photo's or photos?

xhouseboy · Mar 10, 2009

I was observing an ongoing debate over this issue on another forum.

Someone claimed that the plural of photo should be photo's, the apostrophe in this case indicating the missing letters in photograph. Someone else also claimed that technically we should write 'phone, the preceding apostrophe again indicating that 'tele' has been omitted.

I would dispute this. After all, if this is the case, surely photo should then be photo' (with the apostrophe to indicate the missing letters). But always willing to be corrected.

Any thoughts?

C.bronco · Mar 10, 2009

photos

photo's means that something belongs to the photo.

e.g. "Everyone ignored my baboon. It was the photo's limpet that grabbed all of the attention."

xhouseboy · Mar 10, 2009

C.bronco said:
photos

photo's means that something belongs to the photo.

e.g. "Everyone ignored my baboon. It was the photo's limpet that grabbed all of the attention."

Thanks C. Bronco.

But the possession apostrophe was also covered. They had moved beyond this, and were still insisting that in these instances the apostrophe replaced the missing letters.

C.bronco · Mar 10, 2009

"phones" doesn't have an apostrophe before it. I'm trying to think of other examples, but I'm getting sleepy

ChaosTitan · Mar 10, 2009

Photo and phone are simply abbreviated forms of photograph and telephone.

It's not the same as purposely dropping letters from a word because of slang or accent, such as -- 'cept, 'lo, y'all (except, hello, you all).

Matera the Mad · Mar 10, 2009

Photos, phones, autos, pics -- any commonly used shortened word is just another frinkin word. Those idiots probably tack apostrophleas onto any word that seems remotely "special". I pass gas in their direction.

xhouseboy · Mar 10, 2009

Yes and yes and yes to what you're saying.

I was beginning to think there was something wrong with me as I was going through the responses on that site.

Everyone was agreeing with each other, and I'm thinking 'this is nonsense,' and then the doubt would kick in 'or is it me?'

qwerty · Mar 11, 2009

I think it's a case of people clinging on to a past era; before words like phone and photo became established as words in their own right. I've got a 1985 dictionary that gives both those words without an apostrophe. It also gives telly as an accepted abreviation of television. Fridge is another one.

dpaterso · Mar 11, 2009

I half-expected this to end with a punchline, "I was kidding about it being another message board, IT WAS THIS BOARD, DAMN YOU, YOU ARGUMENTATIVE PHILLISTINES!"

-Derek

CaroGirl · Mar 11, 2009

There are other message boards?

Excuse me while I answer the 'phone. Then I have to go the 'fridge and get Jell-O for my husband who has 'flu and has fainted onto a photo' of J'Lo.

Those words that used to be abbreviated forms have become words in and of themselves. Apostrophes look silly. Don't they?

IceCreamEmpress · Mar 11, 2009

Even when people wrote 'phone and 'bus (because it's a shortened form of omnibus) they didn't write photo'. Or auto', for that matter.

It seems like the convention was to use the apostrophe for omitted letters at the beginning of a word, but if the shortened form started at the beginning, there was no need for the apostrophe to indicate the omitted letters that followed.

veinglory · Mar 11, 2009

I agree with Matera, these abbreviations are now accepted as words in their own right.

MaryMumsy · Mar 11, 2009

dpaterso said:
I half-expected this to end with a punchline, "I was kidding about it being another message board, IT WAS THIS BOARD, DAMN YOU, YOU ARGUMENTATIVE PHILLISTINES!"

-Derek

Doesn't Philistine have only one L?

MM

Kitty Pryde · Mar 11, 2009

ummm...

(courtesy of xkcd.com)

Matera the Mad · Mar 11, 2009

Every time I see the title of this thread... :Soapbox:

KikiteNeko · Mar 11, 2009

I'm not sure how that's even a debate on a writing forum. Really? 's is possessive as in "The photo's edges were crumbling." Or it could stand for "photo is" as in, "That photo's old." But two photographs, or photos, is "photos."

Two hippos would not be spelled "hippo's" because the full word is "hippopotamus"

No word will ever be abbreviated with an apostrophe simply because it's long. Think of your friend the apostrophe as the bridge between two words, or a way to show that something is possessive.

Priene · Mar 12, 2009

I seem to recall a similar thread a while ago.

Going back to a north of England primary school 35 years ago, I was taught that foreign words and contractions with unusual endings took an apostrophe when plural, presumably as an aid to pronunciation. So it would be pizza's (pizzas were unusual in Rochdale at that time) and photo's. This use of apostrophes was dying out even then, I think, and is surely archaic now. However, you will still find older people quoting this rule, but not as a mistaken use of the possessive and not as an abbreviation marker.

xhouseboy · Mar 12, 2009

Priene said:
Going back to a north of England primary school 35 years ago, I was taught that foreign words and contractions with unusual endings took an apostrophe when plural, presumably as an aid to pronunciation. So it would be pizza's (pizzas were unusual in Rochdale at that time) and photo's. This use of apostrophes was dying out even then, I think, and is surely archaic now. However, you will still find older people quoting this rule, but not as a mistaken use of the possessive and not as an abbreviation marker.

This is exactly what they were doing. And I'm positive several of the posters were of an older generation, and it was a UK site. I assumed that the odd detratctor was of a younger generation, judging by the nature of some of their other posts, subject matter, etc.

xhouseboy · Mar 12, 2009

tomothecat said:
I'm not sure how that's even a debate on a writing forum. Really? 's is possessive as in "The photo's edges were crumbling." Or it could stand for "photo is" as in, "That photo's old." But two photographs, or photos, is "photos."

Two hippos would not be spelled "hippo's" because the full word is "hippopotamus"

No word will ever be abbreviated with an apostrophe simply because it's long. Think of your friend the apostrophe as the bridge between two words, or a way to show that something is possessive.

I'll answer that for you.

I raised the subject, others were kind enough to respond. We then debated it.

And I think you'll find I already covered what you're saying in my first couple of posts. So apart from your first dismissive sentence, you're really adding nothing new to the debate.

Priene (along with others) has some intertesting points to make, though.

.

IceCreamEmpress · Mar 12, 2009

Priene said:
Going back to a north of England primary school 35 years ago, I was taught that foreign words and contractions with unusual endings took an apostrophe when plural

That was never correct in any professional style or usage guide of the time, though.

There were a lot of primary school teachers in the UK, and elementary school teachers in the US, who taught a lot of false "rules" like this, which resulted in generations of people saying "just between you and I" because their teachers told them it was "more correct."

Sirius · Mar 12, 2009

Priene said:
Going back to a north of England primary school 35 years ago, I was taught that foreign words and contractions with unusual endings took an apostrophe when plural, presumably as an aid to pronunciation. So it would be pizza's (pizzas were unusual in Rochdale at that time) and photo's. This use of apostrophes was dying out even then, I think, and is surely archaic now. However, you will still find older people quoting this rule, but not as a mistaken use of the possessive and not as an abbreviation marker.

Much now becomes clear about my parents' decision 44 years ago to pick up their children and flee from Rochdale to a location 50 miles northwards, where they had even fewer pizzas but where, at least, they had Standards. And grammar schools. Which taught grammar. Gawdelpus. Which primary schools in Rochdale were pushing out that pernicious tosh? Greenbank? St James's?

Chase · Mar 12, 2009

IceCreamEmpress said:
There were a lot of primary school teachers in the UK, and elementary school teachers in the US, who taught a lot of false "rules" like this, which resulted in generations of people saying "just between you and I" because their teachers told them it was "more correct."

Hear, hear. You've zeroed in on the pernicious root . . . most often heralded in a superior tone, "I was always taught . . ." followed by some fourth grade wisdom to never begin a sentence with "and" or end a sentence with a preposition . . . that "who" is singular and "whom" plural . . . to put a comma where you take a breath . . . that "alot" and "alright" are acceptable spellings of two-word phrases . . . "a person should do their own thing" is fine to avoid sexist pronouns or the tiresome "his or her."

Argh!

Oh, yes, exclamation points are also no-nos.

KikiteNeko · Mar 12, 2009

xhouseboy said:
I'll answer that for you.

I raised the subject, others were kind enough to respond. We then debated it.

And I think you'll find I already covered what you're saying in my first couple of posts. So apart from your first dismissive sentence, you're really adding nothing new to the debate.

.

I was actually referring to the "other forum" you mentioned where you said there was a "debate" going on. Not this one. But I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to respond to your thread until you decided whether what I was adding to the discussion mattered. In the future I will consult you first.

xhouseboy · Mar 12, 2009

tomothecat said:
I was actually referring to the "other forum" you mentioned where you said there was a "debate" going on. Not this one. But I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to respond to your thread until you decided whether what I was adding to the discussion mattered. In the future I will consult you first.

It seems we both then assumed. It wasn't a writing forum. I probably should have mentioned that, but having failed to do so I can see why you might have assumed it to be so.

My apologies.

Priene · Mar 13, 2009

Sirius said:
Much now becomes clear about my parents' decision 44 years ago to pick up their children and flee from Rochdale to a location 50 miles northwards, where they had even fewer pizzas but where, at least, they had Standards. And grammar schools. Which taught grammar. Gawdelpus. Which primary schools in Rochdale were pushing out that pernicious tosh? Greenbank? St James's?

St Patrick's RC. It was better than my previous school, Sacred Hearts in Oldham, where they were teaching everybody an alternative alphabet. (No, I'm not joking).

photo's or photos?

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