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Old 05-28-2008, 12:33 PM   #1
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Why does atheist = bad person?
Why is it always automatically assumed that as an atheist I cannot live a good life? I get so fed up with people assuming I have no morals or that I have no sense of right and wrong because I don't believe in a God or, more specifically, their God.

I have always tried to respect others beliefs even when they don't respect mine and I have a healthy respect for the religious people I know. I think it's wonderful that their religion brings them comfort...I just don't buy into it. Yet I know very few people that can respect my non-believing.

This is not meant to be a "I hate disrespectful Christians" discussion because that couldn't be further from the truth. I guess I'm just a little fed up with not getting respect in return for the respect I give others simply because I don't go to church and don't share their faith.

I have morals...contrary to popular belief.
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:30 PM   #2
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Some people have decided in advance that all or most atheists are nasty, unpleasant and less moral than theists.

I steer clear of those people in real life and have started to avoid them on the internet. Life is too short and precious to waste trying to reason with someone who is determined to dislike atheists.
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:31 PM   #3
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I get a similar response when I say I'm a practising agnostic. I seriously look at other religions but I've not found one yet that I believe God would observe and say, 'That is right. I like that.'
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Old 05-28-2008, 06:21 PM   #4
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Most people believe that ethical absolutes come from God, ergo, one who does not believe in God must not believe in the ethical absolutes. Thats the primary reason. There are a variety of problems with this belief, but that seems to be what they believe.

Secondly, it is common for cult leaders to attempt to isolate their followers from non-members, hence their fondness for compounds in Texas. Amongst more mainstream religions, this tendancy has declined, but continues to have vestiges. Many people in mainstream religions would have no problem with their children hanging out with members of similar mainstream religions, would balk at having them hang out with an atheist or a very different religious person. Hence the perhaps subconcious discouragement given. "They just aren't our kind of people." sort of thing. Many religious groups are not open to the idea that people should be exposed to rival belief systems, hence laws for blasphemy, punishments for apostasy, Fair Gaming, and a variety of other discouragements.
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Old 05-28-2008, 06:48 PM   #5
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I think there's a sense of fear that you might be right and there goes their whole belief system. Anyone who has grappled with their faith has to consider that there might not be a higher power - and how scary would that be to those who are absolutely convinced otherwise.
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Old 05-28-2008, 06:53 PM   #6
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I hear you, Kristie. It appalls me to realize the vast number of people who believe that atheists have no ethics or morals. Does that mean it's safe to conclude that those people only refrain from infidelity, assault, murder, and such only because their religion forbids it? Of course not.

People can reach valid conclusions about what's right and wrong without it being part of religious teachings. Philosophy has a huge sub-area devoted to how we humans do that. Most scholars believe the desire for self-preservation comes first, then the desire to do no harm to other beings capable of feeling. God's got nothing to do with it, although many of the world's religions teach that one should not harm others.

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Old 05-28-2008, 07:51 PM   #7
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Through the ages, governments and religions have worked together to use fear as a means of keeping people in line. In the early days of European nation building, kings were appointed by popes. Every so often, governments and dominant churches would change on the heels of a religious war. But after the dust settled, the collusive link remained.

It's still there today, regardless of the platitutes we mumble about separation of church and state. If you think one's religious beliefs have little to do with the way our leaders get to be our leaders, watch the running cable news hoo-ha surrounding Obama, McCain, and their spiritual mentors-advisors-supporters. (Poor old Barack gets the double whammy: At the same time he tries to prove he's the right flavor of Christian, his detractors use his own middle name to suggest that he could actually be--gasp!--a Muslim! Can you imagine what would happen if he put the issue to rest by exercising both his freedom of speech and the ultimate freedom of religion? I renounce Reverend Jeremiah Wright. In fact, I renounce Christianity--and all other faiths to boot!)

It's too bad that freedom of religion has never quite included freedom from religion. For what it's worth, I consider myself more of an agnostic than an atheist. And I think my moral compass works pretty well. But I'll also admit to having an ace up my sleeve: As one who was christened Catholic and raised Methodist, I know that the worst I can do is purgatory.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:13 PM   #8
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I find this to be kind of shocking, actually. As a Christian, I can't imagine saying something like "you're an atheist so you have no morals or ethics". It's just a stupid thing to say and patently untrue. You can give 'em a dose of Romans 2:14-15 next time, Kristie. Hopefully you're not feeling that same attitude around AW. I think you're a groovy chick, fwiw.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:34 PM   #9
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Unfortunately, many people believe that morals/ethics come from [their] god. If god isn't there to threaten or bribe them, people won't do the right thing.

It's the basic idea that people are basically bad unless forced to be good. That's why a lot (but not all) of Christians talk a lot about being 'tempted' and how god leads them from temptation and blesses them when they avoid evil inclinations.

I think that many atheists believe that people are basically good and honest. We don't feel that we need a big eye in the sky to do good.

I've had Christians ask me that since I don't believe in God, how come I am helpful. friendly, honest, loyal (etc.) and they seem mystified when I explain that ethical actions and alturism are good for the species. Anyway, doing good is it's own reward.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:48 PM   #10
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Why does atheist = bad person?
...coz Good People go to Heaven... and Atheists can't?
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:48 PM   #11
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My mother had one of the best theories I've ever heard:

Who is truly the more Christian? The guy who goes to church every Sunday and every Holy Day, who spouts from the Bible whenever possible, and screws over everyone he meets, cheats on his wife, beats his kids -

or -

The hermit who lives in a cave and is at peace with nature and all that is around him, but chooses not to believe in a god?

Hmm...


(disclaimer - this isn't about Christians, per se, but that was mom's example )
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:52 PM   #12
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I was brought up as a Christian, which, when I was little, seemed really simple. The problem with things like that is that you grow to see how the world really works, and the simple basis for Christianity crumbles.

I'm not an athiest. I believe in God and I pray, but I disagree with many of the Christian teachings upon which I was brought up. I think it's wrong to judge or imply anything about the character of someone I don't know, and I disagree with those self-righteous panphlet-wielders who will try to save your soul so they can go to bed or report back to their pastor feeling better about themselves.

Whatever you believe is your right and even if I didn't agree with what you believed in, I would support your right to believe in it.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumut View Post
I've not found one yet that I believe God would observe and say, 'That is right. I like that.'

Can't find what doesn't exist. Religion is man-made and that's the problem.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:06 PM   #14
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I live in the "Bible Belt." Generally, people who I have told about my reluctance to believe a collection of 4 thousand year old stories, act as though some terrible crisis led me to not believing, and if they were nice enough, I would believe again. That I never believed in the first place is never entertained by them. They think I must have believed at some time because it is in the fiber of the soul to believe. They simply believe this because it is what they were told to believe early on. I tell them that was probably their mother talking to them when they were infants. They don't believe that. I tell them that the stone tablets Moses brought down from Mount Horeb contained the "Code of Hamaraubi," plagiarized nearly to the letter. They don't believe it. I tell them that Noah was originally a chapter in the Babylonian Epic Gilgamesh... they don't believe me. Earlier civilizations informed the creation of their religions as their religions inform both present law and philosophy. I think that ethics can be done without an omnipotent, jealous, and not-to-ethical lightening bolt throwing character. Ethics are about behavior, not punishment. People who believe in deities seem to believe in doing things that they only have to pay for after death. Take Heaven out of the equation, and there is no final reward. I think that people need heaven. They need to think their loved one is at peace and in a better place after they die. This is psychological only, and for the benefit of the living, however it does sooth the pain. I think a lot of people would simply fold if they did not have that hope for the (after death) future. This simply says what an awful world we live in.
Doing things out of fear of retaliation or punishment rather than a belief that good things are good, and heaven or hell is what you make of the world yourself. I stop at stop lights because I know that traffic must be regulated, not because I think the cops will catch me. I mow the grass because it is neighborly and makes for a clean looking environment not because I can be fined 100 dollars to have the city come out and do it. I do not hit the neighbors loud children not because I can be put in jail, but because hitting kids makes them violent and it hurts them. I don't rape, murder, rob, burn down buildings because I would not like that stuff to happen to me. To me, this stuff comes naturally. I do not feel I need to believe that God made these rules. They are simply natural rules that anyone in his right mind would adhere to for the sake of harmony and community.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
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My mother had one of the best theories I've ever heard:
My family's answer to that would be that the guy who goes to church every Sunday and reads the bible every day is the more Christian. Even if he cheats on his wife and beats his kids, at least he's accepted that Jesus died for his sins, so that puts him ahead of the hermit. He's already saved - he just needs a little extra niceness, that's all.

This is one reason I'm no longer in touch with the family.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I think there's a sense of fear that you might be right and there goes their whole belief system. Anyone who has grappled with their faith has to consider that there might not be a higher power - and how scary would that be to those who are absolutely convinced otherwise.
I never thought of it this way...interesting theory and probably more right than most would think.

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Originally Posted by III View Post
I find this to be kind of shocking, actually. As a Christian, I can't imagine saying something like "you're an atheist so you have no morals or ethics". It's just a stupid thing to say and patently untrue. You can give 'em a dose of Romans 2:14-15 next time, Kristie. Hopefully you're not feeling that same attitude around AW.
No, I don't get that attitude here at all, which is really nice. It's why I came here to ask the question...because I felt I would get good answers. And I have.

I get the attitude from someone at work mostly and I've had it. He pretends he's perfect and is always talking about his religion and condeming me for not believing. It's so judgemental and condesending it strikes me as very un-Christian.

And thanks for that link, Jay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelinity View Post
...coz Good People go to Heaven... and Atheists can't?
Hmmmm...good thing I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I'm not being flip, I like your answer because I can see how someone who does believe in those things would see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Chick View Post
My mother had one of the best theories I've ever heard:

Who is truly the more Christian? The guy who goes to church every Sunday and every Holy Day, who spouts from the Bible whenever possible, and screws over everyone he meets, cheats on his wife, beats his kids -

or -

The hermit who lives in a cave and is at peace with nature and all that is around him, but chooses not to believe in a god?

Hmm...
Your mom sounds pretty smart.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by kristie911 View Post

Hmmmm...good thing I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I'm not being flip, I like your answer because I can see how someone who does believe in those things would see it.
...Er, you were being serious! Sorry, I was being flip. Dry joke, see? Atheists can't go to Heaven... coz how can you go to a place you don't believe exists... something like that
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:42 PM   #18
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I assumed you were being sarcastic but actually I can see how someone would use it as an argument. Not a great one...but an argument nonetheless.

Actually, my mom told me once she hated that I wouldn't go to Heaven. She didn't understand that as an atheist, that wasn't really a problem for me.

Unless, of course, I'm totally wrong (which I allow that I could be)...but I'll worry about it when I'm dead.
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
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...coz Good People go to Heaven... and Atheists can't?
I've heard this as a serious response when I've been told that I have to be a horrible person because I'm not a Christian. I've had one relative tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to work around children because I'm not a Christian because I'm such a horrible, evil person. *sigh*

I just hope that she's happy in her little world, just as I'm happy in mine.

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an omnipotent, jealous, and not-to-ethical lightening bolt throwing character.
Zeus--right?
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:44 PM   #20
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Angelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsAngelinity is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Sorry all... no sarcasm intended there... my odd sense on humor seems to be getting in the way.

Quote:
I've heard this as a serious response when I've been told that I have to be a horrible person because I'm not a Christian. I've had one relative tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to work around children because I'm not a Christian because I'm such a horrible, evil person. *sigh*
Don't sweat it, people tend to judge other people based on their own convictions, and the stronger they believe, the swifter and harder they judge. Let it slide and move on.
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:34 AM   #21
Jersey Chick
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Jersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJersey Chick is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
My in-laws are very religious people. And that's cool for them. I'm agnostic, which drives them nuts. They continue to call me an athiest - which I can't even spell tonight - and I have to explain the difference, yadda yadda yadda.

Anyhoo - long story short - I respect their beliefs, even if I don't entirely share them, but they have a tendancy to bug me about church, etc. I married in a church, had my kids baptized, and all, but I did it for my husband (who is not quite so religious since hooking up with the heathen here ). What I want to know is why is it that I can respect their beliefs, but they can't respect mine?

That's how I am about any religion, or lack of one - I don't care if you worship rocks and trees, or nothing at all. It's cool. I respect you. You respect me. It's all good. Too bad more people don't follow that.

And yes, my mom is pretty smart - she does have me for a daughter, after all
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:52 AM   #22
Don Allen
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I hate self righteous zealots that use church as a measuring stick where you store up credits for God. My only problem with atheism is that i'm not sure it exsists, and I quote the famous line, "no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole" which as a lot of validity. It may not be God, it may be a pack of cigarettes, a bottle of booze, the love of a family member, but I do think that in times of great emotional crisis, all humans tend to put faith in something.. Having said that I don't hate goddless commies at all, ( you know I'm teasing Kristie....lol
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:15 AM   #23
Just Jack
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I have the same problem...

I gave this same issue a lot of thought, and I think that people are simply scared of the un-known.

When I tell people that I am an atheist, they are normally shocked, like I am evil incarnate.

But when your raised as a religious person, and brought up that god makes and accounts for everything, you have an expectation that people around you will adhere to the same set of beliefs you do, or at least similar. (I could be wrong, and I know this theory doeson't account for everyone)

So when someone is different form the herd, they are rejected.
They ole' black sheep treatment.

I get it from family alot, they always say stuff like, "Ill pray extra hard for you on Sunday..."

geez
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:38 AM   #24
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veinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
I am glad I don't have that problem. Or people thinking crap like that know better than to tell me about it
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:40 AM   #25
C.bronco
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I don't think faith is a virtue; I think it's a gift. In the end, how we treat eachother is what matters most, no matter what we believe.
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