SFF Plots and Villains, your thoughts?

[Grand_Maester]

In considering my own fantasy plot and villain, I thought to myself "How cliche. He wants to rule the world and/or live forever. Where haven't I seen this." And it occurred to me that there aren't too many villain goals in SFF.
Then I thought, why not? Why aren't there any SFF stories about kids in a middle school equivalent trying to wade through the sea of cliques and bullies, but with flying cars, superheros, wizards, dragons, and the like? Where are plots that don't involve the impending doom of the universe?

What are your thoughts? Has this been done before, and just didn't catch on? Has it been done to death, and I just need to visit a bookstore? Or do we demand a large-scale catastrophic plot in our SFF?

[sunandshadow]

Erm, do you read YA/juvie SFF and SFF romance? There are plenty which do not involve a villain who wants to take over the world or live forever. A villain who wants to take over just the school is common, or a villain who wants to obtain some particular object, position, or even a particular person's affections. Sometimes there's a historical-style plot to trick someone out of their inheritance or force someone into a marriage for political advantage. Sometimes there's a mystery which may not even involve a villain. Sometimes it's a survival/marooning story. Or the antagonist is some sort of teacher/tester who just won't let the mc progress toward their ambitions until they get better skills or learn important lessons.

[Giovanni_Spada]

I certainly prefer smaller scale villainy in my fantasy.

I'd much rather read about protecting a village or a single person from a villain than an entire country or, worse, a whole planet.

I think that's part of the reason that I prefer short stories to novels. The length restrictions involved in short fiction make it difficult to have globe-spanning plots so more local action is usually the result.

[Grand_Maester]

Wow, there's all that stuff in SFF?
Hmm... I guess I've been reading all the wrong books.

Also, your impractical fantasy animal looks very cool, if rather impractical.

And Giovanni, that's what I was thinking. "Wouldn't it be nice if this was just smaller?" and so I wondered if there was such a thing in SFF.

[geardrops]

I'm with sunandshadow. Hit up the YA section. Ask a librarian/Borders employee for assistance if needs be.

[Mr Flibble]

Why aren't there any SFF stories about kids in a middle school equivalent trying to wade through the sea of cliques and bullies, but with flying cars, superheros, wizards, dragons, and the like?

Harry Potter?

Okay Voldemort want stuff, but the bulk was exactly what you describe.

[Etola]

It's all a matter of scale, I think. The nature of fantasy and sci-fi, with all of its worldbuilding, lends itself well to more epic-scale stories that pull the camera back enough to see the whole world in all its intricacies, and which necessarily need high stakes in order to motivate the heroes and to justify such a grand perspective.

But a lot of it depends on where you look. Charles DeLint has a lot of more personally-oriented stories, and it's rare to find massive epic multi-tome series in the YA section (though such things are becoming more common in the wake of Harry Potter).

[SPMiller]

My villain's goal in my most recent fantasy story is to keep a floating city afloat. From any reasonable perspective, that's a heroic goal, so why isn't the villain the hero? Because I chose a different character with different goals (also heroic) as the POV. Really, they're better referred to as protag and antag.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Well, a villain who wants to take over and do nasty things to a large country or the whole world is pretty much a prerequisite in epic fantasy. It's where the 'epic' part comes from. However, there are lots of sub-genres in fantasy other than epic, so if you want to see some smaller-scale plots why not look for books in sub-genres like urban fantasy, YA fantasy, 'low' fantasy, and fantasy romance?

[Michael_T]

How about a "villain" who is ruthless in trying to obtain some sort of magic thing that will heal his dying sister but also kill thousands of people...

It's fine IMO to have a villain with a noble goal, just questionable morals. Makes things more interesting.

[Canotila]

The Sea of Trolls was about a kid and his sister who got kidnapped to be sold as slaves by viking berserkers. The whole plot is him trying to get his sister home alive, amid trolls, dragons, giant killer hounds, etc.

[TheRob1]

I'm writing Sci-fi and currently I have 2 sets of "Villains" the first is the Alien empire that conquered humanity: they're locked into a struggle w/ the human resistance which is slowly being revealed through the course of the series. The second is actually an Outlaw Motorcycle Gang called the "Cutthroats". One of the Main Characters crossed them in the first book and they've been out for retribution ever since. So far in 2 manuscripts main crew has fought 2 different charters of the MC.

Of the 2 my favorite is the MC.

[MattW]

My current villain is the priest of a harsh, vengeful, but not entirely evil, goddess. Her goal is to preemptively strike at a cult that she knows could convert/absorb/destroy all of her goddess' followers.

Why she does it makes her believable as a character. How she does it is what makes her the "villain," as do her plans to forcefully expand and enslave other peoples (and their gods).

[Canotila]

My antagonist is a crabby old wizard who poisoned his son-in-law after his daughter hanged herself. Then he went on to murder his son-in-law's mistresses and illegitimate children. Now he's trying to raise his grandson (and only living relative).

My MC is one of the illegitimate children who got away.

[Ardent Kat]

Originally Posted by Etola

It's all a matter of scale, I think. The nature of fantasy and sci-fi, with all of its worldbuilding, lends itself well to more epic-scale stories that pull the camera back enough to see the whole world in all its intricacies, and which necessarily need high stakes in order to motivate the heroes and to justify such a grand perspective.

I've noticed a lot of books on getting published that really push the angle that every story needs to have extremely high earth-shattering stakes!! or it won't turn an agent/publisher's head. Especially books about editing and rewriting push the angle that small stories don't sell. You gotta blow it up and make it huge.

Sounds pretty forced if you ask me. Like turning novels into Hollywood blockbusters with car explosions every 20 minutes. *sigh* I appreciate good pacing and interesting story, but I don't think that needs to be big so much as engaging. But all the best-selling books on revision and editing tell me otherwise, though.

[Ruv Draba]

If we consider a dramatic crucible as being the place or relationships in which the major external conflict takes place, the external stakes need to be as big as the crucible can support.

So in Hemingway's The Old Man and the Sea, at stake is the life of the marlin, the Old Man's income, food for his loved ones, his sense of purpose and self-worth; eventually it becomes his own survival. Those are life-or-death stakes for the participants, and as big as you could fit in a crucible built around an old fisherman.

In Jane Austen's Emma, the stakes are the happiness of Emma's friends, her own reputation, her future happiness and feel for superior cleverness -- stakes that are as big as you could fit in a Victorian comedy of middle-class manners.

A SFF story doesn't have to be save-the-world either. In Sword-and-Sorcery tales like the Conan stories, Conan usually wants something specific; his enemies just want to kill him for trying to take it. If you wrap a SFF story around a thriller premise you'll often get save-the-world. But you can wrap SFF around a romance or mystery premise or a human drama and get something else entirely.