Question about education

[profen4]

Originally Posted by amyashley

quicklime, I don't think education is bad. I simply feel that there is such a wealth of resources available for writing and writers: free online, library references, books to buy, writers conferences, and more. Going to school ONLY to become a writer seems to me an awful lot of money spent when one could feasibly do it for less.

Education is a good thing. There is much to be learned in college. They will not, however, focus only on how to become the greatest writer in the world.

I don't think one way or the other is better, but I would not advise anyone to pursue the degree if they were already struggling unless they had plans to use that degree for other things too.

Don't think it's possible to go to school ONLY to be a writer. You can't just take writing classes and expect to get a degree (except maybe advanced degrees).

FWIW, I think formal education is the easy way to get the knowledge you need to excel at something, and that goes for any industry. Just look at nurses - back in the day it used to be mostly on the job training, now new nurses are coming out of school (after 4 years) with more knowledge than the people who have been doing it for decades.

[quicklime]

Originally Posted by IdiotsRUs

To be fair, at university, mostly the experience you'll be getting is of universities. Which is (or can be) quite narrow

you get a narrow slice of what the teacher wants to teach, whichj is correct or not. But there are very few jobs where you may cover psych, plant biology, eastern philosophy, and history of the Americas between Sept. and Dec.

And for a hayseed like me, even fewer where I will do it sitting beside Californians, Thai, Chinese, etc.......

Amy, there are a lot of resources out there. Which is why a biologist (me) can make a stab at writing...at least part of why. And I agree 100%; I would have never gone as an English major and banked on writing, knowing I'd stab a kid if I had to actually teach English.

On the other hand, college offers a lot of experiences and hopefully does train your mental agility, etc. in a way where I still say you may not need it, but I doubt there's many, if any, places you'd better-invest your time and money if you wanted to write. There's just a hell of a lot of learning and experience crammed into those 4 years, and not many other places to match that level of either.

[Mr Flibble]

Ahh, but knowledge of things isn't (always) the same as experience.

Probably it depends what sort of books you want to end up writing. *shrug*

[amyashley]

"Going to school with one's only purpose being becoming a writer."


Is that better phrased?


Perhaps I should employ some of our government's tax dollars and get a better education to improve my sentence structure. I am quite sure that's the gist of the problem.

I'd prefer, however, to use my valuable time and money to write my novels, produce a paltry income, and feed my children.

[quicklime]

Originally Posted by jvc

Instead of three years at University, three years tracking Jaguars through the Amazon forests would be better. As experience goes

.

I agree about hard work...as for the jaguars...will it, if you're writing about being a bored cali skateboarder? Probably not. Tracking jaguars would leave you incredibly qualified to write on tracking jaguars, but it would leave you with a pretty myopic experience.....tracking, jungle flora and fauna, etc. Beyond that, you learning much about the stock exchange? Fenton reactions? Biochemistry? Colonization of the Americas?


this is sort of like the old argument about MD vs PhD, which was MDs know a little about everything, PhDs know everything, about a little. Your jaguars would be PhD, undergrad would be MD--you may not learn vast amounts about anything, but you get a hell of a smattering.

[jvc]

This is gonna turn out to be all about semantics, isn't it

[Mr Flibble]

Originally Posted by quicklime

I agree about hard work...as for the jaguars...will it, if you're writing about being a bored cali skateboarder?

Neither would a degree from Oxford

This is gonna turn out to be all about semantics, isn't it

Trick question, right?

ETA: In the three years when I would maybe have gone to uni I: learnt how to run accounts, especially how to be *cough* creative with them, lived in a different country, learnt to bodge my way through another language, studied ospreys, got married and divorced, taught people to ride, tried drowning and decided I didn't like it etc etc.

Three years is three years. Unless you live in a vacuum, you will experience something. I'm not knocking degrees, if you want one. But there are other ways to learn. It depends on what you want to learn. My brother often hires uni grads. Then he says he has to teach them what they really need to know.

[amyashley]

Quicklime, I think college provides a well rounded view. It depends on what stage of life you attend it too. I went late and it wasn't as eye-opening. I went for an art studio degree, which I had studied on my own for the previous 20 years, and it was a waste of money (the art portion). I went to a posh private highschool, and felt much of the first two years were a complete rip off. So maybe I am just bitter. I still had a great deal of training at each career, none of which were ever related to school. I always felt I had more experience there.

I think traveling afforded much experience, and interacting with people. But education has a value one can't deny, bitter or not.

IdiotsRus, see what I said above, I think in non-fiction a degree can really help.

[Mr Flibble]

Originally Posted by amyashley

IdiotsRus, see what I said above, I think in non-fiction a degree can really help.

Absolutely. Like I said, it probably depends what you want to write.

[amyashley]

Originally Posted by IdiotsRUs

Absolutely. Like I said, it probably depends what you want to write.

Erotica: College can help with that. Not that erotica has improper grammar, lack of plot (IT DOES NOT!!), but one can't beat college for experience in that arena.

[Tifferbugz]

I just wanted to add having a college degree gives you a good backup plan. Even if writing is your only dream, the harsh truth is that not everyone will make it to the level of success necessary to pay all the bills with writing. I don't think a person should plan to fail at what they want to do, but I think in combination with the positives listed by others in this thread, college is almost always a good choice. At the very least it can give you a much better income while you work to make it as a writer.

[jaksen]

Yikes, how many of us have Bio degrees here?

[Winnowill]

Thank you all for the great replies!! I love this forum.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Well, my opinion is not objective, since I have no formal higher education myself. Of course I don't think it's necessary, and don't even believe it would be helpful. I didn't go to college because I HATE organized education of any kind and most certainly wasn't going to pay for the 'privilege'. Instead I spent my time practicing writing and learning the things I wanted to learn, though I obviously won't have proof that this was the right thing to do until I get published.

I think any correlation between being a successful writer and having a college degree is simply because most writers are of above average intelligence, and most people of above average intelligence go to college, either because they enjoy learning and want to go or because of the social pressure to not 'waste their potential'. (Hint: the first is a good reason to go and the second definitely isn't)

Of course college can be an enriching experience, but you'll get out of it what you put into it, and if you don't want to be there it'll be a very expensive waste of time (I know some people who graduated with what amounted to a degree in drinking). You can get just as much information from an internet connection and a library card, and for a whole lot less money.

When people come on AW and ask 'what does it take to become a good writer?' (and we get that question a lot) we don't tell them 'go to college and get a creative writing degree'. We tell them 'read a lot and practice, practice, practice'.

[Mr Flibble]

Originally Posted by jaksen

Yikes, how many of us have Bio degrees here?

I missed the final 'here's your letters after your name' because I was struck down with ME right near the end of the last course and had to give up. (Note: I was a mature student). I have about 97% of a degree lol.

It did not help one whit with my writing fiction, and probably never will. Unless I write a story about brown adipose tissue or something.

Erotica: College can help with that. Not that erotica has improper grammar, lack of plot (IT DOES NOT!!), but one can't beat college for experience in that arena.

You don't need college for that. Believe me.

[whimsical rabbit]

Originally Posted by IdiotsRUs

It did not help one whit with my writing fiction, and probably never will. Unless I write a story about brown adipose tissue or something.

[bethany]

Agreeing with people here who say that college can provide you with the skills to get a job that supports you. It can also be a vicious cycle because sometimes you have to get that job to pay for student loans and stuff.

I wouldn't change anything about my college experience even though it was at a state university and I did end up teaching high school, which would be a nightmare for some people, but I LOVE it.

I don't think my college experience particularly got me ready to be a writer, but it did introduce me to books and philosophies that I would not have been exposed to otherwise. And then, since I write YA, teaching high school is pretty okay!

[maestrowork]

Writers should always educate themselves, learn new things, go outside their comfort zones, etc.

But is a college or post-graduate degree necessary? Not at all.


That said, college was great. I wouldn't give my experiences up for anything. Any experiences would be good for your writing, whether you're a high-school dropout drug addict or have multiple doctorate degrees, as long as you get something out of your experiences and use them to help with your writing, it's all good.

[Medievalist]

No, you don't have to have a degree.

Heck, my very favorite well-respected SF editor dropped out of high school.

But college does expose you to new ideas, and new people. It offers a lot of opportunity that's ready and waiting for learning, experiences, people, . . .

And it often makes it easier to earn a living while you write.

But it's not necessary at all.

What is necessary is living, and writing, and revising, and reading, and more reading, and more writing and revising . . . repeat forever.

[maestrowork]

As a friend, who works in Hollywood, and I talked just a few days ago: Is it necessary to go to film school? His answer (he did go to film school): Absolutely not.

Many filmmakers never even went to college. Sure, there are famous ones like Ang Lee or Stephen Spielberg, etc. who did, and film schools do teach you many things. But, according to him, what film schools REALLY are good for is networking. You get to study from established filmmakers. You get to socialize with fellow students who may one day be established filmmakers. In fact, many become "a team." My friend knew his business partner from film school, and they've been working together since. Film schools open doors for him as far as knowing people, getting in the right circle, working with working filmmakers, etc. are concerned.

[dangerousbill]

Anthony Trollope's life is an example of someone who made it with limited education and a dull daytime existence as a civil servant. On the other hand, he had other literary influences available:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Trollope

[Ken]

... can only speak for myself.

I went to college and have found it quite helpful for my writing. It expanded my horizons and gave me a wider outlook. Even courses totally unrelated to writing like calculus were a help odd as that may seem. Interacting with students with a multitude of perspectives was a boon too.

College isn't necessary for success. Many have succeeded, greatly, without it. For me personally I'm just glad I went and only regret I didn't work harder and get more involved.

[kullervo]

You need to be intelligent, experienced, talented, dedicated, and well-read. Of these, well-read is the rarest, dedicated is the most common, intelligent is the most important, talented is the least important, and experienced is the most interesting.

How you get there is up to you.

[amyashley]

dangerousbill, thanks for that link. Incredibly enlightening!

[quicklime]

wow....miss a little, miss a lot.

Bottom line is, ALL THINGS EQUAL, I think there's damn few places you will get as much education and experience in four years as in college. Granted there are plenty of college-educated morons and very bright people who have avoided it, but to compare a slack-jawed frat-boy idiot to someone like Gates (IIRC he never finished) is not an equal comparison.


all things again EQUAL, I think almost anyone would stand to benefit. But I also think plenty do quite well without. That hardly proves they wouldn't have benefited though