A Question for Those of You Who Don't Live in the U.S. (if there's any)

[Staroffurby]

All this talk of freedom, true freedom does not exist. If it did anarchy would rule with no taxes being paid. Laws have to be in place to protect people and organise life. The problems come when these laws are there to benefit the minority not the majority, or the people in power abuse the position.

In my view being allowed to have and use a gun is just plain stupid. Civilised, intelligent people talk and debate not blow each others heads of when they are not happy. Why does the average family with 2.4 children and car on the drive way need a gun? Oh that's right to protect itself from a madman that may have a gun already, what a vicious circle. From what i can see nothing will be done because it would mean upsetting far too many people, and the risk of not being voted at the next election. Guns have no place in a civilised society, well that my little bit put into the debate

[icerose]

Originally Posted by James81

Then they brough John Kerry? lol Weak candidates in the Dem slot put Bush in office. Just like an Obama win in the Democrat slot will almost undoubtedly mean a McCain term.

This is exactly why Bush got elected twice. The alternatives were awful and still the races were close.

Originally Posted by pdr

The O.E.D.C. figures are dismissed with a comment to the effect that they don't matter, but Japan's education system needs to be Americanised then it will be the best.
Sigh!

Sorry I'm snipping your post because it's rather long. I have never heard anyone inside the USA say that the US school system is the best. The pretty much universal feelings are that it's broken and needs a total overhaul. I would prefer the German school system myself where you advance in each part of the education as you learn it, rather than everyone stuck in the same classroom. If you can be lvl 12 science, lvl 9 english, lvl 3 math, at 8 years old, so be it. You'll learn everything at your own pace.

2.
Jealousy has been mentioned as a cause of dislike, jealousy from the rest of the world because of the wonderful American standard of living and life style.

Whilst Americans continue to say this, they fail to recognise the real reason for so much anger against them, and America will continue to be the target of terrorists.
Your cheap cost of living and life style are only yours at the expense of the rest of the world. The poverty in Asia and Africa, your near neighbour Mexico, and the rest of Central and South America, is directly attributable to US policies.

And when it comes to giving something back, well, where aid is tied to trade, where aid is tied to political policy, where aid means continual interference in your own country's govt policies and cultural practises, then of course people are going to be angry and resentful.

Call me slow, but I really don't get this. I don't see how our life styles are at the cost of the rest of the world, and our aid, we're finding out, is actually a bad thing for those countries as it makes them dependant rather than independant. If you're talking about cheap labor, yeah it ticks me off too, we should keep the labor in the US at livable prices, so we can balance out our economy and so forth.

3.
America claims to have a Shrine to Democracy, and to be the world's upholder of every person's democratic right to vote for their govt.
Yet the rest of the world can see and remember the horrors of Central and South America, e.g. Allende in Chile, and point to the muderous, Hitler-type dictators whom America has supported, and is supporting around the world. Often despite the wishes of the majority of the people in a country.
Hypocrisy does not engender respect.

I don't have an answer to this one, I'm not even sure what you're talking about, our history lessons were pretty basic and mostly focused on American history and the events leading up to America's formation. As for supporting the wrong people, sure we've made mistakes. We get in trouble when we support leaders who turn out bad, when we help overthrow leaders we get in trouble for butting in, when we stay out we get in trouble for not using our power to help others. I'm not really sure what people want from the US, if they could spell it out, perhaps that would make us a better nation to the rest of the world?

4.
Cultural vandalism.
When America makes trade deals, or leans on other countries to abandon their protective measures, and allow American interests in, one of the first things which happens is that Americans buy into TV, newspapers, and film. Suddenly the TV local programmes go as they are 'too expensive' to make, (they weren't before the Americans arrived!) and the TV, papers and cinemas are flooded with American information, programmes, and films and, as some of you here have said, a lot of it is rubbish. <snip>
They don't and this total disregard for other countries, their cultures and their wishes has led to much anti-American feeling.

Again having not really travled, I don't have much of an answer for this, but do we really have that much power that we can take over other people's culture without their sayso? I mean where I live we are very diversified, we have a variety of food restaurants, from greek, italian, mexican, chinese, and so on and we are a really small out of the way town. If people who migrated hundreds of years ago can retain part of their culture and share with others, surely you guys in your own country can find a way to retain your identity. If you don't like a product or whatever, rally against it. That is if you have the freedom to do so. I do understand that some people are in places where they are not allowed to gather and we tend to take it for granted.

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

Yeah, well, sometimes I wonder about this. US Americans are so proud of their freedom, but I have to wonder how free you really are. You know, between PC crap and the general atmosphere of fear (OMG don't say that! They could think you're a terrorist!), I've seen the list of things US Americans are not allowed to say grow and grow. Some attitudes are now forbidden. You can't go to school dressed funny because they'll think you're a killer just waiting to shoot or something.

Just my somewhat uninformed opinion.

So we're in trouble for not being sensative enough to other people, but we aren't free when we try? Sorry, I'm confused. As for people dressing funny, we have kids do it all the time and no one things they're a killer, just dealing with issues in life that are showing through their appearance.

Originally Posted by IdiotsRUs

Your saying that about a country that let my Old Man go wild with an AK47( or was it an Uzi?), without checking if he was a nutbag first? The guy just said, oh you have a passport, here have some bullets and a fricking machine gun.

We haven't outlawed guns totally here ( my FIL has a nice collection) but you do have to prove that a) you aren't loopy and b) you have a valid reason for having one. ( ie you belong to a gun club, or you own land with shooting rights, or you're a farmer who needs to keep the pesky wabbits down). Plus all guns must be kept locked up when not in use ( so that it's difficult to steal one). It doesn't stop gun crime but it does keep it down.

Personally I'd rather have the freedom not to get shot by some random lunatic

Gun restrictions have tightened, but I really don't see how the laws take away personal responsibility for what you do with it.

Cars kill hundreds of thousands of people every single day. Does that then take the responsibility off someone's shoulders because they got behind the wheel and decided to go run down someone on the street? Does it then go back to the manufacturer?

We also have a heavy black market, you can buy anything outside the law, so even if they outlawed and seized every single gun in the US save law enforcement, you'd still have lunatics running around killing people with guns. The UK certainly isn't immune to gun violence. Look at all the trouble they've had with the IRA.

[Jersey Chick]

Originally Posted by Deb Kinnard

Of course we have a list. I just can't quote it (or part thereof) here or I'll be labeled a racist and a bigot. When was the last time you heard a person referred to by a hackneyed old label referring to his/her ethnicity?

Mom used to say someday we'd have etiquette laws in the US. I laughed at her and told her it'd never happen. Sorry, Mom.

As far as I know, there is no law that prohibits you from using bigoted terms. You will not go to jail, or get arrested or just disappear - and being labeled as something is the consequence of having the right to say it.

There's a difference between choosing not to say something and not being allowed to say it. No one will stop you, but you need to be prepared to deal with the ramifications. That's the price you pay for that freedom. So if you choose not to say something, it's your choice - not someone making it for you or taking it away altogether.

[Siddow]

The only thing that I can think of on that 'list' is saying that you have a bomb at the airport.

[Mr Flibble]

The UK certainly isn't immune to gun violence. Look at all the trouble they've had with the IRA.

No we aren't immune ( and the IRA troubles have stopped. They were mostly bombs anyway. What do you call a man with a hotel on his head? Norman Tebbit)

But our population is just under 1/3 of yours. In 2006, 59 people were killed by guns. ( 210 if you include suicide and accident)Now if I multiply by 3 and a bit, that should equal your gun homicide rate right? so call it 200 ( or 650 incl suicide and accident). In the USA in the figures I've found over 8000 people where killed by guns.( approx half can possibly be attributed to suicide) So your rate of homicide by gun is approx 20 times that of ours. Do you really think this has nothing to do with gun laws?

BTW, of those people who die in cars -- how many were deliberately killed?

TEA: to be fair In a study of 35 countries to find a correlation between gun ownership and firearm homicide, if you don't include the US, there is no correlation. There is only a correlation ( to a scientific standard) if you include the US. So maybe it's just you

[Tirjasdyn]

Originally Posted by IdiotsRUs

TEA: to be fair In a study of 35 countries to find a correlation between gun ownership and firearm homicide, if you don't include the US, there is no correlation. There is only a correlation ( to a scientific standard) if you include the US. So maybe it's just you

And how many of those were crimes committed with illegally obtained guns vs. legally obtain guns.

Having a gun does not a criminal make.

[Staroffurby]

Originally Posted by Tirjasdyn

And how many of those were crimes committed with illegally obtained guns vs. legally obtain guns.

Having a gun does not a criminal make.

Regardless of the gun being legally owned or illegally owned, gun crime is a problem. Just because you have a gun in America does not make you a criminal, that much i understand. If the government did something to stop so many black market imports then the risk of some madman running around with a gun is limited. So the need to have a gun at home for protection is removed.

[icerose]

Originally Posted by Staroffurby

Regardless of the gun being legally owned or illegally owned, gun crime is a problem. Just because you have a gun in America does not make you a criminal, that much i understand. If the government did something to stop so many black market imports then the risk of some madman running around with a gun is limited. So the need to have a gun at home for protection is removed.

It's still, however, two separate issues.

Most of the gun crime involves illegal gun use/possession, often gang violence and underage crimes. I wish I had specific figures but they don't break it down. Around here at least, if there's a gun crime, chances are it's a kid holding the gun who shouldn't have it anyway.

And I disagree on the need for a gun at home for protection being removed.

I was 7 months pregnant with my first child, my husband worked graveyards at the time and we were in a bad neighborhood. Our neighbor, with at least four of his friends, tried to break into our house. I had a gun and it at the very least kept them out of my house, who knows what they would have done once inside. At seven months along I had a hard time tying my shoes let alone fending off five full grown men.

Tell me then, had I not had a gun, what should I have done? Oh and I called the police and my husband as soon as I realized what was going on. It took my husband ten minutes to run home (Which was dang fast) and the police officer 20 minutes.

The police officer commented the next day that I wasn't at home to my husband, he said that the chances are reduced they'll break in if I'm at home. He said "They could also break in and rape my wife if she's at home." The officer replied "We could arrest them for that."

Yeah, like I'm going to trust people like that with my own personal safety.

[Staroffurby]

Originally Posted by icerose

It's still, however, two separate issues.

Most of the gun crime involves illegal gun use/possession, often gang violence and underage crimes. I wish I had specific figures but they don't break it down. Around here at least, if there's a gun crime, chances are it's a kid holding the gun who shouldn't have it anyway.

I do not see it as separate issues. The main reason the average family has a gun is for protection. So if a nasty troubled teen from down the road with an illegal gun does something then you can shoot the intruder. If the black market was not there then no need for house holds to have legal guns. The two are linked, people feel safer with a gun in the house (ironic in my view) because the fear (oh here we go again the word fear, this time not followed by the word terrorist or ism) of someone else with a gun.

They need to be removed from civilised society.

Sorry to hear of your story, i really am. I could not have lived with myself shooting an intruder, pulling that trigger and killing another human being i feel is wrong. Police should be doing the protecting and clearing street of trouble not the public vigilante style.

Glad to hear your ok.

[Jersey Chick]

Most of the people I know who own guns are either police officers or people who hunt. And they are usually the most careful about said guns and gun safety.

ETA: I don't really know where I stand on guns. I don't think making them illegal will make them go away. After all, drugs are illegal and they are all over the place.

[johnnysannie]

Originally Posted by Staroffurby

Regardless of the gun being legally owned or illegally owned, gun crime is a problem. Just because you have a gun in America does not make you a criminal, that much i understand. If the government did something to stop so many black market imports then the risk of some madman running around with a gun is limited. So the need to have a gun at home for protection is removed.

CRIME is a problem; if guns were outlawed, gun crime would not vanish. Criminals would still have access to and ownership of guns. And if someone is bent on violence, there are many other weapons that include but are not limited to knives and baseball bats.

A high profile murder case in my area some years back involved high school students who killed their classmate with their baseball bats. Lack of a gun in hand didn't prevent their violence.

I have been around guns my entire life. I have close blood relatives who are in law enforcement and many hunters. I learned to shoot at an early age and gun safety even earlier.

[Staroffurby]

Originally Posted by johnnysannie

CRIME is a problem; if guns were outlawed, gun crime would not vanish. Criminals would still have access to and ownership of guns. And if someone is bent on violence, there are many other weapons that include but are not limited to knives and baseball bats.

A high profile murder case in my area some years back involved high school students who killed their classmate with their baseball bats. Lack of a gun in hand didn't prevent their violence.

I have been around guns my entire life. I have close blood relatives who are in law enforcement and many hunters. I learned to shoot at an early age and gun safety even earlier.

I know guns would not be impossible to get buts what wrong with making it harder for criminals to get?

Oh and by the way i too know how to handle a gun and have been around them most of my life, including have law enforcement officers etc.... I know an English bloke that can use a gun, rare! So that does not come in to the debate as i am not accusing you of misusing a gun and your not accusing me. The fact remains a gun is designed for one thing to kill. A baseball bat is used for baseball. The fact is you can kill someone with a biro if you know how.

We will have to agree to disagree because it seems this is not getting anywhere. I still stand by the fact civilised society has no place for a gun, sorry if that offends anyone. Maybe i am just a big hippy at heart, but i love being that way and see no problem with it

[Tirjasdyn]

Originally Posted by Staroffurby

Regardless of the gun being legally owned or illegally owned, gun crime is a problem. Just because you have a gun in America does not make you a criminal, that much i understand. If the government did something to stop so many black market imports then the risk of some madman running around with a gun is limited. So the need to have a gun at home for protection is removed.

Untrue. You miss the fundamental reason why we have guns.

[Tirjasdyn]

Originally Posted by Staroffurby

I know guns would not be impossible to get buts what wrong with making it harder for criminals to get?

Oh and by the way i too know how to handle a gun and have been around them most of my life, including have law enforcement officers etc.... I know an English bloke that can use a gun, rare! So that does not come in to the debate as i am not accusing you of misusing a gun and your not accusing me. The fact remains a gun is designed for one thing to kill. A baseball bat is used for baseball. The fact is you can kill someone with a biro if you know how.

We will have to agree to disagree because it seems this is not getting anywhere. I still stand by the fact civilised society has no place for a gun, sorry if that offends anyone. Maybe i am just a big hippy at heart, but i love being that way and see no problem with it

Thing is...the gun laws we already have are not enforced. I'm a firm believer they should be. But also that some are silly.

But making more laws isn't going to help. Hate to rain but we don't live in nearly the civilized society you might.

[Staroffurby]

Originally Posted by Tirjasdyn

Untrue. You miss the fundamental reason why we have guns.

No wrong i don't! Thats not what the thread is about.

What i am doing is what the thread asked for an outsiders view of America, thats what i am giving. This does not reflect my view on American people in anyway. So i have given my view thats all it is, but it seems my view is wrong, how can this be? Maybe it could be wrong if i started saying total rubbish like the country is made of blue cheese

All i am saying is keeping any implement designed to kill and having them so readily available is not good. I just don't see how the statement can be wrong, it different to what others are saying but is that not the beauty of a debate? We are all different and that's wonderful

[Staroffurby]

Originally Posted by Tirjasdyn

Thing is...the gun laws we already have are not enforced. I'm a firm believer they should be. But also that some are silly.

But making more laws isn't going to help. Hate to rain but we don't live in nearly the civilized society you might.

To be honest not be in America i don't know how they are enforced, but more laws is not going to work i agree.

England civilised you must be joking, thats why i plan on moving out of the country in the future

[DamaNegra]

Originally Posted by Staroffurby

people feel safer with a gun in the house (ironic in my view) because the fear (oh here we go again the word fear, this time not followed by the word terrorist or ism) of someone else with a gun.

My grandfather used to have a gun in his house for protection, in case of a thief. One day, a thief broke in, found the gun and held his whole family at gunpoint before stealing some valuables and then leaving. The next day, my grandfather got rid of the gun.

No one in my family has owned a gun since.

[DamaNegra]

There's one specific case of "oh please, these things don't happen in a free country" I can remember off the top of my head.

http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site...d=415898&rfi=6

I remembered being shocked when I read this. For me, it doesn't really matter wether the woman got or didn't get jaitime. Trying to prosecute someone for swering in the privacy of their own home (and with good reason too! toilets overflowing are gross and messy) is just WRONG.

[Tirjasdyn]

Originally Posted by Staroffurby

No wrong i don't! Thats not what the thread is about.

What i am doing is what the thread asked for an outsiders view of America, thats what i am giving. This does not reflect my view on American people in anyway. So i have given my view thats all it is, but it seems my view is wrong, how can this be? Maybe it could be wrong if i started saying total rubbish like the country is made of blue cheese

All i am saying is keeping any implement designed to kill and having them so readily available is not good. I just don't see how the statement can be wrong, it different to what others are saying but is that not the beauty of a debate? We are all different and that's wonderful

lol. I hear this arguement a lot. We have a Vegas trip every year in which an English woman joins us. She's great company but one of the things we do is go shooting (targets) and we get an earful every time. Of course she also thinks we're barbaric for eating at buffets but to each their own.

It's a fundamental difference on how this country is built...in direct opposition to yours actually...though in some ways not so different. We have guns to protect us from criminals and our government.

It's something that tends to be forgotten or untaught I guess.

[Siddow]

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

My grandfather used to have a gun in his house for protection, in case of a thief. One day, a thief broke in, found the gun and held his whole family at gunpoint before stealing some valuables and then leaving. The next day, my grandfather got rid of the gun.

No one in my family has owned a gun since.

The thief didn't take the gun?

[icerose]

Anyway this is getting pretty off kilter. Let's get back to the actual OP's question.

[Jersey Chick]

I think this one's been beaten pretty far into the ground already.

[DamaNegra]

Originally Posted by Jersey Chick

I think this one's been beaten pretty far into the ground already.

Ya thing? Even Indiana Jones is going to have a hard time digging this one up. (bad joke, so kill me)

[veinglory]

The main thing that boggles me is the idea that OP might be serious in thinking *everyone* here might plausibly be American. I know the US is pretty dominant online but the rest of the world would still make up about 25% of the membership on most forums.

[pdr]

beaten to death for Americans!

The USSR used to say that America had the best propaganda system in the world and the Americans were the most brain washed people on the planet. Before I travelled in America, worked with Americans, and met a lot of Americans, I used to regard that as typical clunky Russian propaganda.

It wasn't though was it?

Are the majority of Americans truly like some of the posters here, and truly do not know what their govt has been doing in the last fifty years in the way of damage to other countries, and other people, and other cultures?

And do the majority of Americans actually believe that they have a right above the rest of the world to all the world's resources? And if they can't have those resources they can depose a govt or start a war to get them?

The attitude which has come across in some of these posts seems to say that you do believe you have the right to whatever you want, where ever it is. And that you can tear down any govt which is not to your liking even when it is plainly the peoples' choice.

And you wonder why Americans are not popular?