Book length

The short answer is, it depends. Most large presses whose guidelines I've read ask for a minimum of 80,000 words. Many small presses will accept half that. Some small presses I've seen have a cut-off of 60,000 words. The thing to do is, look for the press you want and then look at their guidelines.
Of course, the real thing to do is to be true to the story first.
My first book was 57,000 words, and it was picked up by a traditional, albeit small press, publisher. The two I'm working on right now, I'm determined to hit that 80,000 word mark to try to attack the big boys.

Just my $.02...

I believe that 80,000 - 100,000 words is the usual "ballpark figure." This probably varies by genre. Fantasy novels are usually longer than detective novels, for instance.

The other day I got a letter from Bantam Dell, saying they require 100,000 words to be considered. I assume that’s for people like me, the unwashed and unpublished, and not for established authors. Still, there’s always the question as to what that 100 thousand means. For a big publisher, it’s probably based on 250 words a page, and not computer count. So you might want to calculate your word count that way, because it will usually be higher, sometimes much higher.
There’s a thread on calculating word count somewhere around here, but I couldn’t find it.

Anyway, 100,000 words equals 400 pages in standard format—25 lines per page, 12 pt Courier New, and one inch margins.

On a related note -- are there any resources for finding out the word count of a published novel? (Other than doing it myself, which I suppose I could do, but would rather not.)

I have a general sense of what 100,000 words "looks" and "feels" like, but it would be useful to compare the WIP with the various chapbooks and doorstops laying around the house.

Sharon Mock said:

On a related note -- are there any resources for finding out the word count of a published novel? (Other than doing it myself, which I suppose I could do, but would rather not.)

I have a general sense of what 100,000 words "looks" and "feels" like, but it would be useful to compare the WIP with the various chapbooks and doorstops laying around the house.

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So much is done to published novels in font choice, kerning, etc., that it can be really difficult to tell.

But with some classic novels, rough but pretty darned close word count would be:

Anne of Green Gables = 100,000 words.
Huckleberry Finn =100,000 words.
Great Expectations = 190,000 words.
Moby Dick = 220,000 words.

For a work in progress, use Courier 12, double-spaced, and with one inch margins. Doing so means that a four hundred page manuscript will be pretty much exactly a 100,000 word novel, as publishers count words.

When using this format, you can safely ignore whatever your word count program says, and simply count each page, full page or partial, as having 250 words, as publishers count them

It's a great way to judge a WIP. Every ten pages is 2,500 words, every 100 pages is 25,000 words, etc.

Adding scenes to your novel? That sounds impossible. Won't it seem like padding to the reader? Cutting out is a lot easier than adding.

Anyway, I think this is crazy. Why would a publishing house want your book to be long? I am way more likely to pick up a short book than a long one.

Catcher in the Rye is only 224 pages. I recently picked up Henry James' The Aspern Papers which is a 112 pages over his more well known novels Portrait of a Lady or Wings of the Dove just because it was shorter.

But I suppose, on the other hand, The Aspern Papers costs $1.50 because of it's length. Maybe it's just a money thing.

But I really think that publishers not accepting shorter books is just silly.

Nonetheless, I say be true to your book. You have to do what's best for your story.

Length

zeprosnepsid said:

But I really think that publishers not accepting shorter books is just silly.

Nonetheless, I say be true to your book. You have to do what's best for your story.

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Each publisher generally has pretty strict length guidelines for each line and type of book. They will not stray outside these guidelines lightly, especially for new writers. Too short is usually better than too long, but there are many reasons why publishers ask for specific lengths of novels. Money, sales numbers, and reader expectations are high on the list.

I do think you have to be true to the novel, but if you wish to write a 100K novel, you can.

But whatever length you write, it will have to fit within the publishers guidelines. This may be 60K for one line, 80K for another line, and 100K or more for another line. Some lines have a bit of wiggle room, say 80-100K, others have almost none.

zeprosnepsid said:

Adding scenes to your novel? That sounds impossible. Won't it seem like padding to the reader? Cutting out is a lot easier than adding.

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Not at all! With my first ms I was really strict with myself over wordcount. After editing and pruning it, I came out with something that I thought fitted established guidelines as to length for my genre and age range. I was pretty proud of it.

So, then I found an editor willing to work with me on it - and what was the first thing he said? 'You're short-changing the story. These characters have more in them than this.' I was flabbergasted. Editors aren't supposed to say that! But he was right. I'd been so keen to stick to what I thought was a publishable length that I'd ignored areas where my story's themes could truly have shone, ignored possibilities that would have brought my characters to life.

By the time we'd finished 'editing', I'd worked out an alternate story strand that showed events from the POV of a different character than my protagonist, lengthened a key battle scene and another crucial scene midway through the story, and added an extra chapter to the end to tie up loose ends! And the novel was ten times better for it.

Adding isn't always padding.

Zolah said:

Adding isn't always padding.

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Very true. Just as many first drafts need to be cut by 10-20%, other first drafts need to be lengthened by the same amount.

"Writers are either putter-inners or taker-outers, and I'm a taker-outer. I want my sentences to be short and sweet and hopefully loaded." --Jonathan
Carroll.

This applies to all parts of a novel. Some writers write long and have to cut later, while otehrs write short and have to add later. There's nothing at all wrong with cutting, and nothing at all wrong with lengthening.

Jamesaritchie said:

For a work in progress, use Courier 12, double-spaced, and with one inch margins. Doing so means that a four hundred page manuscript will be pretty much exactly a 100,000 word novel, as publishers count words.

When using this format, you can safely ignore whatever your word count program says, and simply count each page, full page or partial, as having 250 words, as publishers count them

It's a great way to judge a WIP. Every ten pages is 2,500 words, every 100 pages is 25,000 words, etc.

Click to expand...

I finally got around to fine-tuning the file into 250/page format (previously, though double-spaced Courier 12, it was using a lot of Psion Word defaults). I was not pleased with the results.

Deleting the spaces around the em-dashes (--) made things considerably more bearable. Except, of course, that it made clear how badly I abuse the em-dash!

Still. Unless I find where the masses of excess verbiage are lurking, even getting down to 120,000 manuscript words is going to be a struggle. I foresee going through the manuscript paragraph by paragraph, picking at phrasing to try to get all those two- and three-word final lines back onto the line previous...

What can I say, it's a cat-vacuuming kind of day.

zeprosnepsid said:

Adding scenes to your novel? That sounds impossible. Won't it seem like padding to the reader? Cutting out is a lot easier than adding.

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Don't add scenes. Add story. Add plot and subplot. It'll work.

I'm a bit surprised. I would have bet money that Unca Jim would have told you to write the story until the story is told, then stop. But I agree that writing action and plot is the best way to expand a work. I find it much, much easier than pulling action and plot out of a work. Good luck!

my first novel was 74,000 words, the second 50,000. I'm trying on my new one to get to 75,000.

Julie Worth said:

The other day I got a letter from Bantam Dell, saying they require 100,000 words to be considered. I assume that’s for people like me, the unwashed and unpublished, and not for established authors. Still, there’s always the question as to what that 100 thousand means. For a big publisher, it’s probably based on 250 words a page, and not computer count. So you might want to calculate your word count that way, because it will usually be higher, sometimes much higher.
There’s a thread on calculating word count somewhere around here, but I couldn’t find it.

Anyway, 100,000 words equals 400 pages in standard format—25 lines per page, 12 pt Courier New, and one inch margins.

Click to expand...

Hmm OK, I'm probably really stupid but...100 thousand words is 100 thousands words, whether it's 250 words per page or 300 words per page, isn't it?!?!? What have I missed? (Math is not my strong point. LOL) I've come across this 250 words per page thing before and I don't get it.

clotje said:

Hmm OK, I'm probably really stupid but...100 thousand words is 100 thousands words, whether it's 250 words per page or 300 words per page, isn't it?!?!? What have I missed? (Math is not my strong point. LOL) I've come across this 250 words per page thing before and I don't get it.

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Ah, but "words" are not words. "Words" (from a publisher's point of view) is an estimation of how much space the manuscript takes up. For example, a page full of one-word dialogue takes up the same space as a page-long paragraph, even though I guarantee you that paragraph has more words in it.

I like this explanation of how to format to get that mythical 250/page: http://www.passionatepen.com/formatarticle.htm

Words

clotje said:

Hmm OK, I'm probably really stupid but...100 thousand words is 100 thousands words, whether it's 250 words per page or 300 words per page, isn't it?!?!? What have I missed? (Math is not my strong point. LOL) I've come across this 250 words per page thing before and I don't get it.

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To a publisher, what really matters is how much paper is used to print the book, not how much ink is on the paper. Paper is expensive, but ink is cheap. A page at the end of the chapter that may have only three or four sentences on it still takes a full sheet of paper to publish.

A page filled with short dialogue may have no more than fifty "words" on it, but it takes just as much paper to publish as does a page that is all dense narrative with 450 "words."

When you look at it this way, a word isn't just a word. "Encyclopedia" uses more paper than "I."

Odds are you'll come reasonably close to guidelines however you count the words, but using the Courier and opne inch margin method can save some unpoleasant surprises down the line. Many writers who sell a novel are then asked to make cuts for length, and this is one of the reasons.

Thanks very much for the explanations...now I get it!

Uh...but YA novels they recommend 50-80,000? At least that was the information I received when asking around ... am I off? EEK!

I have gone through my MS 5 times now and each time I feel as though I can edit a phrase here or conversation there.

My biggest fear when I first started was -- is there enough of an idea here to make a good story? After my last edit I was at almost 119K (MS word TNR 12pt). I have also calculated it the way suggested above at the 250 per page with the other font and it becomes ridiculous at that point.

I have actually tried to remove portions of the story only to find that I end up making it up elsewhere.

I wish I could give you published advice, I can't. But my gut tells me to tell the story by painting the word picture. The painting isn't just red, blue and green. It is all those colors and more and each time you look at it you will see something new. I think that is what your story should be. You'll know when it's done.

On the second one I've only hit 104K, yet deep down I feel it isn't enough.

Cheesy I know -- but that's how I feel.

So, I did a quick and dirty word-count estimate on one of my favorite books from the past few years. One that was satisfyingly dense but not (I thought) overly-dense -- maybe 150,000 words, I thought?

280,000.

That's it. I give up. I'm concentrating on making my WIP into the best book it can be, not worrying about carving it down to a size that looks good on a query letter.

New writers, optimal is 80,000. Figure it out as 250 words per page, 12 pt, Time New Roman doublespaced. i.e. 330 pages is 82,500.

I've read that publishers look askance at unpublished novelists submitting anything over 100,000 words. I just finished my final draft, and, using the formatting suggested above, I come up with 143,000! It's not, of course, but 250 words x 572 pages...

Is this a serious problem?

oneidii said:

Uh...but YA novels they recommend 50-80,000? At least that was the information I received when asking around ... am I off? EEK!

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Children's and YA tend to be shorter (and those that look the same length often have larger type...)

mschannon said:

I've read that publishers look askance at unpublished novelists submitting anything over 100,000 words. I just finished my final draft, and, using the formatting suggested above, I come up with 143,000! It's not, of course, but 250 words x 572 pages...

Is this a serious problem?

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Is the novel really really good?

You're probably okay. it is a stumbling block, and someone WILL reject it and cite length considerations... but someone else may well look past that.

If you're really concerned, you can ask a beta-reader if any part of it feels padded or overlong.