Interior monologue for disgusting language (contains offensive language)

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

I have a few scenes in my 3rd person limited novel where I'm narrating for a repulsive, racist, woman beating misogynist. Now, I like to go deep inside the heads of my POV characters (and this character is no different), but if I use deep interior monologue (which I don't always use italics for), would this put people/publishers off my work and consider me to be such a monster too?

For example, could I get away with something like the following:

"He was awakened by a loud, shuddering bang in the next room. Pangs of uncontrollable rage filtered through his blood and flushed his face. It was that fat f****** wh*** again, he was sure of it. It was about time someone smashed her fu***** face in. That fu***** sl**. He had had enough. He clinched his fist and marched out the bedroom.

Do you know if you can do things like this? I mean, interior monologue can be mistaken for peoples natural thoughts can't it? Is it ok for the narrator to just turn into a repulsive character no matter how horrible that character is? That's what deep POV 3rd person limited is all about isn't it?

Or do you have to be clear in getting across that it's the character who is thinking these terrible things? What if you needed the character to use every racist insult under the sun for example?

scarletpeaches · Jan 30, 2010

First up, this:

kal-el said:
I have a few scenes in my 3rd person limited novel where I'm narrating for a repulsive, racist, woman beating misogynist.

...makes your opinion of the character clear, which in turn makes me wonder if you're beating the reader over the head with the this character is teh ebils!!!!111!!!one!!!!eleventy stick.

kal-el said:
Now, I like to go deep inside the heads of my POV characters (and this character is no different), but if I use deep interior monologue (which I don't always use italics for), would this put people/publishers off my work and consider me to be such a monster too?

Not if they have any sense. We're writers. If someone judges me according to what my characters do, then fuck 'em. They're not the sort of readers I want anyway.

I AM NOT MY CHARACTERS AND NEITHER ARE YOU.

kal-el said:
For example, could I get away with something like the following:

"He was awakened by a loud, shuddering bang in the next room. Pangs of uncontrollable rage filtered through his blood and flushed his face. It was that fat f****** wh*** again, he was sure of it. It was about time someone smashed her fu***** face in. That fu***** sl**. He had had enough. He clinched his fist and marched out the bedroom.

You could get away with it...but it would make readers like me throw the book against the wall then get off the settee to retrieve it just so I could wallbang it again.

kal-el said:
Do you know if you can do things like this? I mean, interior monologue can be mistaken for peoples natural thoughts can't it?

Not sure what you mean by this. Interior monologues are the narrators' thoughts.

kal-el said:
Is it ok for the narrator to just turn into a repulsive character no matter how horrible that character is? That's what deep POV 3rd person limited is all about isn't it?

Plenty of books feature morally repugnant characters. The thing you have to remember is, standards of what is and is not 'morally repugnant' vary from person to person.

kal-el said:
Or do you have to be clear in getting across that it's the character who is thinking these terrible things? What if you needed the character to use every racist insult under the sun for example?

If that's what the character would say, that's what you write.

jl1966ca · Jan 30, 2010

kal-el said:
I have a few scenes in my 3rd person limited novel where I'm narrating for a repulsive, racist, woman beating misogynist. Now, I like to go deep inside the heads of my POV characters (and this character is no different), but if I use deep interior monologue (which I don't always use italics for), would this put people/publishers off my work and consider me to be such a monster too?

For example, could I get away with something like the following:

"He was awakened by a loud, shuddering bang in the next room. Pangs of uncontrollable rage filtered through his blood and flushed his face. It was that fat f****** wh*** again, he was sure of it. It was about time someone smashed her fu***** face in. That fu***** sl**. He had had enough. He clinched his fist and marched out the bedroom.

Do you know if you can do things like this? I mean, interior monologue can be mistaken for peoples natural thoughts can't it? Is it ok for the narrator to just turn into a repulsive character no matter how horrible that character is? That's what deep POV 3rd person limited is all about isn't it?

Or do you have to be clear in getting across that it's the character who is thinking these terrible things? What if you needed the character to use every racist insult under the sun for example?

I don't see any problem with this at all. It's done all the time. It is obvious that it is the character that is thinking or doing these terrible things and not you personally. As long as you are not exulting the character as the hero, it's fine. If there weren't horrid characters in a story, there probably wouldn't be much of a story.

Parametric · Jan 30, 2010

Looks like close/deep third person to me. I'd be fine with it.

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

Oh no, how silly of me. I thought interior monologue was the characters thoughts being described by the author, and that the author didn't always have to use italics to do this.

So basically, in 3rd person limited, it's common for an author to comment as if he/she shared the same views of the horrible character then? What you're telling me is, I can just turn into these horrible characters whilst I'm in their heads and use all sorts of horrible, sexist, racist language as if I actually think that way?

Sorry for my ignorance, this is just something that's obviously very important as I wouldn't want a publisher to pick up the phone and send the police round to my house to arrest me, especially for describing things I would never say or do!

My novel is not exactly packed with scenes where horrible characters are the POV characters, but I do have them in my stories and I just want to make my story as powerful as possible. Naturally.

jl1966ca · Jan 30, 2010

I think you're safe from the law. Even if you are not, I'll post bail.

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

Parametric said:
Looks like close/deep third person to me. I'd be fine with it.

That's exactly what it's supposed to be, but I wouldn't want a publisher to throw my work in the bin, thinking I'm some sort of nutter.

I also have a scene where the character calls a black guy the "N" word amongst other things, but to make it really compelling, I feel I have to get inside his head and think these terrible things too. I'm just a bit frightened and worried I suppose.

The thing is, I really believe I have a magnificent story here, but it needs to be highly offensive at times to make it so powerful. Although I'm confident of how good I can make this book, I'm a bit apprehensive about getting into trouble or being labelled a monster that no publisher would ever even touch with a barge poll.

megan_d · Jan 30, 2010

I would pay attention to SP's comments though. You don't need to beat the reader over the head with the fact that your character is a Really Bad Guy, often a subtle approach is much more effective.

scarletpeaches · Jan 30, 2010

If the story needs to be offensive, then make it offensive. Agents (or publishers) can tell the difference between authors, narrators and POV characters.

I mean, look at how many objectionable characters there are in books which sell these days. Does anyone believe Dean Koontz is a serial killer or Ian Rankin a murderer?

I've written about things I'd never do. And I've written about things I love to do.

The reader will never know the difference because I write from my characters' points of view, not my own. You know what they think of particular activities, not what I think of them.

megan_d · Jan 30, 2010

kal-el said:
but it needs to be highly offensive at times to make it so powerful.

It seems to me that you're confusing 'shock factor' with powerful writing here. Look at Stephen King's latest 'Under the Dome.' The bad guy of that tome, Jim Rennie, is a born again Christian who never swears. He uses terms like 'clustermug' and 'rhymes with witch.' And yet I would be hard pressed to thing of a more powerful and effective bad guy. Some of the things he did or thought made me physically recoil with horror, and King achieved this without having to resort o cheap tactics like shocking language.

Obviously I'm not saying your character can't swear, just that you should be wary of using offensive terms as a lazy shortcut for character development.

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

megan_d said:
I would pay attention to SP's comments though. You don't need to beat the reader over the head with the fact that your character is a Really Bad Guy, often a subtle approach is much more effective.

Oh, of course. I completely understand this and I think I have got the beats just right in the novel. The example I provided above is not from my book, it was just a brutal example that I thought would help people understand what I was getting at.

There are moments in my book where it is just as vulgar, but like I said, I think I have nailed it (sorry, don't mean to sound too confident). I just haven't seen any writings where the author provides interior monologue in such a ferocious way, as if they themselves agree with the appalling behaviour/comments/thoughts of the character.

megan_d · Jan 30, 2010

Then you must not be very widely read. And confidence is certainly not a bad thing, but too much confidence definitely is. Maybe you should consider posting an actual excerpt from your story in the Share Your Work forum?

edit: er, I didn't mean that first comment to come across so bitchy. I just mean that it's not uncommon for authors to get inside the heads of their unsavory characters, and it might help you to seek some novels that use the technique out.

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

scarletpeaches said:
If the story needs to be offensive, then make it offensive. Agents (or publishers) can tell the difference between authors, narrators and POV characters.

I mean, look at how many objectionable characters there are in books which sell these days. Does anyone believe Dean Koontz is a serial killer or Ian Rankin a murderer?

I've written about things I'd never do. And I've written about things I love to do.

The reader will never know the difference because I write from my characters' points of view, not my own. You know what they think of particular activities, not what I think of them.

Sorry, this is where I'm confused. When you say "I write from my charaters' point of view, not my own", what are you doing when you provide interior monologue then? Although you said earlier that interior monologue is the author's thoughts, does that still mean that the author's thoughts are actually the character's thoughts?

Do you see what I mean, oh, you have confused me now....

scarletpeaches · Jan 30, 2010

What I mean is, when I write a book, whether first or third person, I'm writing about my characters. Not me. Earlier I said interior monologues are the narrators' thoughts. Not the author - the narrator, which are two different things.

Any opinions my characters express are their own. Now, I may share them. I may not. But as the author, I have no business appearing in the story. If I want to express my own opinions, I'll write a political treatise, not a novel.

I read a review on Amazon once in which a reviewer said "a writer rarely writes about something he or she would not condone" which is a load of nonsense, frankly. Clearly this reviewer cannot separate fiction from real life. Nor can they separate the author from their characters.

And that's the point I'm making. Learn to think of your characters are separate people, apart from you. Any reader worth his salt will, too. That's why we pick up a novel. If we wanted to know what a real person though, we'd buy their biography.

megan_d · Jan 30, 2010

The authors actual real thoughts do not appear in the novel. It is always assumed that whatever thought is on the page is the opinion of the current POV character. When you watch a movie do you assume that the voiceover thoughts of a character are the director's thoughts?

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

scarletpeaches said:
What I mean is, when I write a book, whether first or third person, I'm writing about my characters. Not me. Earlier I said interior monologues are the narrators' thoughts. Not the author - the narrator, which are two different things.

Any opinions my characters express are their own. Now, I may share them. I may not. But as the author, I have no business appearing in the story. If I want to express my own opinions, I'll write a political treatise, not a novel.

I read a review on Amazon once in which a reviewer said "a writer rarely writes about something he or she would not condone" which is a load of nonsense, frankly. Clearly this reviewer cannot separate fiction from real life. Nor can they separate the author from their characters.

And that's the point I'm making. Learn to think of your characters are separate people, apart from you. Any reader worth his salt will, too. That's why we pick up a novel. If we wanted to know what a real person though, we'd buy their biography.

Oh, I see!!!! Thanks Scarlet, you have been a really big help and I am very grateful to you. I'm grateful to everyone here, thank you all so much.

scarletpeaches · Jan 30, 2010

Crikey, I appear to have said a few sensible things today. I do apologise. On the morrow I shall be back to my normal - well, abnormal - self.

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

megan_d said:
The authors actual real thoughts do not appear in the novel. It is always assumed that whatever thought is on the page is the opinion of the current POV character. When you watch a movie do you assume that the voiceover thoughts of a character are the director's thoughts?

This is great! Thanks. I understand wholeheartedly now. You really have been a big help.

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

scarletpeaches said:
What I mean is, when I write a book, whether first or third person, I'm writing about my characters. Not me. Earlier I said interior monologues are the narrators' thoughts. Not the author - the narrator, which are two different things.

Any opinions my characters express are their own. Now, I may share them. I may not. But as the author, I have no business appearing in the story. If I want to express my own opinions, I'll write a political treatise, not a novel.

I read a review on Amazon once in which a reviewer said "a writer rarely writes about something he or she would not condone" which is a load of nonsense, frankly. Clearly this reviewer cannot separate fiction from real life. Nor can they separate the author from their characters.

And that's the point I'm making. Learn to think of your characters are separate people, apart from you. Any reader worth his salt will, too. That's why we pick up a novel. If we wanted to know what a real person though, we'd buy their biography.

Oh no! Another question just exploded in my chubby little tummy!

Throughout my book, even though it's 3rd person limited, I use my own voice in all scenes. For example, the horrible character I'm talking about isn't intelligent enough to construct good sentences and he could never describe things the way I do (not that I'm saying I'm Shakespeare or anything).

But of course, from time to time, I jump into his head and become the vulgar, racist, woman-hating bigot. I can still do that can't I? Or does that mean I'm breaking the POV rules? There are so many nice things that happen through this characters' eyes too, but I couldn't possibly describe them with his vocabulary.

Does that give me a problem Scarlett?

scarletpeaches · Jan 30, 2010

I'm no expert, but I'd say not. As long as when you're directly conveying his thoughts you use his vocabulary, but I'll leave others to pull such a question apart as it's nearly 4am here and I should be getting my beauty sleep!

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

scarletpeaches said:
I'm no expert, but I'd say not. As long as when you're directly conveying his thoughts you use his vocabulary, but I'll leave others to pull such a question apart as it's nearly 4am here and I should be getting my beauty sleep!

God, you just reminded me that my clock says that too. Chat soon. I'm going to bed too!

Stunted · Jan 30, 2010

I sympathize with your situation. I'm in a similar (but less extreme) predicament myself.

If this character were your MC, and none of the other characters disapproved of his behavior, and his acting this way lead him to defeat his antagonist and live happily ever after, then I would be left raising some eyebrows by the end of the book.

An example of this that you hear about all the time is (of course) Twilight. The MC is objectively in an abusive relationship, which is, of course, fine content for a book, but because she lives happily ever after, it's sort of...ick.

But because this character isn't an MC, I think you're fine.

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

Stunted said:
I sympathize with your situation. I'm in a similar (but less extreme) predicament myself.

If this character were your MC, and none of the other characters disapproved of his behavior, and his acting this way lead him to defeat his antagonist and live happily ever after, then I would be left raising some eyebrows by the end of the book.

An example of this that you hear about all the time is (of course) Twilight. The MC is objectively in an abusive relationship, which is, of course, fine content for a book, but because she lives happily ever after, it's sort of...ick.

But because this character isn't an MC, I think you're fine.

What about the book I'm planning to write about an armed robber? The armed robber is my protagonist and he is extremely vulgar when he's telling people to get on the floor holding a shotgun. I think I'm gonna have him beat his wife too.

So what does one do if they want to write a novel where the horrible charater is the protagonist then? A racist, sexist pig. A terrorist perhaps, or a murderer who kills children? What does one do then? (I'm not planning to write a novel like this, but say I was). Would that be illegal or unacceptable to a publisher?

theantisplice · Jan 30, 2010

kal-el said:
Oh no! Another question just exploded in my chubby little tummy!

I laughed

Throughout my book, even though it's 3rd person limited, I use my own voice in all scenes. For example, the horrible character I'm talking about isn't intelligent enough to construct good sentences and he could never describe things the way I do (not that I'm saying I'm Shakespeare or anything).

His interior monologue should sound like him, not you. If he wouldn't know the word "lackadaisical" (picking one of my favorite big words at random), he shouldn't use it, even if you the author know it.

But of course, from time to time, I jump into his head and become the vulgar, racist, woman-hating bigot. I can still do that can't I? Or does that mean I'm breaking the POV rules? There are so many nice things that happen through this characters' eyes too, but I couldn't possibly describe them with his vocabulary.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. If by this you mean you're doing your utmost to understand your character, I think that's a good thing. Maybe it's because it's late here and I'm tired, but I don't understand the question. Sorry :/

Maxinquaye · Jan 30, 2010

Basically you're asking this: Should I be true to my character, or should I be "politically correct" and subvert the truthfulness of my novel out of marketing considerations.

I know what my answer to that question is.

Interior monologue for disgusting language (contains offensive language)

kal-el

scarletpeaches

jl1966ca

Parametric

kal-el

jl1966ca

kal-el

megan_d

Falling in the milk

scarletpeaches

megan_d

Falling in the milk

kal-el

megan_d

Falling in the milk

kal-el

scarletpeaches

megan_d

Falling in the milk

kal-el

scarletpeaches

kal-el

kal-el

scarletpeaches

kal-el

Stunted

Ich heiße Superphantastisch!

kal-el

theantisplice

Punctual

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer