The "Numbers Game" - just how does it work

Sepisllib · Oct 7, 2009

I have my book with PA - yup, that's right, and disappointment mixes with frustration, however I readily acknowledge that it's all my fault.

That said - my first royalty check was for just $13 and they advised it was under the minimum to send me ($49) so will wait and see where this all heads.

B & N lists my book at around 700,000 in position, one it's been in for several months now, however at first it was listed as being in sales status of around 200,000 and I was just wanting to understand these figures.

Does that mean that in the good ole US of A for every 700,000 books sold mine sells just one (1). Is that how this works?

Plus - I see it now is advertised in India - have no idea of the price, however I am sure it's too high.

It's impossible for me to get a feel for how my mistake is selling - there is no accurate method for determining the figures.

Well - enough said, I presently am finishing up my 11th one and am going with a different agency, publisher if possible. Name of it is "Coffee Creek" and it will join the other 10 in facing their fate.

I am praying for one of my books to be a good one, deserving of it's fate, because the majority of my income from book sales goes directly to my church for kids and training for new ministers in the faith. I don't need the income, but the church surely could do great things with additional income.

God Bless

Bill

ChristineR · Oct 7, 2009

700,000 means that there are 699,999 books at B & N that are selling better than yours. I don't know about B & N, but if you find your book on Amazon, this site will give you a rough idea of what your actual Amazon sales are. It is probably only around one copy sold a year.

The Indian sites don't actually have your book. They know about your book because it's in the international database and they're tied into it, same as B & N. They calculate how much it would cost for them to get a copy of your book from PA and get it to India, and that's the price they charge. That's why it's so expensive, but it's there to Indians who want the book.

DeadlyAccurate · Oct 7, 2009

Sepisllib said:
That said - my first royalty check was for just $13 and they advised it was under the minimum to send me ($49) so will wait and see where this all heads.

They told you they won't send you a check until your royalties reach $49?

DaveKuzminski · Oct 7, 2009

Is that stated in your contract?

LexiCan · Oct 7, 2009

That royalty minimum must be new. My first check last year was for something like $14.95. However, I have see posts one the PAMB from authors who expressed their disappointment, this past August, in receiving checks in the teens. If their is a minimum, shouldn't it be stated somewhere in Bill's contract. I received nothing about a check minimum.
What about the authors who's sales never go past $49....does that mean they NEVER get a royalty check? Sounds fishy to me.

Scribhneoir · Oct 7, 2009

LexiCan said:
What about the authors who's sales never go past $49....does that mean they NEVER get a royalty check?

Sounds like it. They don't pay royalties on author sales and how many PA authors will likely sell enough through the PA website or Amazon or book store special orders to reach $49 in royalties? But if they do manage to sell, say, $45 worth, that's money that stays in PA's pocket because it's below the check threshold.

LexiCan · Oct 7, 2009

I don't know, Bill, that just sounds wrong to me. Then again, it is PA.

Sepisllib · Oct 7, 2009

Yes - it's in "My" contract

I know - I know.....

I have the e-mail to that effect and so I double checked my contract and it is there in black and white.

Guess I was thinking that if 700,000 books are sold then one of mine sells - and I have no idea how many books are sold in this nation each and every day.

I know for sure that there have been 12 books sold - Amazon sold one to my cousin and another one to a friend of mine and I purchased 10 to give to family. It was less expensive than taking one of the multitude of special offers from PA.

In meantime - my book, "Coffee Creek" is at 200,000 words and I have finished it and trying to edit it now. My wife is much better editing and she is on the case. In meantime I have been searching for a good, honest, reliable and forthright agent for this one.

More in my peabrain just waiting to burst out ----

God Bless

Bill

Sepisllib · Oct 7, 2009

ChristineR said:
700,000 means that there are 699,999 books at B & N that are selling better than yours. I don't know about B & N, but if you find your book on Amazon, this site will give you a rough idea of what your actual Amazon sales are. It is probably only around one copy sold a year.

The Indian sites don't actually have your book. They know about your book because it's in the international database and they're tied into it, same as B & N. They calculate how much it would cost for them to get a copy of your book from PA and get it to India, and that's the price they charge. That's why it's so expensive, but it's there to Indians who want the book.

Just took a look at the "sales rank" on another Amazon sales tracking site --- my book was ranked at 3,400,000 (some odd numbers in there).

Sad!

God Bless

Bill

Gillhoughly · Oct 7, 2009

Welcome, Sepisllib! :welcome:

There is an excellent "share your work" forum here on AW.

When you're ready, please do check it out. The other writers here can certainly help with feedback.

There are also people willing to beta read. Never hurts to ask!

High five to you for dusting off and moving on from PA.

deepprincealain · Oct 7, 2009

Welcome, Bill!

Sounds like they must have made a change from a PA contract I remember seeing previously...

We're a good group, and I think when you're ready, share your work can really help.

DaveKuzminski · Oct 7, 2009

Sepisllib said:
I know - I know.....

I have the e-mail to that effect and so I double checked my contract and it is there in black and white.

If you will, could you email me a copy of your contract?

By the way, I recall reading somewhere that when a business holds your funds in an interest bearing account until a certain time or condition is met, they have to also include what your funds earned in interest. Of course, you should ask an attorney or an accountant about that.

CaoPaux · Oct 7, 2009

Adding for the sake of discussion: While it's not unheard of for publishers to hold royalties until X amount, the threshold is rarely more than $25.

ResearchGuy · Oct 8, 2009

Sepisllib said:
. . . I have been searching for a good, honest, reliable and forthright agent for this one.. . .

See the resource list in my booklet The Pursuit of Publishing: An Unvarnished Guide for the Perplexed. Free pdf. Bear in mind: the "homework" in it is essential.

--Ken

Sepisllib · Oct 8, 2009

CaoPaux said:
Adding for the sake of discussion: While it's not unheard of for publishers to hold royalties until X amount, the threshold is rarely more than $25.

Paragraph 15 of contract dated April 9, 2009

Statement of Account:
The Publisher agrees to render and forward to the Author, in the months of February and August next succeeding the date of publication of the Work, and thereafter semi-annual statements of accoutn for so long as copies of the Work subject to royalty are sold. With respect to copies sold, the statement shall indicate the price of each copy sold. The statement shall also indicate both the total royalties payable to Author on sales during the accounting period and a breakdown indicating the royalties attributable to specific prices and/or discount percentages, and the market(s) where any sales were made, e,g. U.S. or U.K. With each royalty statement, Publisher shall include payment for any amount due and owing as indicated in the statement; however, Author agrees that Publisher shall withhold royalty payments until the amount or royalties payable has reached an aggregate of forty-nine dollars. Any amounts withheld shall be retained by Publisher until the end of the royalty period during which publication of the book is discontinues. At that time, the amount retained shall be paid to Author.

God Bless

Bill

DaveKuzminski · Oct 8, 2009

I notice it doesn't include any interest.

Sepisllib · Oct 9, 2009

No - and I don't know whether this enters the arena of "Federal" influence or not. At this point I don't really care!

Thank you, ResearchGuy, for the information you provided. I pray you don't mind if I printed it off for future reading. I am fairly active in preparing for leaving the cold nothern state of Iowa for points south and once there will address many issues. I also have another book in mind and it has been developing in my pea brain enough that I simply must begin soon.

In meantime - I have done what I have done. I have made many mistakes in my life and I always move on and set the bad experiences aside.

God Bless

Bill

Susan Gable · Oct 9, 2009

Sepisllib said:
Any amounts withheld shall be retained by Publisher until the end of the royalty period during which publication of the book is discontinues. At that time, the amount retained shall be paid to Author.

Sooooo...since they're a POD outfit, exactly how do they define "publication of the book is discontinued?" Does that mean that they can keep the money the full 7 years of the contract?

Also...most contracts I've seen say that the amount will be withheld UNTIL the amount reaches the threshold figure. This don't say that. Hmmmmm....

Susan G.

Eirin · Oct 9, 2009

Susan Gable said:
Sooooo...since they're a POD outfit, exactly how do they define "publication of the book is discontinued?" Does that mean that they can keep the money the full 7 years of the contract?

Until the contract expires or the author is released, I imagine. Or until that bird finally wears away the mountain

Also...most contracts I've seen say that the amount will be withheld UNTIL the amount reaches the threshold figure. This don't say that. Hmmmmm....

I expect a book could quite easily spend its contractual lifetime at PA without reaching the threshold figure, poor thing.

ResearchGuy · Oct 9, 2009

Sepisllib said:
. . . Thank you, ResearchGuy, for the information you provided. I pray you don't mind if I printed it off for future reading. . . .

The "Pursuit" booklet? Sure, print if you wish for personal use. You have my explicit permission, for the record. Anyone who downloads it is likewise welcome to print a copy for personal use.

Folks who want to buy a nice printed, bound copy can get it via Lulu.com. But I am fine with printing a copy of the free download from my website.

--Ken

merrihiatt · Oct 9, 2009

This also makes me wonder if an author agrees to continue their contract for an additional seven years, does that mean they wouldn't receive royalties (since their contract would still be active) until royalties reached $49? I doubt mine ever will. Of course, I'm not renewing with PA and will begin sending my "end my contract" notices well in advance of the three-month notification PA asked for in my contract before the automatic additional seven-year renewal.

Welcome, Bill! :welcome:

Sepisllib · Oct 10, 2009

merrihiatt said:
This also makes me wonder if an author agrees to continue their contract for an additional seven years, does that mean they wouldn't receive royalties (since their contract would still be active) until royalties reached $49? I doubt mine ever will. Of course, I'm not renewing with PA and will begin sending my "end my contract" notices well in advance of the three-month notification PA asked for in my contract before the automatic additional seven-year renewal.

Welcome, Bill!

When I supplied them with all the information, advertisers, notices, family e-mail addresses, and all of the area bookstores complete with phone numbers and addresses back in May, I really thought I was off to a running start. After waiting and waiting I discovered that not a one of my relatives received the promised e-mail notifications, and thus far not a single book signing. Although I prompted them a couple times, their reply was that many were in front of me and I had to wait my turn in order for the necessary contacts to be made. The other day I received another notice for me to supply the same information once again and I replied to them that nothing came of the original effort. Their reply was to ask for this information all over again.

This is getting interesting, it keeps me entertained to see how inept management works, however it never ceases to amaze me that a new and special twist enters.

In the meantime

God Bless

Bill

Eirin · Oct 10, 2009

Sepisllib said:
...

This is getting interesting, it keeps me entertained to see how inept management works, however it never ceases to amaze me that a new and special twist enters.
...

PA management isn't inept. It's malicious.

merrihiatt · Oct 10, 2009

Bill, I had a similar experience. My contract states that PA will promote the work "at their discretion." I mistakenly listened to folks on the PA message board and PA's own information posted on their website, none of which matters. What is written in the contract is really all that matters and PA has made sure they didn't obligate themselves to actually promote or market any of their authors' books.

circlexranch · Oct 11, 2009

Welcome Bill! Get on the editing and keep after it. 200K is too long, maybe it needs to be two books. Are the books for the Christian fiction market? If so, check out agent Rachelle Gardner's blog. She is one of the best out there!

The "Numbers Game" - just how does it work

Truth, gentle or not!

What happened?

Absolutely Fazed

Preditors & Editors

practical experience, FTW

Reinventing Myself

practical experience, FTW

Truth, gentle or not!

Truth, gentle or not!

Grumpy writer and editor

Preditors & Editors

Mostly Harmless

Resident Curmudgeon

Truth, gentle or not!

Preditors & Editors

Truth, gentle or not!

Dreamer of dreams, teller of tales

Likes picnic with roast beef.

Resident Curmudgeon

Writing! Writing! Writing!

Truth, gentle or not!

Likes picnic with roast beef.

Writing! Writing! Writing!

Terri Coop has been known to write