July Book Study - Foundation

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Fenika

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Hello, and welcome to the SF/F Book Study.

This thread is for discussion of Foundation by Isaac Asimov.

***Spoilers*** will be streaking through this thread unpredictably. You have been warned.

If anyone wants to compare to previous book studies:

2008:
Ender's Game (August)
Lies of Locke Lamora (September)
A Deepness in the Sky (October)
A Fire in the Deep (November)
Storm Front (December)

2009:
I Am Legend (January)
The Onion Girl (February)
Lord of Light (March)
Small Gods (April)
Beggars in Spain (May)
The Once and Future King (June)

Thank you to Broken Fingers for starting the book study!

Cheers

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Here is the list, compiled by Fingers, of possible discussion topics. Feel free to tackle something off the list or come up with your own points.
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First of all: Did you enjoy the book? Why or why not?
What was your impression of it?
And I’ll list some of the possible things we can discuss:
The Beginning:
- How effective was the opening hook?
- How effective was the first sentence? The first paragraph? The first page? The first chapter?
- When were you pulled into the author’s world? By the end of the first chapter?
- If not, when?
- How do you think this was accomplished? Or why do you think it wasn’t accomplished?
- What would you have done to change it/make it better?
- If you were an editor, what would your reaction be to the first chapter?
- Why do you think the average reader liked it so much?
And more…
The Protagonist:
- What did you like/dislike about the protagonist?
- How did the author introduce the protagonist?
- How did the author get you to become invested in the protagonist?
- What was different about the protagonist as opposed to other protagonists? What was the same? Did the author make the protag distinguishable? If so, how?
- What techniques did the author use to show the protagonist throughout the story?
- What were some of the characteristics the author gave the character and how did they work/not work?
The Characters:
- Did the author make the characters come alive for you?
- How did he/she do this?
- How were they described?
- How were they distinctive?
And more…
The Setting:
- Was the author’s world convincing?
- Did he/she make you feel you were there? How?
- What about the setting did you like? Not like?
- What would you have done differently?
And more….
The Plot/Story:
- Did you enjoy it? Why or why not?
- Was it different or similar to other plotlines in the genre? How?
- Was it believable? Predictable?
- Were there any twists, turns or surprises?
- Would you have thought of it? How does it compare to your own plotline of your WIP?
- Did it pull you through or did you have to wade through it?
- How was this done or how do you think it should’ve been done?
- If you were buying stories for a publisher, and this manuscript hit your desk (not knowing what you do now about its sales) would you have bought it or expected it to be successful?
- Why do you think the buying public enjoyed it so much?
- What variations, if any, would you have added to the storyline/plot?
And more…
The Style:
- What did you think of the author’s style of writing? Like it? Hate it?
- How much do you think this had to do with the success of the book, if any?
- What type of POV was used? How effective was it? Would the book have turned out different if the POV were done differently?
- How removed was the author from the story or how intrusive?
And more…
The Structure:
- How did the author unfold the story?
- Were the beginning, middle and end equally strong?
- How effective was the way the author gave you all the information?
Was it straightforward? Suspenseful? Predictable? Surprising?
- Could it have been done another way?
- Was it a linear structure or did the scenes jump around? How did this add/detract from the story or your enjoyment of it?
And more…..
The Theme:
- Was there any? What was it?
- Did you think it had an impact on your enjoyment of the story?
- Was it blatant or subtle?
- Do you think the average reader registered this?
- Do you think it may have affected him/her or contributed in any way to the success of the book?
And more…
Conflict:
- What was the main conflict?
- How was it handled?
- Was it a large part of the story or did the author keep it lying under the surface?
- What other conflicts did the author use in the story and when? (Internal and external.)
- What purpose did they serve?
- Would the story have been as enjoyable with less conflict? More?
- What types of conflict could’ve added to the story? Which conflicts subtracted from the story?
And more…
Dialogue:
- Was it realistic?
- Was it readable?
- How did the author handle ‘tags’?
- Was there a lot of dialogue or a little?
- Were there dialects? Slang? Profanity? Vulgarity?
And more…
The Ending:
- Was it satisfying? Why or why not?
- Did it come as a surprise or did you see it coming from page two?
- Would you have ended it the same?
- Was everything resolved?
- Would you be able to write a sequel?
- Would you buy another book from this author?
And more….
__________________
 

AceTachyon

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Here's a few more possible discussion topics:
--Fate/pre-determined vs. free will
--Hope vs. fatalism
--The will of the group vs. the will of the individual
--Hari Seldon: Harbinger of doom? Or bearer of glad tidings?
 

ELMontague

My copy just arrived today, so I'll start reading it shortly.
 

alleycat

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I requested it from the library. Will start it next week.
 

defcon6000

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I need to re-read this, it's been awhile, then I can add to the discussion. :)
 

Kitty Pryde

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I'm 25 pages in, and it isn't going very well. I'm giving it until page 75 because the book is so well loved, but gah! It's like Asimov spends all his words saying "My worldbuilding, let me show it to you!" The MC is boring and has almost no emotions or character traits. The overarcing plot sounds really interesting, but the minutiae of the plot are killing me with boringness.

Given the first page test in the bookstore, this book would totally fail. Maybe because he's explaining all sorts of stuff that was new then but now are old SF tropes? Like hyperspace, galactic empires, and space travel.

Anyways, I'm holding out for a character who has a personality to appear.
 

stephenf

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. The overarcing plot sounds really interesting, but the minutiae of the plot are killing me with boringness.
I can understand what you are saying.It's an issue that should be discussed later.But, it would be a shame to to pass this story over.There is a rely brilliant BBC dramatised version of the whole Foundation Trilogy,OK I know your meant to read it.It gives characters like Hari Seldon a voice that is missing in the books.You can find it as a download to your I-pod.
 

AceTachyon

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. The overarcing plot sounds really interesting, but the minutiae of the plot are killing me with boringness.
I can understand what you are saying.It's an issue that should be discussed later.

In the introduction, Asimov notes that the actual tale begins with "The Encyclopedists." The publishers of the first novel felt the series began too abruptly and asked him with write an "introductory" section to the story.

Hence, Gaal Dornick and the trial.
 

Etola

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Anyways, I'm holding out for a character who has a personality to appear.

Even when they do start appearing, the whole premise brings up the interesting question of how much of their actions are pre-destined. But they do start appearing, eventually...
 

ELMontague

OK, so I've finished the book. All in all, not bad, but not oh-my-God great. He has great ideas and a solid execution. I don't think this book would be a best seller in the modern market. I have no idea if it was back in the 50's and 60's.

I did find it interesting that this is a book that trumpets nuclear power as the panacea for all things, which in a way identifies it with the era it was written in.
 

ELMontague

Taking it into further consideration, the book felt an awful lot like a study done for the world building part of a bigger work.
 

Kitty Pryde

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I'm over a hundred pages in. So far the wooden characters and dialogue-infodump-as-plot are driving me crazy. Asimov actually has the characters say stuff like, "Blah blah infodump. As you know. But it bears repeating!" or "You know the history of our world. But I'll repeat it because it's relevant to the discussioN! Blah blah infodump." I'm rather disappointed.

The characters all seem to exist in a vacuum-no family, no interests, no personality traits other than being stern and serious and argumentative. I don't really care about any of them. Which brings up the question, why do I care about saving a society of boring, stern, personality-free men? I realize space is limited when he covers so much time and so many characters and their maneuverings, but it's not working for me. Peter F. Hamilton does similar galaxy-spanning apocalypse type stories, and he works in way more detail and characterization. His books are way longer, but they work better than this does IMO.

Setting feels very minimal. The story is all concept.

And as for the concept of psychohistory and predestination...I haven't decided whether it's totally brilliant, or just an easy way to shoehorn in plot points. "Well what if we do this?" "Nah, we can't do that...because we're not sposta! Let's just fart around and see what happens." It makes the plot points feel unconnected. Overall I am still not loving it, though I may read further to see why this book is so beloved by many.
 

AceTachyon

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I'm hearing that the writing style is at issue here. EL says good ideas and solid execution, but not OMG great. Kitty says "wooden characters and infodump dialogue."

The trilogy is known to be a classic of SF. Is style an issue when reading a "classic?" Should it be compared to today's style and measured against that?
 

Kitty Pryde

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I'm hearing that the writing style is at issue here. EL says good ideas and solid execution, but not OMG great. Kitty says "wooden characters and infodump dialogue."

The trilogy is known to be a classic of SF. Is style an issue when reading a "classic?" Should it be compared to today's style and measured against that?

I'm not comparing it to modern style.

I'm comparing it against other old-timey science fiction, so I'm already forgiving a lot. Such as no female characters, and other extremes of sexism. I'm 130 pages in and I'm pretty sure he hasn't so much as named a single chick! I believe one character has mentioned the existence of women somewhere on the planet at one time.

The stylistic problems are ones that aren't present in Heinlein's 50s stuff, nor Ray Bradbury's, PK Dick, A Canticle For Leibowitz, Vance, Silverberg, Alfred Bester...All that stuff is from the 50s and doesn't suffer from the same issues. Bradbury wrote beautiful haunting SF with brilliantly conceived characters, fer instance the same year 'Foundation' came out, Bradbury published 'The Veldt', a story which is perfect in every way. And no infodumps!
 

AceTachyon

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Bradbury wrote beautiful haunting SF with brilliantly conceived characters, fer instance the same year 'Foundation' came out, Bradbury published 'The Veldt', a story which is perfect in every way. And no infodumps!
True. Bradbury is one hell of a stylist.

Of note, the "Foundation" stories first came out between 1942 and 1944, before they were collected into a novel in '51.

Asimov was my introduction to SF after being weaned on Star Wars, BSG (original series), and Star Trek (TOS). "Nightfall" wasn't Shakespearean by any means, but it was intriguing and kept me in the story until the final lines.

Same with Foundation. Asimov isn't Bradbury, nor do I think he attempts to be. But the story kept me riveted every time I've read it. Not in the white-knuckled, pulse-pounding, heart-stopping way some other books do. However, I find myself continually turning pages to find out what happens next.

Of course, your mileage may vary.
 

MargueriteMing

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The series started with just Foundation, which was a collection of shorter works I believe, which is why it is structured in vingettes. When assembled, there is no continuity of characters. The story is more about ideas than the more modern emphasis on building character.

He then added two more volumes, making the Fondation trilogy. He later wrote two more sequels, and then two prequels. I read the prequels first, which are much better for characterization. When I got to Foundation, it was easier to get into, because I already had the background, and was willing to overlook some of the things other people have complained about.

I'm now half done with the last book, chronologically, Foundation and Earth, and I've mostly enjoyed the read. Infodumping is one of my biggest complaints; he devotes probably 20-30 pages of each book providing information that is part of the other books, just to make each novel "stand alone".
 
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