How common is this knowledge?

Thomas_Anderson · Jun 16, 2009

How common is the knowledge of the old myths where elves are weak against iron? I wrote a short story, and at the end my main character faces against a dark elf. During the fight, the protagonist and his ally use iron. I tried, but I'm having a lot of trouble working it in that elves are really weak against this element that doesn't come across as heavy handed infodumping.

Would it be fair of me to expect that the readers would know about elves and iron? If not, can somebody give me a pointer that'd help me work it in? Keep in mind this is a short story, so this isn't a whole lot of space to work with. Also, the elf isn't really the focus of the story, but simply one in a group of villains.

MargueriteMing · Jun 16, 2009

It doesn't come from Tolkien, it comes from old legends of faery.

Thomas_Anderson · Jun 16, 2009

I never claimed it did come from Tolkein.

megan_d · Jun 16, 2009

It didn't come from me either, in case you were wondering.

I don't think it's very common knowledge, but I think it would be easy enough to work n without infodumping. Does the MC know that elves are "allergic" to iron? If so, he could just say something like: I grabbed the iron rod, iron being the weakness of the elvish kind. (But better than that.) If he doesn't already know, then another character can tell him.

Marcus · Jun 16, 2009

I would suggest that if its not mainstream D&D based or World of Warcraft based knowledge, then I'd explain it in the work.
I've read a fair amount of fantasy, and I've never heard that one. That doesn't mean much though..

efkelley · Jun 16, 2009

Avid fantasy readers and dilettantes of mythology will likely have heard of this. The key is, have your characters heard of this?

"Iron. We need some iron."
"Iron? Why?"
"Cold iron is best. Iron that's been worked without fire."
"You're not making sense."
"I've heard it hurts them."
"I haven't heard that. I suppose it's worth a shot, though. Nothing else seems to be working."

mercs · Jun 17, 2009

I was aware of this, but I asked my sister who reads modern fantasy and urban fantasy and she didn't know...

The orginal idea was that elves and other fairy folk that represented Venus and so were beautiful, cheerful, musical and wore a lot of silver. Iron was the metal of Mars and war, so would be worn by the warrior races...

You could copy efkelly's idea or make it slightly humorous. I remember once on Buffy she stabbed some weird swamp creature with a wooden stake and her friend goes "how did you know a wooden stake through the heart would kill it?" to which she replied, "it's amazing how many things that can kill"...

calley · Jun 17, 2009

Definitely not common knowledge.

Shouldn't need an info dump, though, if it's not a huge villian; just a snippet of conversation like others have suggested should suit the purpose just fine.

Lhun · Jun 17, 2009

Butcher and Prattchett both used it so i'd say it's pretty common knowledge. You could check out Prattchett to see how he did it. He had some old customs from the time when elves where still common, like hanging horseshoes above doors, and explained about them, instead of an anatomical exposé about elves.

Parametric · Jun 17, 2009

To me, the iron thing is general knowledge. I can't remember where I first read about it. Heck, your protagonist could get this information from wikipedia.

Lisa Cox · Jun 17, 2009

I only found this out yesterday when I was researching ancient faery lore.

Cyia · Jun 17, 2009

It's a pretty basic component of traditional lore.

Paichka · Jun 17, 2009

Can I just say that the responses to this thread are hilarious?

"I've never heard of that. Not common knowledge."

"I've known about that for AGES! Totally common knowledge."

"I googled it. Does your protag have access to google?"

"Famous author X used it, so it's totally common knowledge."

Et cetera.

OP, I was familiar with the iron vs. elves thing, but that might only be because I read a lot of stories that play on those old myths. I would've said it was common knowledge that fairies & elves are allergic to iron, but being that the responses to this thread are about 50/50, I'd find some way to work it in.

In my WIP, I have a race of critters based on elves, and I make it clear they're allergic to iron. One of my characters thinks that another character might have [elvish] blood, so he makes her put her hand on an anvil. She asks why, and he says, "because iron burns them something fierce", or whatever. Quick little bit of dialogue that establishes the "rules" for fairykind in my WIP. Try something along those lines in your story.

ChaosTitan · Jun 17, 2009

It becomes common knowledge to those who do a bit of research on their subject.

redpbass · Jun 17, 2009

I'm only aware of it because I ran across that particular piece of information in an old book about fairies from about 1890 that focused on stories from the England/Wales/Scotland/Ireland area. Other than that one book, I haven't seen it anywhere but in occasional threads like this.

The book had several explanations for the effect, but they all seemed tainted by someone's own personal opinion, such as:

"Fairies and elves are weak against iron because they represent the past, and iron represents the future", meaning technology.

Another was that they are unholy, pagan things, and that particular story somehow tied in iron having an effect because of the church. Not sure how they pulled that off, as it's been about eight years since I read it.

~~~

So, the information is out there, but pretty much inaccessible unless you read the right books or visit the right sites.

Asking someone about this is like asking them if they know what a Road Bell is. Sure, a certain group of people probably know, and a lot of people will get the gist of it from the name or feel like they've heard of it somewhere before but can't recall. But overall? People won't know unless you tell them.

Parametric · Jun 17, 2009

Paichka said:
Can I just say that the responses to this thread are hilarious?

"I've never heard of that. Not common knowledge."

"I've known about that for AGES! Totally common knowledge."

"I googled it. Does your protag have access to google?"

"Famous author X used it, so it's totally common knowledge."

Et cetera.

This reminds me of the time I picked mythology as my presentation topic in German class. I lead off with the Brothers Grimm, and to get a little audience involvement, I ask who's heard of them.

Nobody.

I pick my jaw off the floor. Hansel and Gretel? Rumpelstiltskin? Rapunzel? Anybody?

Nobody.

The presentation bombs. Not one person can follow me as I talk about basic fairytales everyone learns as a kid. :rant:

Polenth · Jun 17, 2009

A short story using the concept is here: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/rambo_07_07/

I don't know if it'll help you work it in, but it shows a way of including the iron thing.

Lhun · Jun 17, 2009

Paichka said:
Can I just say that the responses to this thread are hilarious?<snip>

OP, I was familiar with the iron vs. elves thing, but that might only be because I read a lot of stories that play on those old myths. I would've said it was common knowledge that fairies & elves are allergic to iron, but being that the responses to this thread are about 50/50, I'd find some way to work it in.

Well that's pretty much the reasoning for deducing it's common knowledge from the fact that some famous authors used it. If you're writing about fey, odds are that most of your readers don't pick up your novel as the first about fey which they read, and odds are also that if they've read something before most of them read something from famous authors.
It's just like it's a pretty safe bet when writing murder mysteries, that most of your readers know Agatha Christie.

Lhun · Jun 17, 2009

Parametric said:
<snip>The presentation bombs. Not one person can follow me as I talk about basic fairytales everyone learns as a kid.

Definitly not your fault though. Heck, the same happens sometimes when someone in one of my philo classes starts talking about Kant, Popper, any other author whose name wasn't on the reading list. Or people start complaining because the Professor uses a text in the original english instead of a translation. A certain level of background knowledge can be expected.

mscelina · Jun 17, 2009

My first instinct was to say it was pretty common, but then again I collect mythologies and folklores and have for years. I actually play with this a little bit in the Asphodel series--it takes the intervention of a god for my elves to be able to tolerate using iron weapons.

johnnysannie · Jun 17, 2009

Probably not common knowledge; I've been into myths, legends, fairy tales, etc. since I was in sixth grade and I know it but I would hazard a wild guess that most folks probably don't.

Canotila · Jun 17, 2009

Holly Black uses it heavily in her urban fantasy faerie series, Tithe, Valiant, and again in Ironside, which are all pretty popular YA books.

veinglory · Jun 17, 2009

It seems to me that if the character uses iron knowing it will be an advantage, then they will inform the reader of this somehow. From the point of view of the reader does it matter if they know this is from myth or think you made it up? It is pretty common in fantasy convention, Dresden files etc.

kangolNcurlz · Jun 17, 2009

I think it's always good to err on the side of including the information because everyone who reads your story won't know this, and it might end up being confusing. I mean, unless you know that everyone who reads your story also reads other tales where this info is relayed....

BTW, I never knew this, but then again I don't read fantasy, but that doesn't mean I won't begin to enjoy it one day.

Fokker Aeroplanbau · Jun 17, 2009

As a reader I won't take offense, who would? Bringing back old concepts, or at least concepts that are not as mainsteam as Vampires dislike garlic, is hardly the level of problems writing fanatics usually have. Really, it just unlocks a litte nugget of knowledge that most people have ignored; more credit to you!

How common is this knowledge?

Thomas_Anderson

MargueriteMing

Thomas_Anderson

megan_d

Falling in the milk

Marcus

sept 5th and I'm Out

efkelley

ow

mercs

calley

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!

Parametric

Lisa Cox

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Paichka

The BIC-Believer

ChaosTitan

Around

redpbass

Parametric

Polenth

Mushroom

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

johnnysannie

Canotila

Sever your leg please.

veinglory

volitare nequeo

kangolNcurlz

Fokker Aeroplanbau