musicals

aceinc1 · Nov 21, 2009

guys,

I might have discussed this before so I'd like to re-open.

I have an indea for a musical. the outline is ready but HOW do I write the script? I read MOULIN ROUGE but I couldn't follow. how do you go by writing musicals?

thanks in advance.
regards,
Ace.Inc1

Stijn Hommes · Nov 23, 2009

Writing musicals is pretty much the same as writing plays except that musicals have songs in them. You might want to have this moved to the playwriting subforum.

nmstevens · Nov 23, 2009

Stijn Hommes said:
Writing musicals is pretty much the same as writing plays except that musicals have songs in them. You might want to have this moved to the playwriting subforum.

I'm presuming that Ace is talking about writing a movie musical.

The answer, quite simply, is that you have to write "the book" -- the script to the musical including the words and the lyrics, and you or somebody else, has to write the music.

The two have to go together. Moulin Rouge was a very special case because it worked pre-existing songs into the body of the movie. You can only do that if you've got a project that is driven by a very powerful writer-director that starts with a pitch that somebody buys up front -- because they have to buy into the idea, up front that they're going to make this movie and commit to buying the rights to all of these contemporary songs that will be incorporated into it, from the script stage onward.

That is a very unusual situation and one that you are not likely to find yourself in -- unless the nature of the Indian film making business is such that you can simply grab copyrighted songs and use them and not bother paying for them. Even if so, such movies could never leave home.

So unless you can also write music and lyrics as well as make movies (to the extent that you can) -- then you're going to have to collaborate with somebody who can.

NMS

aceinc1 · Nov 24, 2009

once and for the last time,

once and for the last time,

I repeat, once and for the last time,

I WANNA MAKE ONLY HOLLYWOOD MOVIES, NO MATTER WHAT EFFORT IT TAKES, I'LL PUT IT/ or no film making whatsoever.

(who says Indians can't pursue Uncle Sam's Hollywood dream directly)

Thanks again NMS for the reply. could you please refer to my situation as a Hollywood writer, you can call me less educated, maybe a guy whose English resembles that of a high school dropout, I wouldn't mind that.

AGREED there are exceptions, I do want to do some International cinema, the stuff that plays in film festivals and some art houses to recoup investments.

please, please and I repeat, please refer to me as a Hollywood wannabe.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

clockwork · Nov 25, 2009

Cool your jets, ace. NMS's advice applies to whatever market you're aiming at.

icerose · Nov 25, 2009

Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

In the past 20 years that I can think of there have been 2. That's right 2. One was based on pre-existing, popular story with the music already written.

The Phantom of the Opera.

The second was Moulin Rouge, that was a very special case.

Stage plays can be musicals. Movies other than cartoons are very very very very rarely musicals. Did I mention it's very rare?

If you're looking to break into hollywood FORGET WRITING A MUSICAL. You're not going to sell it. Bollywood does musicals. Hollywood does not.

Musicals went out of fashion for the most part in the 1950's in Hollywood.

Eh, just remembered another one. Chicago. It was based on a broadway play.

nmstevens · Nov 25, 2009

icerose said:
Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

In the past 20 years that I can think of there have been 2. That's right 2. One was based on pre-existing, popular story with the music already written.

The Phantom of the Opera.

The second was Moulin Rouge, that was a very special case.

Stage plays can be musicals. Movies other than cartoons are very very very very rarely musicals. Did I mention it's very rare?

If you're looking to break into hollywood FORGET WRITING A MUSICAL. You're not going to sell it. Bollywood does musicals. Hollywood does not.

Musicals went out of fashion for the most part in the 1950's in Hollywood.

Eh, just remembered another one. Chicago. It was based on a broadway play.

And also FAME which came out recently -- a remake of a successful movie (and a television series) -- and also NINE, due to come out soon, based on a successful Broadway show, which in turn, was based on a famous motion picture.

All of these movies, without exception were *producer* driven, because they were either based on pre-existing properties or, as with Moulin Rouge, required acquiring the rights to pre-existing songs in order to come into existence.

None of them started with a spec script. They started with a producer who had access to a lot of money and a lot of pull and a lot of street cred in Hollywood.

If Ace is talking about the market for a selling a spec for an indie musical based on nothing (and I still don't know whether he even has the songs for it or not) -- then all I can suggest is that he gets into a time machine and goes back in time at least half a century -- sixty or seventy years might be better.

Because that was the last time that Hollywood was making original movies musicals on a regular basis.

And if he actually had a time machine, I could actually think of much better uses for it than that.

NMS

clockwork · Nov 25, 2009

Rent, Sweeney Todd - again, both based on successful and pre-existing Broadway material.

teacherdrama · Nov 25, 2009

icerose said:
Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

Hollywood doesn't make musicals.

In the past 20 years that I can think of there have been 2. That's right 2. One was based on pre-existing, popular story with the music already written.

The Phantom of the Opera.

The second was Moulin Rouge, that was a very special case.

Stage plays can be musicals. Movies other than cartoons are very very very very rarely musicals. Did I mention it's very rare?

If you're looking to break into hollywood FORGET WRITING A MUSICAL. You're not going to sell it. Bollywood does musicals. Hollywood does not.

Musicals went out of fashion for the most part in the 1950's in Hollywood.

Eh, just remembered another one. Chicago. It was based on a broadway play.

Rent, The Producers, Hairspray, Chicago, Evita, Phantom, Sweeney Todd, Dreamgirls, Moulin Rouge, Dancer in the Dark (which is technically a musical), Once (also, kind of a musical) - plus the animated one ie Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, Hunchback, Pocahontas, Mulan -- all of which qualify as musicals. Nine is coming out next month and there are several more in the pipes. The musical is NOT dead. Don't listen to icerose.

I have a degree in theater - scriptwriting and dramaturgy - PM me and we can talk about your idea...I'll see if I can help....

mscelina · Nov 25, 2009

But none of those musicals were written FOR the movies. Those plays were written for the STAGE, save for Moulin Rouge and the Disney stuff (which shouldn't count). There is a difference script wise between a standard big musical book and a movie script.

First off, OP, I seriously doubt that any musical written directly for the screen is going to get a nibble. Musicals are difficult to cast and a huge expense. Unless you're a huge name, like Lloyd Webber or Sondheim, the chances of a studio biting are slim to non-existent.

Look at the list of musicals made into movies above. Notice anything interesting? Again, save the Disney crap and Moulin Rouge, all of those musicals originated on the stage and were HUGE successes. Hell, Phantom has been running on Broadway for 22 years. The Disney crap worked backwards, starting as animated features and then some of them moving onto the stage.

Don't be so quick to disparage the theater as a genuine and natural place for a musical to begin. Write a good enough play and Hollywood will come knocking. But before you get a nibble from the movies, I'd be willing to bet my well-over-a-decade career in professional theater and the time I spent studying playwriting with Howard Stern that without a big name writer or lyricist or composer attached to the script, or at the very least a reasonable Broadway run, the movie business isn't going to want to take a chance.

Shoot for the stage. That's your best and quickest route to gaining Hollywood's attention.

icerose · Nov 25, 2009

teacherdrama said:
Rent, The Producers, Hairspray, Chicago, Evita, Phantom, Sweeney Todd, Dreamgirls, Moulin Rouge, Dancer in the Dark (which is technically a musical), Once (also, kind of a musical) - plus the animated one ie Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, Hunchback, Pocahontas, Mulan -- all of which qualify as musicals. Nine is coming out next month and there are several more in the pipes. The musical is NOT dead. Don't listen to icerose.

I have a degree in theater - scriptwriting and dramaturgy - PM me and we can talk about your idea...I'll see if I can help....

I don't really see how your post changes everything. EVERYTHING you listed was either a cartoon aka studio generated, or a MAJOR success on broadway first also studio generated.

So how does this apply to spec scripts exactly?

icerose · Nov 25, 2009

How about this teacherdrama. You go and find me one, just one musical that has been purchased from a spec script from an unknown writer in hollywood in the past 30 years and I will retract my statement. Just one. Go.

teacherdrama · Nov 25, 2009

Here's two:

Colma: The Musical -- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0784977/

Open House -- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0340883/

Were they big successes? No, but they were original musicals written for the screen.
I'm not saying pursuing an original musical for the screen is a good idea, but it CAN be done if you're willing to work on a small budget.

Dancer in the Dark and Once were both moderately more successful - also both musicals

Retract away.

mscelina · Nov 25, 2009

*sigh*

teacherdrama, you told another poster not to listen to icerose. The golden rule of the board is "Respect your fellow writer." It's not very respectful to march in and dismiss her post as if it's not worth listening to. It was a helpful post--and accurate too. You and I have our backgrounds in theater. And no, the musical's not dead--on the stage. The musicals made in Hollywood over the past few years have been adapted from the stage or went through the Disney animation studio's movie mill.

You came up with two minor, unknown independent films that were musicals. Yay--that's good. But the first retraction that needs to come from this is from you. Every writer's input is valuable on this board. Dismissing someone's post like that isn't a very good way to introduce yourself to the forum.

Just sayin'.

teacherdrama · Nov 25, 2009

Honestly, it seems like the road should go both ways - the OP was not exactly treated very fairly here. He had a dream and was shut down instantly. Just because it's not done as a regular thing, doesn't mean his dream of a musical should be squashed as callously as it was. Give a little hope - maybe his idea is the idea that could catapult the musical back to the mainstream.

Or, maybe his aspirations are for an indie musical - which CAN be done.

I'm sorry if I stepped on toes here, but I couldn't let false information go out (only two musicals in 20 years?) unanswered. It simply isn't true.

Exir · Nov 25, 2009

Careful, you're using some pretty loaded words here. Better than "false information" would be "mistaken". We're all writers who are helping each other here.

creativexec · Nov 25, 2009

Yes, musicals are back in vogue, and there have been plenty in the last few years. CHICAGO jump-started the trend that had ended in the 80s with ANNIE.

However, as it's been said, if you're trying to break into the Hollywood script trade, do NOT write a musical.

At this point in time, Hollywood doesn't seem interested in original musicals. The recent FAME (which was a remake but original) tanked at the box-office. The explosive HIGH SCHOOL MUSICAL franchise did well at the box-office, thanks to its uber-successful TV tie-in.

For the most part, Hollywood adapts successful Broadway musicals to film. (Ironically, Broadway adapts successful Hollywood movies for the stage.)

If you really want to write a musical - write it for the stage. In the unlikely chance that it becomes a big hit, Hollywood will call.

If you want to write Hollywood films, read the trades and see the kinds of scripts new writers have that enable them to break through.

If you were doing your homework, you wouldn't have a cockamamie idea to write a film musical.

icerose · Nov 25, 2009

teacherdrama said:
Here's two:

Colma: The Musical -- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0784977/

Open House -- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0340883/

Were they big successes? No, but they were original musicals written for the screen.
I'm not saying pursuing an original musical for the screen is a good idea, but it CAN be done if you're willing to work on a small budget.

Dancer in the Dark and Once were both moderately more successful - also both musicals

Retract away.

I didn't say indie, I said HOLLYWOOD. You haven't provided an example yet, so I don't see the need to retract my statement.

teacherdrama said:
Honestly, it seems like the road should go both ways - the OP was not exactly treated very fairly here. He had a dream and was shut down instantly. Just because it's not done as a regular thing, doesn't mean his dream of a musical should be squashed as callously as it was. Give a little hope - maybe his idea is the idea that could catapult the musical back to the mainstream.

Or, maybe his aspirations are for an indie musical - which CAN be done.

I'm sorry if I stepped on toes here, but I couldn't let false information go out (only two musicals in 20 years?) unanswered. It simply isn't true.

I said that I could think of. If you read my post above it was based on what I could think of off the top of my head.

He wants to break into Hollywood. A very tough market. He makes it extra tough by English being his second language. Not only is he an unknown but his English isn't up to par. On top of it he wants to break in using an astronmically long shot it doesn't even exist on the radar at this very moment.

So I think it's very much a good idea to say so. If I didn't, it would be highly irresponsible of me.

You want to foster dreams, so be it, foster away. It won't keep me from injecting the reality of the situation into it.

creativexec · Nov 25, 2009

HAIRSPRAY was a big hit and MAMMA MIA! was a worldwide smash hit.

But Ace said he wanted to make HOLLYWOOD movies. Writing an original musical is not Hollywood's idea of a Hollywood movie. Ace needs to closely examine what sorts of projects Hollywood is looking for and where they come from.

mario_c · Nov 25, 2009

Jeez, what a bunch of divas in here.

We're ready to put on a show over here.

Anyway, Hollywood makes musicals that are previously established on Broadway. Yes, even today. Just like Broadway apes all the Hollywood hits in greater numbers (Toxic Avenger: The Musical, anyone?) but I digress. So the question is, can an unknown writer sell a spec script that is a musical?

No. Any more than one can sell a western* or historical epic, the financial expense is too great to risk on unproven talent. Would you let a kid in the mailroom sit on the board, even if you thought he was exceptionally bright and charismatic? Of course not, because he hasn't proven himself in business in a meaningful way. Do you think Hollywood is different?

Some indie guys make musicals on their own (~~Beach Blanket Psycho~~, er Psycho Beach Party anyone?). But it remains a Broadway thing. (Yet another reason to love Gotham.)

I would suggest coming to London or NYC or another city with a strong theater network and staging it as a play. Or filming it low budget and marketing it the indie way. At least it will get done. I would suggest these things to the OP too, if only he were interested in participating in a discussion, but apparently not.

*I know, I know, Brigands Of Rattlebourge. I am amazed that he did that. Being a fantastic writer still counts for something in Hollywood, I guess.

aceinc1 · Nov 25, 2009

okay,

first, my mentor told me write what you want to see, that way you'll have a draft you're proud of.

I have an idea for a musical. so my question was how to go about WRITING IT.

I know I have not yet made a single sale in the past 9 years but at least I lived my movies.

had I seen a movie and said this is what I'll write to sell and make a 7-figure-deal and that would've not happened I'd be very frustrated and be more bitter and bitchy.

please post on writing aspects and don't fight over will it happen or not.

to ICEROSE: I believed indie is also Hollywood as long as they have an office in LA.

I have 8 movies and they haven't sold and I know where I went wrong with them, I went wrong at two places. one, thinking, I might not be able to direct a film. so to prove to myslef that I can direct I ventured into my first 4. two, they were not meant with the intent of sale. I shelled $6k (for 8 films including boarding and lodging expenses) on something with no intent of returns. so poeple, don't worry about it getting made, I first wanna write what I wanna see and if I get a kick out of it and if it is in my reach as far as budget is concerned, I'll pull it myself and as far as the backlog 8 films I am trying to get US and UK self-distribution theatrical by arranging for prints and reverse-telecine.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

icerose · Nov 26, 2009

Then you should have stated you wanted to have it shot in the US. Hollywood isn't California. Hollywood is a city in California. Only the big boys that I know of have an address in Hollywood. You'll have the smaller ones in LA, Burbank, Sacrimento, Fresno and what not, but not generally in Hollywood. So when you say "hollywood" I think the big players.

mario_c · Nov 26, 2009

A script is a script is a script. If you include lyrics, you have to format them so it reads line by line instead of a block. For the music, you could include a CD.

OK? Ask the question, it's much easier.

aceinc1 · Nov 26, 2009

eureka! eureka!

icerose said:
Then you should have stated you wanted to have it shot in the US.

that's all I want.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

TMazz · Nov 28, 2009

I'm no expert on this, but I have had a short independent musical produced and have worked for development execs, so I can give some insight from those experiences.

Musicals are pretty in right now. Look at "High School Musical" and "Glee" for two examples of mainstream musicals written especially for the big and small screen. I wouldn't knock down the independent scene, either. It's a great place for exposure and could land you a mainstream deal down the road.

On the business side, you might be better off writing a short musical and producing it for the web. I know everyone is doing that right now so it's a pretty saturated market, but if you don't have any connections that might be the best way to get exposure. You also might want to try to get in touch with local theater groups to see if they want to make a stage production.

As for technical side, try looking up some old hollywood musical scripts, as well as looking at the scripts for movies like Hairspray and Sweeney Todd. Typically, lyrics are written in blocks. I wrote a short musical that a friend ended up producing (no way I was going to invest that much money into it!) in which I italicized the lyrics as well, just to make it clear when lines were sung or spoken.

musicals

can't wait to die

Know what you write...

What happened?

can't wait to die

In the zone...

Lost in School Work

What happened?

In the zone...

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Lost in School Work

Lost in School Work

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Out of the cradle endlessly rocking

New kid, be gentle!

Lost in School Work

New kid, be gentle!

Your thoughts are not real...

can't wait to die

Lost in School Work

Your thoughts are not real...

can't wait to die