Urban Fantasy

Tasmin21 said:

Now, the horror vs. UF discussion I think could last a while. I tend to think of horror as being considerably darker than UF, but there is some pretty dark UF out there, so... Your mileage may vary.

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I've heard it this way, and it makes sense to me:

Dark Fantasy: horrible things happen, but the protag perserveres and there's at least hope at the end. --Even if people die, they won something with their lives, and things are better in that fictional world because of what the protags accomplished.

Stephen King wrote both kinds, to me: The Stand was dark fantasy--horrible things happened and people had to pay a heavy price, but those who stood strong got help in the end and people won--they won the right to start fresh and clean.

Horror: horrible things happen, and no matter what the protag does, it's just not quite good enough. --Readers are left with the feeling of sadness or despair, or that the protag, if he lives, will just be fighting a losing battle.

The best horror is that way, to me--Stephen King's Carrie--she tried her best, but her mom's and the town's horribleness broke her will and finally killed her. And not only that, but another girl is born who will go through the same because of her differentness.

This kinda sent my brain off on a tangent...

It seems to me, using Stephen King as an example, that the paranormal/supernatural aspects of UF tend to be incidental. I mean, they're part of the world, but the story itself is about something else (a mystery, a romance, whatever).

In horror novels, it seems like the paranormal/supernatural aspects ARE the story (Carrie, Firestarter, etc.), usually because they're unheard of or horrific. They aren't part of the world.

Very useful way of looking at it, Tas. Likewise, if the romantic elements are the story, it's paranormal romance.

GregB said:

Very useful way of looking at it, Tas. Likewise, if the romantic elements are the story, it's paranormal romance.

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I've said much the same thing in other places and been roundly criticized for it.

But here's another thing that I think separates "genre" fantasy from what I would call "literary fantasy." I first made this observation about one of my favorite books, Sean Stewart's Perfect Circle.

Now, is that book urban fantasy? It takes place in a city, it has ghosts and a man who can speak to the dead. It's written in first person, and has a flawed loner protagonist. Typical urban fantasy. Except, for me it isn't.

And the reason is this: Perfect Circle is, above all, a novel about family, the connections between people, and the complexities of human relationships. The fantasy elements are there to drive the story, to provide a template where these universal themes can be explored. So I consider it literary fantasy.

In genre uf (and I include my own books) the fantasy elements are the story. It's about the way magic works, or the struggle against supernatural creatures, or of creating a very different world than the one we know.

Now, certainly, such things as relationships among people are present, and important. Otherwise the book would be rather one dimensional. But they are not the primary focus. The primary focus is the fantasy elements, without which there would be no story. Those elements are an end in themselves, not a device to illuminate other issues.

Of course, many books are not cut and dried, and you can find books that are hard to classify one way or another, which is as should be. Just my slant on it.

SWickham said:

Again, more interesting ideas about genre.

I saw someone blog today about futuristic urban fantasy. As in, does UF have to be set in the present, without it being called science fiction??

I'd like my novel to be labeled Urban Science Fiction, but don't think that will catch on...lol
(thanks everyone for keeping the thread alive!!)

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Urban sci-fi how?

rugcat said:

I've said much the same thing in other places and been roundly criticized for it.

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That doesn't mean you weren't right.

Of course, many books are not cut and dried, and you can find books that are hard to classify one way or another, which is as should be. Just my slant on it.

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No, I definitely thing you've identified one common way to distinguish literary from genre fiction: a literary work is often (not always) "about" the theme. Lonesome Dove isn't a genre Western because it's not about a cattle drive, even though it's about a cattle drive.

I write genre fiction. Mob Rules has a theme, I guess, but I actually did some revision to make sure it wasn't getting in the way.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Urban sci-fi how?

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I'd guess most 80s cyberpunk was "urban sci-fi."

GregB said:

Likewise, if the romantic elements are the story, it's paranormal romance.

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Partially disagree. I'd have to qualify your statement to consider the overall importance of the romantic element. Having romance in a book doesn't make it a Romance, so having a romantic element in the story won't automatically make it Paranormal Romance. In order to be a Romance, the romance has to be The Strongest element of the book--it's the point of the story, not just a part of it.

GregB said:

I'd guess most 80s cyberpunk was "urban sci-fi."

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Yeah. So my question was, what makes his "urban sci-i" a new and useful classification?

ChaosTitan said:

In order to be a Romance, the romance has to be The Strongest element of the book--it's the point of the story, not just a part of it.

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I agree, and that's what I thought I said.

ETA: Perhaps I should have put "ARE" in all caps as Tas did.

ChaosTitan said:

Partially disagree. I'd have to qualify your statement to consider the overall importance of the romantic element. Having romance in a book doesn't make it a Romance, so having a romantic element in the story won't automatically make it Paranormal Romance. In order to be a Romance, the romance has to be The Strongest element of the book--it's the point of the story, not just a part of it.

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That's exactly what he said, i thought...::looking back::

GregB said:

if the romantic elements are the story, it's paranormal romance.

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If the romance elements *are* the story. That's the same as

the romance has to be The Strongest element of the book--it's the point of the story

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Right?

cat

GregB said:

I agree, and that's what I thought I said.

ETA: Perhaps I should have put "ARE" in all caps as Tas did.

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You did.

Apologies for my lack of comprehension skills this morning. *sigh*

In that case, I agree with you.

rugcat said:

...
Now, is that book urban fantasy? It takes place in a city, it has ghosts and a man who can speak to the dead. It's written in first person, and has a flawed loner protagonist. Typical urban fantasy. Except, for me it isn't.

And the reason is this: Perfect Circle is, above all, a novel about family, the connections between people, and the complexities of human relationships. The fantasy elements are there to drive the story, to provide a template where these universal themes can be explored. So I consider it literary fantasy.

....

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Wow, you have basically just summed up the kind of thing i write. No wonder I can't squeeze it into the UF mould. I've been calling it mythic fantasy for now.

SWickham said:

Is this in reference to my post about an urban sci-fi? Because then he's a she and I only meant it for my own benefit since I use rubber science to explain my fantasy. If that makes any sense LOL. And I was only joking.

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Hehe... I'm terrible with gender online, sorry.

I wasn't being entirely serious either. But I think that urban sci-fi does describe a certain body of work out there, that isn't really cyber-punk, or postcyberpunk, or steam-punk, or whatever. Especially some of the augemented reality stories. I write some stuff that I think could be described as "urban sci-fi", as well. So I as just wondering what specific elements in your stories gave you the idea. Apologies.

Nakhlasmoke said:

Wow, you have basically just summed up the kind of thing i write. No wonder I can't squeeze it into the UF mould. I've been calling it mythic fantasy for now.

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Just add sparkles somewhere. That'll make it more commercial friendly.

Shoeless said:

Just add sparkles somewhere. That'll make it more commercial friendly.

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I seriously need a poster like that in Buffy theme plastered on my wall.

Fenika said:

I seriously need a poster like that in Buffy theme plastered on my wall.

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Will a t-shirt do?

rugcat said:

If you're a fan of the mystery genre, check out Mike Carey's UF Felix Castor novels.

Also, fellow AW member HConn has a terrific dark UF, mystery oriented, also no vamps, coming out this month from Del Rey -- Child Of Fire.

Mine have no vamps and no werewolves.

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I'm reading Child of Fire right now and thoroughly enjoying it. A great read and I can highly reccommend it!

I just want to thank S Wickham for creating this thread. I've learned a lot from reading it not least that my novel definitely has a UF theme running through it.

I think getting close to 14 pages proves it was a good choice!