No Outlines, Please

i tried figuring things out beforehand. lol, my characters mutinied until I let them run the show.

For me, outlining depends on the complexity of the story. My planned 6-novel series I have been developing for over seven years has over 80 characters and a very complex story. I am outlining it now and it, by itself, could be a novel, it's so long. But, for a regular novel, with a basic story, I don't feel outlines are necessary. A writer should have a general idea of the ending, to know where they are headed while writing the story, though. But, it really depends on the writer I guess.

Outlines

ButtonTheCat said:

Hello!

I wondered how many people here don't outline.

I've been trying to outline my next novel, I just can't. It's not in me to figure out what comes next in the story. That's the character's job, not mine.

I just put them in the tight spots and let them go on from there. Are there others that simply can not write with an outline?

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I hate outlining anything. My writing works just fine without it, so I don't do it. Neither do my favorite writers, which has always led me to believe that one thing a new writer should try is immulating the way his favorite writer or two works.

I think very good novels can be written using outlines, and very good novels can be written without outlines, but I can usually see differences in the two.

If nothing else, looking at how your favorite writer or three works gives you a starting point, and will let you understand that it isn't necessary to outline a novel in order to write a good one, or that you can also write a good one by outlining.

When I started feeling a bit guilty about writing without outlines, I looked into the writing mathods of all my favorite writers, and I found only one used outlines, and not terribly detailed outlines, at that. This told me what I was doing was fine. It also told me I seemed to like the novels of writers who didn't outline more than the novels of those who did.

We all haveto do it our own way, and the right way is always whatever way works for you. But I would suggest looking into the writing methods of a dozen or so novelists you really like. Look for a pattern, and do thou likewise.
If it doesn't work, do thou the opposite.

Ditto on what James said.

The reason so many new writers think you must outline is that when you learn to write a story in school you are told to do an outline first--turn in your list of characters by Friday, turn in your story outline by Monday and so on.

I left a dif board, well was driven out, by a person there who thought they knew it all (she didn't have an agent, and never published one word)(but was popular) who posted a thread like this--she asked do you outline or not and why. It was about the 5th or 6th thread in a row about outlining. I started out with--eee gadds not another outlining thread and then went into what James said above. She came back and told me I was doing new writers harm by telling them not to outline (I didn't I just said I didn't do it) and she went on to say just think of how much better your writing could be if you outlined. She'd never read a thing I had written.

So it can be a strong debate at times, most outliners can not see how those of us who don't outline ever come up with a working story--and good ones at that.

Write in whatever way works for you, there is no rule that says you have to do one or the other or that one or the other is the right way.

The right way is your way.

Period.

Shawn

SRHowen said:

The right way is your way.

Period.

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I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

I meet in the middle

I really like "Basic" outlines. I can't stress basic enough. I like to write two or three steps ahed of my WIP and keep running tabs on what I'd like to accomplish, but I start with the climax in mind. It is by no means a full outline, most of my outlines read, "The market scene," or "Jim at the movies." It helps me understand the flow. I like the fact that some people dont even do that, it's a great gift. The flow is usualy better and you really get a real close sense of what your characters are like as real people, if that makes sense.
For people like me, I guess it just goes with the style of creation. Do what works, in the end, its all about your story, not whether you outline or not. So I guess were all the same, and that makes me happy. Just like in life, we dont all drive the same car, so wy would we constuct a novel the same way?

I think an outline can help tighten the plot structure in advance. That way, you can see an overview of the novel at a glance and eliminate redundant or irrelevant scenes early on (or you might find you need more!). Me, I start with a very basic outline and then I jump around depending on what excites me to write first. Or sometimes the outline is in my head, but I don't bother writing it all down. Seems like the longer the novel, the more likely an outline will bring clarity to the project. An outline is just a tool, though, and of course does not work for everyone or every project (can you imagine outlining stream of consciousness? ).

What's in your toolbox?

I've found that if I don't outline my stories have no plot. Outlining is hard, but I think I've learned a lot about the structure and rhythm of fiction from trying to do it.

Julie Worth said:

Do you outline a conversation? No, of course not. Same thing with a novel. Outlines are death.

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Julie Worth said:

I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

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You and I must have different interpretations of an outline because I don't agree you when you say "outlines are death" and that being more detailed by planning the story out will make the novel boring. I see an outline as a "scene-by-scene" breakdown, saying "This character does this here, which introduces this character who says so and so, setting up "this" later in the novel in so and so chapter." It's not as detailed as outlining a conversation.
A chapter outline for me is 10 pages at the most - and I rarely have more than 8. I take that and I convert it into a chapter, adding (and sometimes changing things) as I go along. It's just like having the story in your head, only this way, you don't forget anything. You know where you are going and you have the map there to guide you; with it, you won't miss a turn, you can weave through all the small streets and back roads and climb through the winding mountains and you won't ever get lost.

Outlines are definitely important for a novel series, especially one with a complex story - like mine - and my novel isn't boring. Different writers have different methods and none of them are wrong - as long as they work.

Maybe those people you know - who planned everything out - have boring books because they can't write well; they wrote a complex, boring story which made the novel boring. Can you say for sure that the reason why those books are boring is because of the fact that they were outlined first? A book is boring because of the story that is told and the way the chapters are written, not how the story was approached and planned out. - JMO

Saying "this is the way you do it" or "that is the only way to do it" is utter foolishness. Everyone's wired differently. What works for one, is hell for another. And vice versa. But as a point of fact, most writers I know don't actually do things the same way everytime. Some don't even do it the same way twice.

Julie Worth said:

Outlines are death.

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An outline is a brief description of what happens in a book. For some people, knowing what happens in a book kills it, but for other people, how it happens is more important.

Consider the formula romance novel: Girl meets boy, they fall madly in love against their better judgement, and they live happily ever after. Knowing all that ahead of time, tens of thousands of women read and write them anyway.

same way

scribbler1382 said:

Saying "this is the way you do it" or "that is the only way to do it" is utter foolishness. Everyone's wired differently. What works for one, is hell for another. And vice versa. But as a point of fact, most writers I know don't actually do things the same way everytime. Some don't even do it the same way twice.

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Shoot, I'm not even positive I do it the same way once. Odd as it sounds, I really mean it.

E.G. Gammon said:

Maybe those people you know - who planned everything out - have boring books because they can't write well; they wrote a complex, boring story which made the novel boring. Can you say for sure that the reason why those books are boring is because of the fact that they were outlined first? A book is boring because of the story that is told and the way the chapters are written, not how the story was approached and planned out. - JMO

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I do think it's the outlining that kills some books for some writers, largely because they're afraid to veer away from the outline, or just don't understand how to put an outline together. A book can be boring because of the way the story is planned out.

Writing a detailed story outline properly is a skill unto itself, and probably takes as much talent to do right as actually writing the novel. It certainly takes as much skill at story structure, plot, theme, pace, and flow. Get these wrong in the outline, and they'll probably be wrong in the novel. Slavishly following an outline can also lead to a boring novel.

Not outlining a novel can also lead to boredom, again, not because of the writing, but because some writers need an outline to get story structure/plot/theme/pace/flow all working together as they should.

Not outlining does not mean some sort of stream of consciousness, organic writng style. It means knowing that the outline of the novel is in chapter one, and the story structure/plot/theme/pace/flow is all generated by chapter one.

Sometimes method does mean bad. If you outline, the outline needs to be right, and if you don't outline, the opening has to be right, or you risk a boring novel, no matter how well you write it.

I have to use a basic outline for the current stories I have in production. However, that's because they're all media tie-in stories. I have to submit my proposal to the licensor, who wants to know exactly what I'm going to do with their product before they'll let me play with it.

Now, have I veered away from the proposal? Sure, but the basics to the story can't change once they've approved the work.

Work-for-hire novels/short stories are obviously a unique creature unto themselves, but if you want to play in that particular sandbox, then you have to play according to their rules.

However, having gotten used to that concept, my current WIP, an original fantasy novel, has a 14 page chapter breakdown outline. Again, I've already varied from the outline several times, but I'm still on the basic story.

For me, I LIKE doing outlines, character sketches, backgrounds, histories, etc. long before I ever start writing the story. If I "know" the world, it's easier to write in (and keep character's eye color, hair color, etc. straight), rather than just making it up on the fly.

But, then again, I think my training as a historian and an analyst tend to make me a fairly linear thinker. I CAN make the jump from point A to point G, but I need to know what B, C, D, E, and F probably are to feel comfortable.

Not everyone writes alike (thank goodness).

I see several people here who if I watched them work, I'd probably go nuts wondering how they do it, and I'd probably drive them nuts too. That's why, from a reader's perspective, book writing is like sausage making. The less you know about what goes into it, the more you can concentrate on just enjoying it.

I tried to outline once, and it was a dismal failure (not to mention how LONG it took to actually try to figure out what would come next).

What works for me is to setup a background for my characters up to the point where the story starts. By the time I finished outlining their historys, I know them intimately, so its then easier for me to allow them to lead the story wherever they want.

The histories aren't huge, usually just one or two paragraphs setting up how they came to be who they are. For some reason, this seems to make my writing come much easier.

Of course, this is my first book, so its not like I'm an expert or anything.

Julie Worth said:

I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

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I agree with you! But don't tell anyone!!!

mmmm...outlines

Hi all,

My first book I wrote using an outline, just changing it as I went along. I started my next big idea, tried to write an outline and the characters absolutely refused to have anything to do with it. It was the first experience for me to have this happen, and I must admit I was shocked. I had read about that particular experience on this board before, with other writers, and thought, "surely NOT--they are MY characters, they will do what I tell them to!"

And they said not.

So now we have compromised--I have no outline, and they perform to make my story. It goes well, and I think I will try without an outline from here on out. It is quite liberating.

I've found that outlining usually leads to a book that ends on the first page. It seems that whenever I do one, its gives me a false sense of completion, because I know exactly what is going to happen from beginning to end and I have no desire to write. It also allows the characters to develop freely rather than being bogged down to a preset outline. This is my instance, because when I write I just think of the end and start the beginning and make it up as I go along. Again, in my experience, outlining is a bad idea. Some people might love it. Not me.

Julie Worth said:

I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

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LOL I think he meant that whatever way is right for you, is, well, right for you.

Me, I can't outline. I'm with Stephen King on that one. That's not to say I don't take notes. I usually have a general idea of where the story is going to go. But I like now knowing the end. Makes it fun to write.

To me, outlining is too much lilke work, like doing a school report. Ick, I didn't go to Graduate School because I didn't want to write a Thesis.

I outline very fully. My outlines are about 75% of the finished novel.

These are outlines that include dialog, description, exposition....

Could be that anyone else looking at one of 'em would call it a "first draft." That I'm just calling it an outline to give myself permission to mess up, so that I won't take it too seriously and so I know that all this will change and be re-written before an editor sees it.

The bottom line on outlines is "do what works for you."

"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays
And every single one of them is right."

Outlines

It should be clear by now that what works, works. And there are probably a smany variation with outliners and non-outliners as there are writers.

I have a friend who does a very long, extremely detailed outline, but almost never follows it past chapter four or five. When he does veer away, he stops writing and does a second very long, extremely detailed outline from the point where he veered. When he again veers away, he does a third very long, very detailed outline. On and on until the novel is finished.

I've rather chew ground glass and crap marbles than even attempt to write this way, but it works very well for him.

I know non-outliners who start at page one and write straight through, others who write the ending first, still others who skip around and write all over the place until they somehow have a finished novel. I could do this if a ten million dollar advance depended on it.

I've ghosted a couple fo novels where the outline was given to me, and no veering allowed. That was a miserable, ulcerative experience, but I can't say the novels came out horrible. They didn't come out the way I would have written them, but I don't think they were junk, either.

The thing to remember, I think, is that agents, editors, and readers see only the finished product, and if they like it, how you got there won't matter to any of them.

What I'd say is do what you enjoy. Writing should be fun, and if the method you're using isn't a pleasure, change it. And method should produce a good publishable novel. If it doesn't change, try something new.

If you're getting right, leave it the heck alone, even if you're method involves chicken blood and flea gonads.

Julie Worth said:

I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

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Are you suggesting all people who plan things out are immensely boring? I can't tell.

In any case, I firmly believe there are a number of ways to write great fiction. I think it would be immensely boring if everyone used the same method to write (ok, there is one method most people use: butt in chair).

Writing

mistri said:

Are you suggesting all people who plan things out are immensely boring? I can't tell.

In any case, I firmly believe there are a number of ways to write great fiction. I think it would be immensely boring if everyone used the same method to write (ok, there is one method most people use: butt in chair).

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Yep, and even BIC doesn't apply to the writers I've known who write while standing up.