A Question for Those of You Who Don't Live in the U.S. (if there's any)

[Mr Flibble]

I love the way my Mum takes on all the PC stuff.

I watched her make some poor twerp squirm the other day ( he called her differently abled) by saying 'I'm paralysed, not fucking stupid'

Go Mum!

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by KTC

I judge people on a person to person basis. I don't care about borders. What are they? Have you ever touched a border? They don't exist.

Not George W. Bush's border. We'll have walls!

[HeronW]

Must say I do like how swearing in French sounds so--elegant: Zut! Merde! Cochonne!

Came across a hilariously translated line on osteoporosis from the Spanish: instead of Widow's Hump it was done as: Hump the Widow.

Felt like saying: You go girl!

[DamaNegra]

Originally Posted by melaniehoo

I've lived in Mexico for over a year now and I'm a gringa. I call myself gringa, my husband calls me that, and our American AND Canadian friends are gringos. There's even an item at a restaurant we go to called a gringa. My husband jokes he'll have the gringa and I playfully remind him he already has one.

Yum!! Gringas!!! I love gringas!!



Now that's a seriously sexy gringa!

Originally Posted by Melaniehoo

My point is I've never heard it used in a derogatory way. That's what they call us, same as we'd call someone Asian or black. I don't have an explanation for the why - although I think Ray & Dama covered that - but if they want to call someone stupid, they call them idiota or cabron.

My grandfather tells this anecdote, of a very good friend of his who was from the US but had lived in Mexico a very long time. One day, the friend approached my grandad and said:

"You know? I've been living in Mexico for 10 years and I've just realized that pinche and gringo are two different words!"

Pinche gringo is like saying damn gringo. The 'pinche' part is the one that makes it insulting. FWIW, the guy was laughing when he told my grandfather that. He thought it was hilarious.

Originally Posted by Melaniehoo

I'm often called guera, which to my understanding is another word for white/pale/blond person and it's not considered offensive either. A fruit stand we frequent is called La Guera because she's pale with light eyes. For whatever reason skin color is still used to define people, but I don't see them discriminating because of it.

Actually, no. They'll call you 'güero' or 'güera' if they think you have $$$$. I've been called güera and I have brown hair and brownish skin. I've seen people with black hair and dark skin being called 'güero' because, hey! They looked like they had money, and güero is like the old 'Don', it's a sign of respect.

Originally Posted by Bartholomew

US culture, especially in this era, leans toward hyper-preciseness, and anything less is considered rude. Frankly, this is stupid. The physically challenged are still cripples, African-Americans are still black, and no amount of bloated feel-good English is every going to make me start calling blind people The Visually Challenged.

Actually, PC is practically non-existant in Mexico, except as a joke. Black people are still black people and cripples are still cripples. They don't get offended because, well, there's just nothing to be offended about. A word is a word, and if it is not spoken with ill-intent, then it is not harmful. I can call anyone 'friend' and use it in the most derogatory way possible and people are going to be offended. In fact, it's already happened. Words are only powerful when given power by the people. It takes two people for an offense to ocur: one to say something offensive and another one to actually pay attention to the ofense. I think people are just forgetting this very simple truth: words cannot offend you unless you let them.

Originally Posted by Bartholomew

Do you use gringo because it is easier than saying Estadounidense? If someone repeatedly insisted on using Estadounidense, would they seem pretentious?

Frankly, I use gringo because it's shorter than estadounidense. Also, I've come to see it as a term of endearment instead of derogatory. Estadounidense is much more formal.

Originally Posted by melaniehoo

The first time I heard my Mexican sister-in-law refer to her nephew as a "negrito" I almost fell over. I was very offended and told my husband he should tell her that's an awful thing to say. He explained that they don't think of it that way - the kid had gotten a lot of sun that day and looked darker than normal so she called him negrito.

But that's cute! I used to get called "negrita" all the time when I was a kid because I spent lots and lots of hours under the sun and got all tanned. I loved being called "negrita"!

Originally Posted by melaniehoo

Because my culture (US) has drilled it into our heads that everything must be PC, as you stated. Living here has relaxed me a lot.

Yeah. You people all need to relax and have a beer. Seriously. A nice, cold, delicious beer.

And afterwards, when we're all drunk as hell, we can start hugging and singing El Rey and then we're going to eat street tacos that contain all the bacteria and bugs ever known to man but the sheer quantities of alcohol in our stomachs will be enough to sterilize anythig and we'll be able to enjoy the evening.

Sounds like a plan, no?

[HeronW]

Oh, what's the recipe for the food type gringas?

[DamaNegra]

Uh, well, it's tacos al pastor in a flour tortilla with cheese in it. I'm not really sure what's in the meat for tacos al pastor (the red thing on the pic) and, frankly, I'm not sure I want to know It's still delicious, though.

A variant of the gringa is el pirata (the pirate). You just grab a flour tortilla and put some beef and cheese on it. Add a little lemon, some red salsa, cilantro and chopped onion. Yum!

[My-Immortal]

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

Well, Mexicans in general don't have a great opinion of Americans in general.

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

The very first thing Mexicans think when you (generic you) mention the word gringo is 'stupid'. In an exercise in stereotypes we did at my school, there was an almost 100% consensus that gringo=stupid. People in Mexico are always amazed at all the money gringos have to spend in schools and the incredibly great public school system gringos have, gringos are still able to remain as ignorant about everything as they are.

Oh, and also there's some resentment because they snatched the term 'American'. What else? Foreign policy. I'm not touching the 9-11 subject with a 200 mile pole. No sir. But Mexicans tend to think US foreign policy sucks big time. Actually, the US has become a joke on that subject. I think evereyone here's aware of that, so I don't need to further elaborate.

Also, gringos are regarded as way too materialistic.

Originally Posted by maestrowork

Not George W. Bush's border. We'll have walls!

Maestro, considering the opinions Mexicans have of Americans, is that such a bad thing?

What's that saying - good fences make good neighbors?

Another thing I find truly amazing though, is that for all the disdain the Mexicans appear to have for Americans - millions of them are more than willing to break the law to come into this country, use our resources, earn money, and send that money back to their own country. Aside from oil, that's the Mexicans greatest asset.

But then, maybe Dama does have a point about us being stupid. What other country in this world would allow law-breakers to do what is being done in our country with little or no punishment? Even Mexicans treat their illegal immigrants worse than we treat ours.

So maybe we should wise up. Maybe we should enforce our laws. Maybe we should change our foreign policy - and let people take care of themselves while we take care of our own first for a change. As a super-power, why should we have to 'police' the world? Why don't we just sit out for a while and see what happens? And if trouble does start up, and people turn to us looking for help, we'll shrug and point to Mexico and say, 'Hey, why don't you step up and do something about it?"

(oh, and this was all posted without any derogatory tone)

Take care all -

[DamaNegra]

Originally Posted by My-Immortal

And if trouble does start up, and people turn to us looking for help, we'll shrug and point to Mexico and say, 'Hey, why don't you step up and do something about it?"

We'd be doomed!!!!

Never turn to the Mexicans if you want to get something done

[Jersey Chick]

Originally Posted by maestrowork

Not George W. Bush's border. We'll have walls!

Not walls - a fence!

Seriously, I hate the whole PC thing - I'm short, farsighted, and suffer from blonde-itis on occasion. Oh, and I'm left handed. I'm not vertically-optically-color-folicly-dextrously challenged.

Yeah - because changing the name to make it sound nicer changes the condition as well. Talk about stupid. George Carlin put it best in reference to Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder - "If we were still calling it shell-shocked, vets would get the kind of care they really need."

[Nakhlasmoke]

Originally Posted by Paichka

...
When I went to South Africa, I was 19 years old and in college, working on a fossil dig in Mohale's Gate. That's near-ish (1 hour north, IIRC) to Johannesburg. Anyway, we went to a bar that our cook's husband owned (they were both...I think 'Afrikaaner' is considered impolite now, but South Africans of Dutch descent). At the bar, the girls (all dressed pretty conservatively -- loose t-shirts and jeans) were pestered UNMERCIFULLY by the local men. We're talking dudes the same age as my father, or older, who were harrassing us to go home and sleep with them. One dude (the mayor!) got plowed and told me he wanted to take me home and eh...do bad things to me. Exact quote. Another guy, affiliated with the University of Witswatersrand, told me he wanted to take me home and tie me up in his basement. I was, to say the least, a little freaked out. The whole reason, apparently, was because all they knew of American girls they'd learned on MTV -- the general consensus was that American girls were slutty.

You can call then Afrikaaners*, that's what they are, just don't call them Dutchmen or rockspiders. :P

And they weren't doing that to you because you were American, they were doing that to you because you were female and of a certain age, in a bar. Seriously; older white male S Africans are some of the most misogynistic, backward, disgusting cave dwellers you will ever have the displeasure to meet.

Sexual harassment is a joke here.

*Before people start calling me racist/whatever, my mother is an Afrikaaner.

I've worked in the service industry in SA, met a lot of American tourists. Some were really friendly and great, others were mouth breathers who should never be allowed out the home, but the same goes for all tourists, really.

I did once punch an American for telling me how shit my country was and how America was so much better. Not that I'm proud of that, mind you.

[poetinahat]

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

I may get flamed and hated and whatnot for this, but....

10,000 people died this week in China due to the earthquake. More people died in Myanmar on a cyclone. There have been more than 140,000 deaths in Iraq since the war started. How many people die in violent terrorist attacks in Israel and Palestina? All these tragedies make the headlines for a week, tops. 2000 gringos die on a tragic terrorist attack and, almost 7 years later, the world hasn't heard the end of it.

You won't get flamed and hated for this comment, but it's in pretty poor taste. (ETA: Or, at a minimum, it's mean-spirited. That's my opinion, and I don't call into question its veracity, but it's not a fair comparison, and Israel/Palestine attacks are constantly in the news. It's only because of their regular occurences that each individual attack doesn't get more play; there are too many to keep up with.)

What's more, it contradicts your own definition of how you mean the term 'gringo' ("not all Americans are gringos"), so in your terms, it's either a heat-of-the-moment slip, or it's intended to be derogatory.

It's easy to be fair-minded when everybody's getting along; it's when the blood starts boiling that we need to work harder to watch what we say.

[Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

I may get flamed and hated and whatnot for this, but....

10,000 people died this week in China due to the earthquake. More people died in Myanmar on a cyclone. There have been more than 140,000 deaths in Iraq since the war started. How many people die in violent terrorist attacks in Israel and Palestina? All these tragedies make the headlines for a week, tops. 2000 gringos die on a tragic terrorist attack and, almost 7 years later, the world hasn't heard the end of it.

And it will probably remain that way for a good, long time. We have a strong history of holding a fucking grudge. There are still people alive in this country who hate the Japanese because they bombed Pearl Harbor. And that was during a war with clear cut borders and uniforms.

A fraction of the people died over that, and it was in the laid back Hawaiian islands. The twin towers were in New York, the land of, "Give me back my gum before I stab you in the eye, too late," and wiped out one of our national monuments.

And also, you need to keep in mind that the trade center was an international hub. Scan the death lists--you'll find more than a few mèxicanos, I'll wager.

[JimmyB27]

Originally Posted by KTC

I judge people on a person to person basis. I don't care about borders. What are they? Have you ever touched a border? They don't exist.

Apart from when the nation is an island, as my father is always so quick to pedantically point out when I use this argument.

Originally Posted by IdiotsRUs

I love the way my Mum takes on all the PC stuff.

I watched her make some poor twerp squirm the other day ( he called her differently abled) by saying 'I'm paralysed, not fucking stupid'

Go Mum!

Haha! I like your mum.

[Jersey Chick]

You can't compare 9/11 ( a man-made catastrophe) to the cylcone in Myanmar or the quake in China (natural disasters). And it wasn't simply Americans who died there, but people from all over the world, including the people who ran into the buildings to help absolute strangers.

As for Pearl Harbor - we technically were not involved in WWII at the time. Roosevelt asked for, and received, his declaration of war after December 7, 1941. We were involved prior to that through Lend-Lease, but had not declared anything on anyone, nor had we involved troops at that point. Yes, there is speculation that Roosevelt knew the attack was coming, and allowed it to happen as a way to get us more involved, but that is all it is - speculation. It was, for all intents and purpose, an unprovoked attack. Nearly 1200 men died on the USS Arizona alone - nearly 2400 men died all totaled. Only slightly less than those who were killed on 9/11.

[johnnysannie]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew

And it will probably remain that way for a good, long time. We have a strong history of holding a fucking grudge. There are still people alive in this country who hate the Japanese because they bombed Pearl Harbor. And that was during a war with clear cut borders and uniforms.

.

No.

Go back and take American History over.

When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, the United States was not yet involved in World War II. Although the war had been ongoing in other parts of the world since September 1, 1939, the US maintained a neutral position until Pearl Harbor.

The US declared war on Japan after the attacks on December 7, 1941 (a day that shall live in infamy) and three days later declared war on Germany and Italy AFTER those nations declared war on the US.

[melaniehoo]

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

Yum!! Gringas!!! I love gringas!!



Now that's a seriously sexy gringa!


Actually, no. They'll call you 'güero' or 'güera' if they think you have $$$$. I've been called güera and I have brown hair and brownish skin. I've seen people with black hair and dark skin being called 'güero' because, hey! They looked like they had money, and güero is like the old 'Don', it's a sign of respect.

Really? I hadn't heard that explanation. (Not disputing.) I hear guera more than anything else, usually said as I'm passing a group. It's almost like an alert: "There's a guera coming! Look! Look!" The freakiest is when men say it as we pass each other on the sidewalk. They wait until they're right next to me then whisper it in my ear. *shudder*

Actually, PC is practically non-existant in Mexico, except as a joke. Black people are still black people and cripples are still cripples. They don't get offended because, well, there's just nothing to be offended about. A word is a word, and if it is not spoken with ill-intent, then it is not harmful. I can call anyone 'friend' and use it in the most derogatory way possible and people are going to be offended. In fact, it's already happened. Words are only powerful when given power by the people. It takes two people for an offense to ocur: one to say something offensive and another one to actually pay attention to the ofense. I think people are just forgetting this very simple truth: words cannot offend you unless you let them.

That's so true. I've also noticed that there are a LOT more handicapped/crippled/mutilated people here than I've ever seen in the US. Almost every week I'll see a young man or woman with a fresh wound from losing an arm or leg.

But that's cute! I used to get called "negrita" all the time when I was a kid because I spent lots and lots of hours under the sun and got all tanned. I loved being called "negrita"!

Now I get it, but at the time it seemed so wrong. I still pause when girls call each other gorda, etc, but that's just how it is here.

Yeah. You people all need to relax and have a beer. Seriously. A nice, cold, delicious beer.

And afterwards, when we're all drunk as hell, we can start hugging and singing El Rey and then we're going to eat street tacos that contain all the bacteria and bugs ever known to man but the sheer quantities of alcohol in our stomachs will be enough to sterilize anythig and we'll be able to enjoy the evening.

Sounds like a plan, no?

Por supuesto! We just had a friend in town and she wondered if it's safe to eat from some of those places. I eat there, but I told her not to since her tummy isn't used to it.

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

Uh, well, it's tacos al pastor in a flour tortilla with cheese in it. I'm not really sure what's in the meat for tacos al pastor (the red thing on the pic) and, frankly, I'm not sure I want to know It's still delicious, though.

I've been told it's best not to ask what's in it. I swear I've seen an eyeball staring back at me when I pass those taco places.

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by melaniehoo

My point is I've never heard it used in a derogatory way. That's what they call us, same as we'd call someone Asian or black.

But if you call someone "Oriental" you'll not get a good response. And I know people who call Asians "Oriental" without any malice. It's still a no-no.

So I guess what I'm saying is, some people still think of "gringo" as a derogatory term, even when the users don't think so. It's something to consider.

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

The very first thing Mexicans think when you (generic you) mention the word gringo is 'stupid'. In an exercise in stereotypes we did at my school, there was an almost 100% consensus that gringo=stupid. People in Mexico are always amazed at all the money gringos have to spend in schools and the incredibly great public school system gringos have, gringos are still able to remain as ignorant about everything as they are.

And yet you say "gringo" is not derogatory?

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by Jersey Chick

You can't compare 9/11 ( a man-made catastrophe) to the cylcone in Myanmar or the quake in China (natural disasters). And it wasn't simply Americans who died there, but people from all over the world, including the people who ran into the buildings to help absolute strangers.

As for Pearl Harbor - we technically were not involved in WWII at the time. Roosevelt asked for, and received, his declaration of war after December 7, 1941. We were involved prior to that through Lend-Lease, but had not declared anything on anyone, nor had we involved troops at that point. Yes, there is speculation that Roosevelt knew the attack was coming, and allowed it to happen as a way to get us more involved, but that is all it is - speculation. It was, for all intents and purpose, an unprovoked attack. Nearly 1200 men died on the USS Arizona alone - nearly 2400 men died all totaled. Only slightly less than those who were killed on 9/11.

I know it's a touchy subject and I do think it's not fair to compare 9/11 with earthquake in China or the 2004 tsunami in which over 150,000 died. Still, you have to admit, many Americans are kind of isolated, somewhat ethnocentric. Many Americans still think the 3000 deaths are the worst thing ever happened to mankind. I think in that aspect, it's rather narrow-minded in a way.

[Jcomp]

Originally Posted by maestrowork

I know it's a touchy subject and I do think it's not fair to compare 9/11 with earthquake in China or the 2004 tsunami in which over 150,000 died. Still, you have to admit, many Americans are kind of isolated...

I think this ties in somewhat with how some people in America see the recent catastrophes overseas as some sort of apocalyptic omen. Cyclone Nargis (Myanmar), the recent earthquake and even the 2004 tsunami are all horrible events, but hardly unprecedented, but people seem not to realize this.

That said, there's also a sense of invulnerability that the United States has had, which is sort of inherent with being among the world's most powerful and advanced nations. When Katrina hit one of my personal thoughts was "Over one-thousand people aren't supposed to die in a hurricane in the 21st Century United States." I maintain still that this was not an unreasonable thought, and a lot of things had to conspire to create that catastrophe.

So when something like that happens in the U.S., yeah, we tend to make a big deal of it because we're just not as accustomed to such tragedies as other countries are. This isn't just symptomatic of the U.S., but of humanity in general. People who aren't accustomed to violence and tragedy tend to make a bigger deal of it than people who see it more frequently.

[melaniehoo]

Originally Posted by maestrowork

But if you call someone "Oriental" you'll not get a good response. And I know people who call Asians "Oriental" without any malice. It's still a no-no.

So I guess what I'm saying is, some people still think of "gringo" as a derogatory term, even when the users don't think so. It's something to consider.

Anytime I hear someone say Oriental I always correct them. As for gringo, if my dictionary makes no reference to it being derogatory (it does with other words) and native Spanish speakers say it's not derogatory, shouldn't those opinions carry more weight than non-Spanish speakers? I can call someone a man and make it sound bad - like Dama said - but that doesn't mean the word by definition is offensive.

Originally Posted by maestrowork

And yet you say "gringo" is not derogatory?

I think her point is being misinterpreted. She's not saying that the definition of gringo is stupid, but that gringos (non-Spanish speaking foreigners) are thought of as stupid, in a generalized way. When you skip over the conversation since she made that point it ignores the progress we've made here.

[DamaNegra]

A lot of people seem to be misquoting this post, so in the spirit of just PLEASE LET THAT GO, I edited it.

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

The very first thing Mexicans think when you (generic you) mention the word estadounidense is 'stupid'. In an exercise in stereotypes we did at my school, there was an almost 100% consensus that US Americans=stupid (on the other hand, though, we labeled ourselves, as a race, either lazy or drunk).

Happy now?

[jannawrites]

Originally Posted by melaniehoo

I can call someone a man and make it sound bad - like Dama said - but that doesn't mean the word by definition is offensive.

I agree with this. It's about the intention behind such words.

When words are used in a fashion other than for what they were originally intended, they become, in many eyes, synonymous with that intent. But the word isn't, fundamentally, defined any differently.

IMHO.

[Jersey Chick]

The closer something hits to home, of course the more it will impact you. A cyclone half a world away - while absolutely tragic - doesn't make you stop and think "This could happen to me." So of course to us, it's going to be more tragic. 9/11 affected the people in lower Manhattan more than it affected me, and it affected me more than someone on the other side of the country.

And when something like the tsunami hit - we helped. We sent aid. Yes, Bush was slow to act (speed really isn't his forte - remember how long it took to get help to New Orleans and the rest of the Gulf coast?), but what was the reaction when we sent aid? Complaints that it wasn't enough. That's what bugs me - it's too slow, it's not enough, give us more. It's okay for anyone to speak out about how rotten they think America is and how ignorant and selfish Americans are, but that doesn't stop them from holding out their hands when they need something from us.

[DamaNegra]

Originally Posted by Jersey Chick

And when something like the tsunami hit - we helped.

Ok, I'll try to lighten the mood on this thread with some Mexican stupidity

Shortly after the tsunami hit, a Mexican actress was being interviewed (for something totally unrelated to the tragedy) and she came up with this gem:

"Oh, I'm shocked! I'm positively shocked at all the tragedy caused by the giant surimi in Asia!"