Dailey Swan Publishing (Casey Swanson)

[agentpaper]

Originally Posted by Theobalddavid

Saanen- just because you don't like music with your web sites is no reason to cast dispersions uspon this publisher. If you think it's amateurish, fine - you don't need to look at it. Probably good you gave them a miss. I like what Casey has done and the fact that he is encouraging first time authors. Maybe you haven't run into this problem, but it's hard to get your material in front of a publisher if you are an unheard of author. Remember, John Grisham - he was unheard of at one time and started with a small publisher. I guess my point is don't knock someone who is trying to get his business growing and is willing to take on first time authors, unless you have personally had a bad experience with them. I personally have found them very easy to deal with and willing to work with me on refining my manuscript and hopefully publishing it. That is still to be determined, but he is one of the few that responded to me and gave me ideas on what he'd like to see changed to make the book more readable. I applaud what he is doing and I would encourage any author - especially a new author to check out Dailey Swan publishers.

Bolding mine.

Why does this ALWAYS come up when someone is trying to defend a small publisher? This just isn't true. If you've written a superb story, then it doesn't matter if you're unheard of. And if you're not sending out a superb story, why not? You should always send out your best stuff and keep writing to improve, then send THAT out and so on and so forth.

I'm not bashing this publisher or this poster or even small presses, I'm just amazed at how many people think this to be true, and then spread it around like this.

As far as John Grisham, he's the exception that proves the rule. The only reason we even know about it, is because it's news worthy (ie it happens very rarely. If it happened all the time, would we care?).

And music played on a business website is very unprofessional, IMHO. You don't see any of the big commercial publishers doing this and there's probably a reason for it.

~AP--who's done venting.

[priceless1]

Originally Posted by Theobalddavid

Maybe you haven't run into this problem, but it's hard to get your material in front of a publisher if you are an unheard of author.

This is one of those wives tales that circulate around all the time. It's old and moldy and really needs to be put to bed once and for all. Publishers read material from unpublished authors all the time. Debut authors are published all the time. Just because someone is new is no reason to ever settle for less. If you write like the wind, an editor will sit up and take notice.

[JulieB]

Originally Posted by agentpaper

And music played on a business website is very unprofessional, IMHO. You don't see any of the big commercial publishers doing this and there's probably a reason for it.

The number one reason: If you haven't licensed it, you shouldn't be using it. Of course, they may have licensed it, which would have been the right thing to do. But...

The number two reason: Unless you're in the business of selling music (you're a band, a record label) you're probably driving customers away. Nothing makes me click away (or hit the mute button) faster than music or video that starts when a page is loaded. If you've annoyed your customer, you're less likely to make a sale. Period. I give them points for being reader-facing, but they really should ditch the music.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I'm smelling a drive-by posting.

We'll see if the poster comes on back to make more sense out of his/her original statement.

[Stacia Kane]

Originally Posted by agentpaper

Bolding mine.

Why does this ALWAYS come up when someone is trying to defend a small publisher? This just isn't true. If you've written a superb story, then it doesn't matter if you're unheard of. And if you're not sending out a superb story, why not? You should always send out your best stuff and keep writing to improve, then send THAT out and so on and so forth.

I'm not bashing this publisher or this poster or even small presses, I'm just amazed at how many people think this to be true, and then spread it around like this.

As far as John Grisham, he's the exception that proves the rule. The only reason we even know about it, is because it's news worthy (ie it happens very rarely. If it happened all the time, would we care?).

And music played on a business website is very unprofessional, IMHO. You don't see any of the big commercial publishers doing this and there's probably a reason for it.

~AP--who's done venting.

Ditto, ditto, ditto, this entire post. New authors get published every day, John Grisham's story is highly unique (ad if memory serves, the house that bought his first book wasn't that small, and had been in business for a long time; it was a military publisher, wasn't it?), and music on a website is terrible and unprofessional.

Survey after survey and article after article has shown that when music starts as soon as a website loads, people click away immediately and don't return. It's unprofessional and amateurish, and just generally a bad idea. I don't understand why a professional publisher would want music on their website.

[Momento Mori]

Theobalddavid:
Maybe you haven't run into this problem, but it's hard to get your material in front of a publisher if you are an unheard of author.

Bollocks. Plenty of first-time, unknown authors are published by big commercial publishers. Best way to do it is to get an agent first.

Theobalddavid:
John Grisham - he was unheard of at one time and started with a small publisher.

Wynwood Press (who published John Grisham's A Time To Kill) paid him an advance for that book and did an initial print run of 5,000.

Does Dailey Swan pay advances and/or do print runs?

Theobalddavid:
I guess my point is don't knock someone who is trying to get his business growing and is willing to take on first time authors, unless you have personally had a bad experience with them.

No-one's knocking them. People are asking questions and raising potential concerns.

As for waiting until someone has a bad experience, the whole point of this site is to enable authors to make an informed decision before signing with a publisher - that way they can avoid that bad experience.

Theobalddavid:
I personally have found them very easy to deal with and willing to work with me on refining my manuscript and hopefully publishing it. That is still to be determined, but he is one of the few that responded to me and gave me ideas on what he'd like to see changed to make the book more readable.

While it's great that Casey is willing to do that, most publishers don't because they lack the time as they're focusing on running a business.

A good critique group or beta reader could equally help to make your manuscript more readable.

MM

[Momento Mori]

Stacia Kane:
John Grisham's story is highly unique (ad if memory serves, the house that bought his first book wasn't that small, and had been in business for a long time; it was a military publisher, wasn't it?)

According to John Grisham himself, they were a new house in 1989 - http://www.slushpile.net/index.php/2...risham-author/

John Grisham Interview:
Wynwood Press was a new, small unknown publishing company in New York in 1989. Everybody else had passed on A Time to Kill, Wynwood Press took the gamble. Printed 5,000 hardback copies, and we couldn’t give them away. Wynwood later went bankrupt, or out of business.

Apparently, when the company went out of business he bought up the remainder of the books and sold them himself (hence the infamous "John Grisham kept his books in the trunk of his car" story that keeps doing the rounds).

What's interesting is that on his website, he says that he wrote The Firm next, sold the screenplay rights and then got the book deal with Doubleday, who bought the hardback republishing rights for A Time To Kill.

Erm ... not that I'm obsessed with John Grisham or anything. I just decided to do a bit of research because I got fed up with reading about how he'd self-published.

MM

[Stacia Kane]

Thanks MM! I couldn't remember the details and didn't have time to google.

[profen4]

Originally Posted by Momento Mori

Erm ... not that I'm obsessed with John Grisham or anything. I just decided to do a bit of research because I got fed up with reading about how he'd self-published.

MM

Yeah right, stalker!!! You're watching him right now, aren't you?

[IceCreamEmpress]

Stacia, I think you're thinking of Tom Clancy, who published The Hunt for Red October first with a specialty naval press.

[Stacia Kane]

Originally Posted by IceCreamEmpress

Stacia, I think you're thinking of Tom Clancy, who published The Hunt for Red October first with a specialty naval press.

YES! Doh. Thanks, that was indeed who I was thinking of.

[Momento Mori]

swhibs123:
You're watching him right now, aren't you?

No.

:puts down binoculars and edges away looking shifty:

:goes to polish shrine:

MM

[Theobalddavid]

Glad to see my post generated so much interest!

Just like anything in life, what Casey has done for his WEB site will be liked by many, make no difference to others and be abhorrent to some. My point was simply, don't knock it just because you don't like it. What's that old axiom; “Don't judge a book by its cover”? As to unheard of authors if you have written the most recent best seller - sure agents and publishers are going to want to take it on. However, if the manuscript is just good and the author is unknown it's hard to get it published.

I’m happy for all of you who are so good that you got your first manuscript published with so little effort – it’s quite obvious you are brilliant writers.

No drive by here!

[Katrina S. Forest]

Pick up any book on basic website design and you will find that music in the background is discouraged for the reasons already mentioned. It annoys visitors. So, yes, if I'm visiting a professional website, I expect it to look nice and sound silent. (Now I will say I think the design of the site aside from the music is rather nice, so it's got that in it's favor.)

I’m happy for all of you who are so good that you got your first manuscript published with so little effort

No one said that writing a publishable manuscript is easy. It's insanely hard. The only thing anyone said was that once you *have* written an awesome book, you can get it published regardless of how known you are. If it's "just good," but not good enough that strangers will pay money to read it, why should anyone (large or small press) pay you for it?

Publishers of any size don't buy books to be nice to the authors - they buy them because they think they'll make money. Even presses that specialize in niche markets only want the best of what comes into their slush pile. Anything less should raise an immediate red flag, because it means the press is either going to close shop very quickly or they're making money some other way.

I totally understand the frustration of feeling like your work is good but not good enough, and it's so easy to blame it on unknown status. But the problem is if you use this reason too often, you stop looking for flaws in your work and you stop improving.

[Stacia Kane]

Originally Posted by Theobalddavid

Glad to see my post generated so much interest!

As to unheard of authors if you have written the most recent best seller - sure agents and publishers are going to want to take it on. However, if the manuscript is just good and the author is unknown it's hard to get it published.

Well, sure, if the book is "just good." Lots of books are "just good." Publishers want to publish excellent books, because that's what the public expects and what they're willing to spend their money on. Again, new writers get published every single day, with major houses. They don't care if you're known or not; if your book excites them and they love it, they will buy it.

I’m happy for all of you who are so good that you got your first manuscript published with so little effort – it’s quite obvious you are brilliant writers.

See, I would think you were being nice here, except for the line about "with so little effort." Who says it wasn't an effort? Who says the first ms that got published was our first ms ever? My first ms certainly didn't get published; it was awful. My first NY sale was actually the ninth novel I'd ever written; it took me several years to get to that point. Most books you see on shelves are the result of years of work for an author until they had the right idea, the right character, and the skills and abilities to do them justice.

I work incredibly hard on all of my books. I put everything I can and everything I have into them, until I'm exhausted, and then I do it again. My hands hurt, my fingers hurt, my back hurts, my head hurts from being nearsighted and squinting to read the screen because of the eyestrain that makes my eyes hurt. I lose sleep, I miss out on chances to do things with my family. Don't tell me it was "so little effort," or that I didn't have to put in a lot of hard work to get even the moderate semi-success I've achieved.

I'm not a bestseller by a long shot. I was completely unknown when my agent sold my series to Del Rey. So were most of the writers on this board. It happens every day. I'm sorry, but what you're saying is patently and provably false, and I don't understand why you keep repeating it as if it's true.

[RoseColoredSkies]

Originally Posted by IceCreamEmpress

Stacia, I think you're thinking of Tom Clancy, who published The Hunt for Red October first with a specialty naval press.

*Shudder* That was like the first case we read in Contracts class last year. Guess it helped make him famous. And go on and publish with bigger houses.

Okay...going now.

[Theobalddavid]

Originally Posted by Stacia Kane

See, I would think you were being nice here, except for the line about "with so little effort."

.

Ah - see how the mind reads what it wants - I was being nice as well as envious!

[Saanen]

Originally Posted by Theobalddavid

Ah - see how the mind reads what it wants - I was being nice as well as envious!

You were being snarky. You're being snarky now by saying that Stacia Kane was reading something into your words you hadn't intended.

Of course, I'm being snarky too and I shouldn't be. Sorry about that. I suggest you look around the AW forums and get involved. We're always happy for a fresh voice and there's a ton to learn and discuss. I hope you don't limit your activity to this particular post.

As for Dailey Swan, I stand by my original statement that the website's music is amateurish. I didn't say anything about the books, just the website--but as others have said, the music is undoubtedly driving potential book-buyers away before they even glance at the first title.

[Momento Mori]

Theobalddavid:
what Casey has done for his WEB site will be liked by many, make no difference to others and be abhorrent to some.

The one issue with Casey's website is whether the book purchasing public is ever going to see it because if he's relying on it to make sales, then it needs to be well publicised. Whether it's got photos, nice script or plays Stevie Wonder when you click on it doesn't matter if no one is ever going to go there.

Theobalddavid:
My point was simply, don't knock it just because you don't like it.

My point is that if there are potential issues with a publisher that a writer should be aware of/consider before signing with them, then those potential issues should be pointed out.

Pointing out a potential issue is not knocking the publisher. I don't have any reason to think that Dailey Swan is anything other than a well-intentioned publisher trying to do the best for its authors. However, as the old axiom has it - good intentions pave the way to hell and there are plenty of other threads on this Forum for similarly minded publishers which have ended up being a terrible idea for writers.

Theobalddavid:
As to unheard of authors if you have written the most recent best seller - sure agents and publishers are going to want to take it on.

This is still bollocks.

How does an agent or publisher know that a book is going to be a bestseller? The answer is that they don't. It's like William Goldman said "Nobody knows anything". All an agent or publisher can do is make a decision, based on their experience as to whether they can sell the book.

In the case of an agent, the risk they take is that they can't then sell that manuscript.

In the case of a publisher, the risk that they take is that they don't sell the book in sufficient copies to make the anticipated profit.

While everyone goes into the deal hoping that the book will do really well, no one can guarantee it. That's what makes it a commercial enterprise.

Theobalddavid:
However, if the manuscript is just good and the author is unknown it's hard to get it published.

This is also still bollocks.

Plenty of unknown authors with good manuscripts get agents and sell their books to publishers.

If your skewered view of the world was true, then no one would have published Dan Brown, J K Rowling, Stephen King, Nora Roberts, or a host of other big name authors because their first books were not instant bestsellers.

Theobalddavid:
I’m happy for all of you who are so good that you got your first manuscript published with so little effort

I'm happy for you that you live in a little bubble that no amount of logic or common sense can apparently penetrate.

Writing is hard. Getting an agent is hard. Getting a publisher is hard.

No one walks into it.

No one is guaranteed instant bestseller success.

No one with an ounce of common sense goes into writing expecting instant commercial success.

Theobalddavid:
No drive by here!

On the contrary, you have 3 posts - all in this thread depending a publisher against the big internet meanies. That's pretty much the definition of a drive-by.

Theobalddavid:
see how the mind reads what it wants - I was being nice as well as envious!

Uh-huh.

MM

[Nya RAyne]

Originally Posted by c2ckim

Be careful Doctri- they claim everything that is sent to them becomes their property cuz the publisher is just too busy to send it back if they don't want it!

For that reason alone, I wouldn't query them.

[Daddyo]

Their property means that they'll shred it, burn it or put it in the bird's cage.

[priceless1]

Originally Posted by Theobalddavid

My point was simply, don't knock it just because you don't like it. What's that old axiom; “Don't judge a book by its cover”?

That may be a great thing to say in a Sunday school class, but in the publishing industry, appearances are our life's blood - along with being able to deliver the goods. I've heard many of my agent friends talk about the cruddy websites of publishers while holding their noses. However, if that publisher is selling tons of books, they could have their site on a sheet of toilet paper, and agents would flock.

But a cruddy website for an unproven publisher is a death knell because it screams noob.

As to unheard of authors if you have written the most recent best seller - sure agents and publishers are going to want to take it on. However, if the manuscript is just good and the author is unknown it's hard to get it published.

This statement is naive. Editors and agents look for good books that they believe is marketable. Period. It's wrong to believe new writers don't get good publishing deals. We have several bestsellers, and they were all debut writers.

New writers do not get shut out, yet this excuse is consistently rolled out in order to justify going with a publisher who can't get off first base.

[Momento Mori]

priceless1:
But a cruddy website for an unproven publisher is a death knell because it screams noob.

I agree with this and I'd say that it's not only the music that identifies the publisher as a n00b, it's also statements like this:

Dailey Swan Website:
send us your outline, and sample pages from through-out the book. We need a good random selection, maybe half a dozen pages. Please, it's hard to tell what might catch our attention so don’t worry about which ones.

The reason why agents/publishers ask for the opening pages/chapters first is because it gives them an indication as to whether the writer (a) can write and (b) write something that grabs and sustains interest.

Asking for a random 12 pages of someone's book is not an effective way of managing the slush pile because in all probability, a writer will send the best 12 pages, which might be incredible but mean nothing if the intervening pages are standard slush.

Dailey Swan Website:
our books including the aforementioned genre fiction (science-fiction/fantasy, mystery/suspense, and horror), general fiction, non-fiction, self-help/motivational, and poetry, with the launch in the fall of 2009 of our second imprint Earl Henry Books, (a source for new poets with something to say).

Most start-up publishers find it easier to concentrate on one or two specific genres because they can build up their reputation in that field before expanding into other genres.

A publisher who accepts poetry is almost always a red flag because there is no real market out there for poetry collections, making it financially unviable for many.

MM

[Queen of Swords]

Originally Posted by Momento Mori

Asking for a random 12 pages of someone's book is not an effective way of managing the slush pile because in all probability, a writer will send the best 12 pages, which might be incredible but mean nothing if the intervening pages are standard slush.

Who would a publisher ask for random pages? If I pick up a book in a store or library, I don't read pages 3, 29 and 285 - that would be pretty disjointed and probably confusing. I read the first few pages to have an idea of how the story begins and what the pacing is like.

[agentpaper]

Originally Posted by Momento Mori

No one with an ounce of common sense goes into writing expecting instant commercial success.

Well, maybe you go into it expecting hoping for instant commercial success, but you learn pretty quickly that probably just isn't going to happen.