"He who controls the past controls the future..."

Do you see any parallels of this with the advent of the printing press, all those years ago?

Me, I keep thinking there's something fundamentally different with reading online and reading from a book. And at the end of the day, I'm not carrying my computer down to the beach for reading.

Beyond that, there are many out of print books I am constantly searching for. I've got requests in all over the place. Some of them, I would love to quickly print up. Of course, the authors of these books are all dead. Who gets those royalties, I wonder?

robeiae said:

Do you see any parallels of this with the advent of the printing press, all those years ago?

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I very much do--and I've been watching this other revolution from the start. It's awfully familiar, speaking as a medievalist working in technology/publishing.

robeiae said:

Me, I keep thinking there's something fundamentally different with reading online and reading from a book.

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There really is, and a lot of the differences have to do with cognition.

robeiae said:

Beyond that, there are many out of print books I am constantly searching for. I've got requests in all over the place. Some of them, I would love to quickly print up. Of course, the authors of these books are all dead. Who gets those royalties, I wonder?

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Technically, the estate, but often if the IP isn't specifically left to an heir, then the publisher legally can collect and keep the monies.

I used to do copyright searches--it gets very complicated, and often, if you go to court, the judge will decide that the publisher has done "due diligence," and can keep the monies unless/until a legal claim is made.

I know jack about this stuff (I know, I really should, I know), so reading this and observing what's been going on in the industry of late leaves me with a funny feeling in my stomach.

Part of me thinks it's a good thing, but the other part isn't so sure. I hope folks with more insight than I possess will continue to chime in, so I can learn a little more and settle my brain a bit as a result.

But the major point is that Google has now conceded, with a very large payment, that “information is not free.”

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I'd love to comment, but it won't be cheap:

IMO = $.50
IMHO = $1.00
Comment sure to make you LOL = $3.00
Comments designated ROTFLAO = $5.00

Please visit my PayPal account for a complete price list!!!

What I keep hoping, and I am seeing some evidence of this, is that the really expensive sorts of small-run books--academic monographs, for instance--will move to digital distribution, with a fork off to POD for those who want a physical object.

This is very much what's happening with academic journals--first in the sciences, but now even in the slow-to-change humanities.

I'm watching the scholarly collections of open access research too--dissertations are now often being archived with the author's consent as .pdfs, for free download at the school that grants the degree, instead of being given to UMI, who charges 40.00 to 120.00 for a poorly printed hardcopy--and does not distribute royalties, even when contractually obligated.

Hmmmm, interesting and it can go many ways, both good and bad.

I'd like to see this new technology combined with a new technology that allows the individual to basically print up their own book (or an electronic version, if that's their preference.)

Authors can sell their books with a one-time printing right to an individual.

The use of the internet and cataloguing technology along with the advent of peer-reviewed sites and networks could help weed out the bad and promote the good.

It could possibly lower the price of books while also making them more accessible.

Possibly. There are so many factors and parties involved, much would have to be done (besides technology which is non-existent right now, but I feel is still plausible and doable.)

I think a cost-effective and timely print-on-demand technology would help save the industry. No more remaindering books or warehouse or shipping costs. No more guesstimating advances that don't yield a return for the publisher.

A customer wants a book, they buy it and print it out themselves or go to a bookstore that does it for them. Home versions are cheaper and bookstore versions are naturally similar to how they are now.

No more out-of-stock books.

Just some musings.

William Haskins said:

on the other hand, as a commercial enterprise, there is now a fairly established process that involves a lot of hands in the cookie jar. and no one is going to withdraw their hand without a fight.

it really is interesting.

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It really is--and I think it's really really important.

I do very much value and appreciate the editorial part of publishing.

But I do think if we can save costs on the distribution side--by POD for instance--than we need to reexamine the current advance/royalty model.

I know far too many "successful" writers and poets--really good writers, writing really good books (and artists, too, actually) who can't live on what they make via literature, and no, not because they're frivolous.

I'm just really not sure how to "fix" it. But I think if we can save on the warehousing and distribution costs by going to POD, that that money needs to go in part to the creator.

I want to make sure that I'm clear on this part:

We very much need editors and agents in terms of weeding out chaff.

We very much need typesetters/artists/book designers to create lasting, quality, enjoyable to read books.

I'm looking at the stage after the cover/typesetting/editing work are done as a place to make changes.

Medievalist said:

I want to make sure that I'm clear on this part:

We very much need editors and agents in terms of weeding out chaff.

We very much need typesetters/artists/book designers to create lasting, quality, enjoyable to read books.

I'm looking at the stage after the cover/typesetting/editing work are done as a place to make changes.

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I agree, for the most part and think that a timely and convenient POD technology (go to a bookstore, it's done in ten minutes, do it at home and it's done in twenty or whatever you deem fit by the device you buy) could help publishers remain profitable.

I also find the idea of removing the middleman altogether, intriguing. Allow readers to buy direct from authors and let the natural forces of the market (peer-review networks, internet, Amazon-style sites, bookstores, forums etc.) decide which book is a bestseller.

If a book isn't written well or needs proofreading, it will reflect in reviews and word of mouth.

A reader/buyer could also have greater control over the whole design of the book, with their whole collection totally personalized to their own taste: cover, font, style, media, and all.

The possibilities are endless.

POD machines in the bookstore, with a physical copy on the shelf for browsing...you want to buy a copy, it's printed off for you.
E-book downloads (samples and purchases) in the store while you drink down your latte...

That's my concept for the new bookstore of the future...
Too bad I haven't the money to set it in motion.

brokenfingers said:

A reader/buyer could also have greater control over the whole design of the book, with their whole collection totally personalized to their own taste: cover, font, style, media, and all.

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This is part of the "future" that I find fascinating, as a medievalist.

Because at the height of Western European ms. production, in the late Middle Ages, that's exactly how books were done, custom, made to order, with the hand and illumination style a customer preferred, and then bound to "match."

Then when printing got to be affordable enough to make cheap mass produced books, printed in the low thousands, "bespoke" binding was popular.

You'd buy the sheets of Dickens' latest, then give them to your binder who made custom leather bound books, in your family colors, etc.

Of the making of books there is no end.

There is nothing new under the sun.

astonwest said:

POD machines in the bookstore, with a physical copy on the shelf for browsing...you want to buy a copy, it's printed off for you.
E-book downloads (samples and purchases) in the store while you drink down your latte...

That's my concept for the new bookstore of the future...
Too bad I haven't the money to set it in motion.

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This is a central part of current college text book manufacture now. You order a custom book that's printed locally by the publisher, or on site at the bookstore, using a leased printer with an ATM switch for the data.

And it has enormous cost-cutting/waste elimination possibilities, if we can get it to become ubiquitous technololgy, like ... well, like phone booths used to be.

And the "vending printers" are present in the high end malls in Tokyo already. You can get custom manga.

I wasn't ready to really believe ebook readers would be a mainstream thing until this year. Sony has sold something like 300,000 of their readers, and now they're in retail chains. I actually got to see one in real life, and it was quite amazing. The eInk, if you haven't seen it, run out to your local Target and play with their display model, is something you just have to see to believe.

Have you ever seen an electronic device being modeled that uses a piece of printed cardboard for the display? It looks fake, right? When I first picked up the Sony reader, I thought the same thing - because it LOOKS LIKE PRINT. Seriously, it looks like a fake display, printed on paper. It's a strange sensation, to read an un-backlit screen.

It was so slim and light, I could easily see myself slipping it into my purse for reading at work (not the display one, duh. Just imagining if I bought one). I set it on the largest font, since I couldn't hold it like a book (it's attached to the display) and I could read it easily. It reads .pdf, and Word. I was thinking how I could upload a WIP and read it over wherever I was. It was pretty damn amazing.

The only stopping point now is the price - still $300. Price it at $150 or less and you've got yourself a deal, at least for me. Yes, I would happily load that thing with 300 books and put it in my pocket, if it weren't for the price.

But the fact that they are in physical stores says to me that Sony is ready to step out into the big time with ebooks. I don't think paper is going anywhere, but I see how things are in motion that could affect the way we read on a grander scale in the next couple of years.

And if I could get a semester's worth of coursebooks onto it, or with an SD card, ALL of my college textbooks? Fuggetaboutit. The backs of college students everywhere would be grateful.

Christine N. said:

And if I could get a semester's worth of coursebooks onto it, or with an SD card, ALL of my college textbooks? Fuggetaboutit. The backs of college students everywhere would be grateful.

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This is hugely the breakthrough paradigm for e-readers. I teach a couple of classes, as an adjunct, each semester at my local university, and students never fail to remind me how expensive their textbooks are. I just got a demand from the university admins that I order a new edition of a lab manual (they'll pay for it, of course, but I'm the one who has to jump through all the ordering hoops, and make bloody sure I get them all right, or else). The last two editions of this same manual differed in the style of some graphic illustrations, and nothing more that I could discern. A new edition is issued pretty much every year. This is racket, big time.

caw

Colleges could make some money by renting students a reader or laptop by the semester, and load up their textbooks onto it.

It IS a racket. New editions every year most of the time aren't warranted. How expensive (not to mention wasteful) is that? Doing them in ebook would save on shipping costs, make them more green, and they could STILL make a decent profit without all that overhead.

You couldn't sell them back, but if they were cheaper, you wouldn't care. The only thing an ebook reader wouldn't do as of now is show illustrations in color. For a text-only book, not such a big thing. For a graphic-heavy book, like an anatomy book, not so good. But then, laptops DO show color.

robeiae said:

Do you see any parallels of this with the advent of the printing press, all those years ago?

Me, I keep thinking there's something fundamentally different with reading online and reading from a book. And at the end of the day, I'm not carrying my computer down to the beach for reading.

Click to expand...

I highlighted a key point. Why do we like books? Why DON'T we like reading on a computer/laptop???

brokenfingers said:

Hmmmm, interesting and it can go many ways, both good and bad.

I'd like to see this new technology combined with a new technology that allows the individual to basically print up their own book (or an electronic version, if that's their preference.)

Authors can sell their books with a one-time printing right to an individual.

I think a cost-effective and timely print-on-demand technology would help save the industry.

A customer wants a book, they buy it and print it out themselves or go to a bookstore that does it for them.

Click to expand...

astonwest said:

POD machines in the bookstore, with a physical copy on the shelf for browsing...you want to buy a copy, it's printed off for you.

That's my concept for the new bookstore of the future...

Click to expand...

I think the above posts are a classic mistake of misapplying new technology.

Not a slight against you, we are all guilty of this mindset problem. It is extremely hard to properly incorporate new technology because our mindset and thought patterns are rooted in the old technology. I'm not saying, that what you propose couldn't work, but we are often so stuck in the 'old' that we end up using the 'new' in an old way and thus not maximizing the true benefit of the new. (Does that make sense?)

Take for instance, the car. Imagine the car being conceptualized, then imagine a design which has a horse, behind the car, pushing the car to help it go.

In a 'sense' that is what your idea is doing above. You are trying to micronize the printing press. Instead of looking at new technologies to use in its most efficient manner, you our subconsciously forcing the new technology into old paradigms.

Christine N. said:

I wasn't ready to really believe ebook readers would be a mainstream thing until this year. Sony has sold something like 300,000 of their readers, and now they're in retail chains. I actually got to see one in real life, and it was quite amazing.

Have you ever seen an electronic device being modeled that uses a piece of printed cardboard for the display? It looks fake, right? When I first picked up the Sony reader, I thought the same thing - because it LOOKS LIKE PRINT. Seriously, it looks like a fake display, printed on paper. It's a strange sensation, to read an un-backlit screen.

It was so slim and light, I could easily see myself slipping it into my purse for reading at work.

The only stopping point now is the price - still $300. Price it at $150 or less and you've got yourself a deal, at least for me. Yes, I would happily load that thing with 300 books and put it in my pocket, if it weren't for the price.

Click to expand...

http://ebookstore.sony.com/100sonyclassics/?in_merch=Global_Default_100Classics_Rt_1

video
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs...n_merch=Global_Reader Revolution Reader_Lft_2

You stole the point I was going to make but that is o.k.

Now lets combine all of the above posts.

When you are looking at new technology, the best way to maximize and EFFICIENTLY use new technology is by focusing on the root cause of the problem. In terms of the written word, the root cause of the problem is

Problem #1. "How do we get the written word to the readers?"

Solution: Books. Printing them on paper turned out to be the most cost effective way and has become the standard for the last few centuries

Problem #2. People have become used to the book format and don't like computer screens. Plus there are downsides to computers, people don't want to have to drag a computer with them just to read.

Solution??? Use the newest technology to create books.

Micronize the printing press???
Problem, still uses paper. Cost of paper (since it has been the medium of choice for the past few centuries) is as cheap as it is realistically EVER going to get. You must pay this cost for 'each' story/book
Problem, still uses ink (or equivalent). Same cost issues on a per story/book basis.

Use computers????
Computers/laptops too big and inconvenient to use. Power constaints, format on the eyes, and don't have the 'feel' of books?

Create a computer book???
Can we use technology to create the 'feel' of books?

Design: Same size as books, weight, and convenience. Power lasts for one full day, screen looks near the same as 'paper', etc.etc.

Benefits. One computer book can store near infinite amount of stories/books, cost per story (physical creation only) goes to ZERO!!! Just paying for a few electrons.

Problem. Initial cost prohibitive, $300???

Solution: Costs will come down with manufacturing, all technology follows this trend (i.g. first calculators costs a few hundred dollars). Even at $300, still cost effective after buying 50 books.

in conclusion, the future will be ebooks. And by future, I mean within the next ten years, 95% of us will have one. Just like cell phones. At first, only a few people had them, fast forward ten years, and now they are so mainstream that you are asked for your cell phone just like you are asked for your address.

Mel...

I actually said similar things to Astonwest here about a year ago. This is the same thing that happens with photo industry. You can come today into a store, upload your pictures, create an album on the spot and print it within an hour. If you want a better design, you doing from home, send it to print and then recieve it home.
Imagine coming into a store (or doing it through Internet from home), creating your own short story collections, combining novels and novellas into a single book, choosing the cover you want, the format you want. Then come to a store an hour later or recieve the book of your choice home. Throw a personal dedication on the cover if you are doing this as a present. Etc. Etc. There are really a lot of possibilities.
Digital printing will, in fact, become cheaper with time as it only scratches the surface of cost savings and barely makes 5% of the overall printing market.

dgiharris said:

Problem. Initial cost prohibitive, $300???

Solution: Costs will come down with manufacturing, all technology follows this trend (i.g. first calculators costs a few hundred dollars). Even at $300, still cost effective after buying 50 books.

Mel...

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There are several problems with your assertion here. Let's say the book in print costs 10$. Let's say the e-book costs half as much. You save 5$ per book. That means you need to buy 60 books to cover the price of the reader. For the vast majority of people that's several years of reading. Additionally, you have to have more than one e-reader in the house since you'd like several members of the family to read in parallel. Further problems are with lending books to friends and the likes (that certainly depends on the business model).

As an aside, I am not that sure the e-readers would come down so signifficantly in price as you expect them to. Why, because most of the technology isn't new. All the manufacturing processes are already mature etc.

In conclusion, I don't think that the two solutions are mutually exclusive. They will both exist for some time. At some point in the future, the fully electronic solutions are bound to prevail, though not necessary in the current form of e-readers (think flxible touch screens)

I think there is still something fundamentally different about words on actual paper vs. words on an LCD screen. It's more than just about how it "feels." As Lisa noted, there are cognitive differences, as well.

dmytryp said:

As an aside, I am not that sure the e-readers would come down so signifficantly in price as you expect them to. Why, because most of the technology isn't new. All the manufacturing processes are already mature etc.

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Actually, you are wrong on this.

The normal manufacturing cycle for this product line HAS JUST STARTED. The manufacturing technology also has room for improvement and efficiencies. The manufacturing technology for flat panel displays is the SAME technology that follows Moore's law (google moore's law). When Moore's law ceases to be in effect, then you are right, but that's not going to happen for another 10 - 20 years.

can you name one electronic technology that came out and did not decrease in price over time? ebooks 'just' came out a couple of years ago and are just starting to become mainstream. Their cost will be under a $100 dollars within the next 2 years easy. I am in this industry, my company makes the equipment that makes these ebooks, and I don't have the time to go point by point but trust me, ebooks will be under $100 in two years.

Again, I would ask you to just do a quick google on prices of ALL electronics and new technologies and look at how the prices cut in half year after year of their introduction WHILE capability still increases. Take memory (memory and semiconductor chips use the same manufacturing processes as flat panel display and ebooks)

Several years ago, buying a gigabyte of memory cost you a few hundred dollars

Now, you can get that same gigabyte for under $20.

anyways, trust me, ebooks will be under a $100 in two years.

And it is not just the cost, but the convenience and 'value'. Instead of lugging books around you have them all in your pocket. Or, you are at the coffee shop, someone says, "Hey, i'm reading this incredible book." You whip out your ebook, download right then and there on the spot, and start reading.

Then think of a classroom version of ebook where you can download college text books and have 'interactive' books.

Well, I gotta go.

Mel...

Mel, if some clever marketing guy comes up with the proper razor / razorblades approach to ebooks, they may be giving the readers away in two years.

The college market is a good example, just not big enough. Newspapers? Weekly magazines? Time or NewsWeek go digital? Subscribe for a year, get a free reader.

dgiharris said:

Actually, you are wrong on this.

The normal manufacturing cycle for this product line HAS JUST STARTED. The manufacturing technology also has room for improvement and efficiencies. The manufacturing technology for flat panel displays is the SAME technology that follows Moore's law (google moore's law). When Moore's law ceases to be in effect, then you are right, but that's not going to happen for another 10 - 20 years.

can you name one electronic technology that came out and did not decrease in price over time? ebooks 'just' came out a couple of years ago and are just starting to become mainstream. Their cost will be under a $100 dollars within the next 2 years easy. I am in this industry, my company makes the equipment that makes these ebooks, and I don't have the time to go point by point but trust me, ebooks will be under $100 in two years.

Again, I would ask you to just do a quick google on prices of ALL electronics and new technologies and look at how the prices cut in half year after year of their introduction WHILE capability still increases. Take memory (memory and semiconductor chips use the same manufacturing processes as flat panel display and ebooks)

Several years ago, buying a gigabyte of memory cost you a few hundred dollars

Now, you can get that same gigabyte for under $20.

anyways, trust me, ebooks will be under a $100 in two years.

And it is not just the cost, but the convenience and 'value'. Instead of lugging books around you have them all in your pocket. Or, you are at the coffee shop, someone says, "Hey, i'm reading this incredible book." You whip out your ebook, download right then and there on the spot, and start reading.

Then think of a classroom version of ebook where you can download college text books and have 'interactive' books.

Well, I gotta go.

Mel...

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Well, Mel, first I didn't say the cost wouldn't come down. I just said it wouldn't be as fast as you expect. Why? Because you are missing a key component in the bolded section. Every electronic device that was based on some kind of new technology or improvement came down in price. The e-readers don't do that (barring the case where completely new and cheaper technology for the processor and the screen is introduced). They use already existing technology and they have an inherent problem. That problem is they don't need cutting edge performance*. This is what ultimately drives the price down with the introduction of new, better performing generations of products. But e-readers aren't like that. You brought flat panels and Moor's law. But it isn't applicable. Moor's law concerns minituarization which in turn means better resolution of the screen. But unless you want to use your e-reader as a lap-top, you don't need high resolutions. The low end of the LCD displays is more than enough for text and pictures. Same goes for the processor. The e-reader's processor would be very basic. Both the screen and the processor already exist and are cheap. Same goes for the for memory. In fact, the version for the perfect e-reader in technological terms already exists -- iPod touch, iPhone and the likes. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple comes out with an e-reader which would be an iPod touch with a larger screen.

Furthemore, I think you are incorrect vis-a-vis economic drive. Let's say you can sell a 100mil (and I think for years that would be generous) units for 300$. That's a 30bil $ market, but you wouldn't change you reader for several years (let's say 5 years). That means 6bil$ annually. This isn't bad, but just for comparison -- LCD tvs are something like 100bil$ annually. And if you cut the price down, the size of the market shrinks.
I do, however agree with Don that newspapers, book publishers and the likes would give away the readers in hopes that it would drive people to buy their products.

* This is exactly the case with Windows Vista vs. XP. Vista didn't take because it didn't give enough of an edge over XP. Microsoft wants to pull technical support for XP in order to push Vista. Same with the readers because the functions you need are very basic. Same with cameras -- over a certain censor resolution it becomes a niche market, because it doesn't give you a signifficant advantage in the day to day use

robeiae said:

I think there is still something fundamentally different about words on actual paper vs. words on an LCD screen. It's more than just about how it "feels." As Lisa noted, there are cognitive differences, as well.

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Aye. There are still some of us dinosaurs buying vinyls, after all

I already buy music in three different formats. How long until I need to do the same with books?

Imagine coming into a store (or doing it through Internet from home), creating your own short story collections, combining novels and novellas into a single book,

Click to expand...

Already can do that. www.anthologybuilder.com. You can even choose your own cover and everything.

And Robeiae, this isn't an LCD screen. I can't even describe it except that I really thought it was a fake screen, printed for display purposes. There's NO backlight. You can't read this in the dark, just like you can't read a book in the dark. It looks LIKE PAPER. If you weren't holding an electronic device, I don't think you'd be able to tell the difference. I know it sounds like hyperbole, but you just have to see it for yourself.

The screen does blink when it changes pages, but it's no longer than it would take you to flip a page. It was weird, but I got used to it very quickly. Dang, I want one. I hope they come down in price quicker than two years, or Sony has a sale or something.

Incidentally, Samhain sells ALL their titles through Sony, and they're all about $5 each.