"Romance is not real writing"

[Stacia Kane]

Originally Posted by yttar

I've kind of had the opposite experience. I was told that I should write "formulaic" fiction (aka romances) so I could produce a bazillion in a year by only needing to change the characters' names, hair color, eye color, etc. Because that's the only difference in romance, right?

But then I was also told by a fellow classmate during my last year of college that I shouldn't go to grad school if I write genre fiction because the professors only like literary fiction. I thought about going to grad school just to prove him wrong, but went to Asia to teach ESL instead. Now I just don't know if grad school will benefit my writing goals or not (which is to write the best book I can, finish editing one of the novels I have written, and hopefully get published).

I also don't write genre romance, though most of my novels have an HEA. I read a lot of romances, but they're not something I could write. And I've tried, but it's really hard for me. I'm just most comfortable writing YA, which tends to have a lot of romance in it anyway.

Yttar

Everyone else has already covered the utter ridiculousness of the "write formulaic" thing, but I wanted to add that Seton Hill University has a "Writing Popular Fiction" MFA program; I know you're beyond the MFA, but it's worth looking into and seeing if they have something for grad students.

http://www.setonhill.edu/academics/f...curriculum.cfm

I think there may be a couple of other schools that do degrees along those lines, too. Personally, I don't think a degree or any college at all is remotely necessary to be a writer; I don't have one. I got my GED and never went to college (I was homeless for a while after my dad kicked me out because his girlfriend didn't want me around, which is why I didn't graduate, and of course I had no money for college; the scholarship for which I qualified wasn't enough. Sorry I know that's a lot of info but I just wanted to make the point that you can do it even if you start with almost nothing).

I know a few people who think college is necessary, because of the life experience it gives etc. etc. But again, I got plenty of life experience without it.

If you want to be a writer and finish a novel, you need to sit down and do it. School isn't going to help you with that. You have to do it yourself.

The good news is writing is a lot cheaper than paying for several more years of college!

Good luck whatever you decide.

[MeredithD]

Originally Posted by job

Always an option . . . though I'm not going to go to the stake defending the notion that an MA in Chinese History is going to pull in the $$

Originally Posted by Stacia Kane

If you want to be a writer and finish a novel, you need to sit down and do it. School isn't going to help you with that. You have to do it yourself.

Just to add an irrelevant little tangent to this discussion, the boyfriend tonight took it upon himself to explain my novels to me: the first was my postcolonialism novel, the second my "politics of the past" novel, the third my "hegemony" novel, the fourth my "Ego/Id" novel, and the current WIP, my "Marxist" novel.

(Can you imagine the query letter? Dear Madam, I write to you in regard to my recently completed 94,000 word historical romance, which explores the ever-pressing issue of Marxist social theory as embodied through a rake's seduction of an East End guttersnipe...)

Anyway, yeah. As spake the tremendous writers above, advanced degrees will not necessarily aid your writing career.

Edited to add: I can't count how many times I've been asked if I'll ever write a real novel. I always find the question amazing and amusing and a bit puzzling. I mean, if these are fake novels, then why the hell do they take so much work?

[MissMacchiato]

Lol Meredith! I wonder what mine would be? I'm curious now!

[Mr Flibble]

Originally Posted by Clovia

Ooooooh, I have so many things to say right here, but my previous generation might find me!

Er...and I would never, because...that would be wrong?

Oops! To be fair it was 3am....

[jana13k]

I always recommend that if people have the means, they major in something that pays well and that is easy for them. That way you can spend all your free time pursuing your writing career without worrying about paying the rent and how to afford a new laptop or a writer's conference. It takes most people years of writing to sell and then years of selling before they make a livable wage. "Livable" also varies greatly based on where you live and your existing financial responsibilities. My degree is in accounting, which has been fabulous for all the business side of writing.

As for the people who think selling a romance novel is formulaic and easy, I always invite them to try. In fact, I've offered some fabulous prizes if people running their mouth would even complete a novel. So far I have paid out $0. I had one write a chapter and ask me to review. I think I literally left 3 words in the whole thing alone. The rest was dripping red. They decided it wasn't near as easy as it looked, but then things never are.

When I raced motocross, people would say "well, all you do is sit there and twist the throttle." Whatever.

The best thing you can do for yourself in all areas of your life is to stop caring what other people think. You get one shot at life. Make it about what YOU care about and not other people.

[job]

Originally Posted by MeredithD

. . . the boyfriend tonight took it upon himself to explain my novels to me:

. . . and he lives?

In truth, it sounds fascinating and delightful. I will gently scoop my brains back under the delicate cup of my cranium and reconsider the books in light of new insights.

Originally Posted by MeredithD

.(Can you imagine the query letter? Dear Madam, I write to you in regard to my recently completed 94,000 word historical romance, which explores the ever-pressing issue of Marxist social theory as embodied through a rake's seduction of an East End guttersnipe...)

There is really not enough Marxist guttersnipe in the genre . . .

[yttar]

Originally Posted by job

Oh. If you have a chance to go to grad school -- if you have the time and the money -- I'd say to do it.

But I'd say to go in some field that is not related to writing.
Art, anthropology, Chinese history, sociology, comparative religion . . . everything from Plains Indian folk tales to wine tasting.

If you're in this for the long haul, you need something you love that fills the creative well. That sparks new ideas.
That's what grad school can give you.

My BS is in biology/zoology 'cause that's what I love. Plus I figured knowing about animal physiology would help me write more realistic shapeshifters. And currently, my day job is stay-at-home mom, with a 5-hour-a-week cleaning job on the side.

I just wanted to add that my favorite writing teacher in college said pretty much the same thing. That writers have been writing long before there was ever such a thing as a major in English or an MFA in English, and that writers will continue to write long after there is no such thing as a degree in English. He also encouraged everything to major in something that wasn't English.

Also, you and Stacia are so encouraging, it makes me want to go work on my novel.

Yttar

[Ken]

... pretty much of the sole draw of getting an MFA in English/Creative Writing for me would be the opportunity to teach in a college for a delightfully limited number of hours per week. And since those opportunites are as rare as dodo birds I probably won't ever bother.

That's just me though. I think for some writers MFA programs can be hugely beneficial. Writers really have to decide for themselves which is the best route for them to take to achieve their aims, with feedback from others of course.

Weirdly, if time wasn't a consideration I'd probably go for an advanced degree in mathematics. Always liked the subject and it was the one thing I was halfway decent at.

ps Echoing this:

Originally Posted by yttar

Also, you and Stacia are so encouraging,

You must have lots of drive, and talent!

[Deb Kinnard]

I know a romance author with that MFA from Seton Hill (is it Hill, or Hall?). She's signed contracts for IIRC ten romance books to be released in the next three years. Three have already come out, and they're superb.

Josef owes me no apology. To offend, one's statement has to cut closer to truth.

And Stacia's right -- I never mentioned gender. Some of the SF writers I know whose genre has been as roundly dissed as romance are men. Some are women. It doesn't matter who the recipient is of this attitude, it seems pretty much equal-time for both genders and more than occasionally is voiced at other genres than romance.

And no, writing romance isn't like real work! I have fun reading Chaucer and Cervantes in the original to see if I'm getting the cadences right. I love reading history of the eras in which I want to set my romance stories. Yeah, it's work, but it's work I love to do...what could be better than that?

[Josef VonQuestenberg]

Originally Posted by Deb Kinnard

Josef owes me no apology. To offend, one's statement has to cut closer to truth.

And Stacia's right -- I never mentioned gender. Some of the SF writers I know whose genre has been as roundly dissed as romance are men. Some are women. It doesn't matter who the recipient is of this attitude, it seems pretty much equal-time for both genders and more than occasionally is voiced at other genres than romance.

I apologize for making such a broad assumption. I feel that I do owe an apology for at least the ignorance I have exhibited early on for my forum behavior here in the Romance section. I have the godawful tendancy to relate things to one another in my mind too often and jump to conclusions that are essentially sit me on the train rails in a subway, it can help in the fictional times and places I imagine, but when it comes to a community I have not adjusted to; I can be blatantly arrogant.

[Flicka]

I had this exact comment from an old (writer) friend - 'real' books vs. 'Harlequin books' a while back.

To me it explains why it's such hard work. I mean, clearly, writing something that defines the laws of logic and physics by being surreal and not existing as a real entity despite evidence to the contrary - clearly that must be soooo much harder than just writing an ordinary, mundane book, right?

[MissMacchiato]

Flicka, haha, too true. I actually think the strict controls surrounding the writing of harlequin books make them very very difficult to write. Same with historical romance. I think they're some of the harder genres IMO!

[johnnysannie]

Originally Posted by Deb Kinnard

And no, writing romance isn't like real work! I have fun reading Chaucer and Cervantes in the original to see if I'm getting the cadences right. I love reading history of the eras in which I want to set my romance stories. Yeah, it's work, but it's work I love to do...what could be better than that?

Nothing could be better.....I love what I do. It's not like getting up to an alarm, fighting traffic, putting up with a boss, and all the things I did when I still worked out in the real world. I may work 16 hours a day at times but I'm the one in charge.

And I thought I was the only one who loved reading Chaucer in the original!!!

Good to know I'm not alone!

[Cathy C]

When I first started writing, it was primarily SF and mysteries. It's all I read. My father-in-law was the one who suggested I write romance because "they were quick and simple and make a lot of money." But my initial reaction was "Ick! Are you ?"

I mean . . . romance? Eww! But that was because I'd never READ one. Never in 35 years. I presumed (without a single reason why) that they were awful, formulaic tripe and those who read them were . . . well, wouldn't like anything I wrote.

Yeah, really. Go ahead and me. I've been doing it to myself ever since my epiphany about the genre.

See, my book got picked up by an SF/F publisher, who proceeded to put the book in their new romance line. Say what?!

But it was picked up, and the editor was adament it WAS a romance, so the only thing I could think to do was research romances to see why she believed that. Because in my mind, it was a paranormal adventure where the guy happened to "get lucky." Being a male POV book written for men, I knew guys LIKE to get lucky.

But I read and read and read some more. All the different subgenres, to see what was going on. Because, see, I LIKED them, and that confused me. Not only could I recognize the extremely difficult craft mastered by these authors who could blend both a romance and a viable subgenre plot, but it turned out they were actually very entertaining and interesting.

So what to do? I had prejudices that were holding me back from reading a whole genre of books and getting past that prejudice was the best thing I ever did. Not only has it allowed me to appreciate the craft of writing more but I met terrific authors who I never knew wrote the genre. The more I read, the more I liked and now I can honestly say I LOVE romances (Well, not all. But most!) And I recognize that the books I liked in other genres were often because of the romance. I just didn't recognize it at the time.

So there's the sad tale of a converted elitist who is now a dyed-in-the-wool romance activist. Which means that others like me can have that same epiphany and discover the talented men and women to write romance.

Oh, and for those who don't know that are new (because it doesn't say "Mod Monkey" under my name) I'm also your romance co-moderator.

[brainstorm77]

Originally Posted by Cathy C

When I first started writing, it was primarily SF and mysteries. It's all I read. My father-in-law was the one who suggested I write romance because "they were quick and simple and make a lot of money." But my initial reaction was "Ick! Are you ?"

I mean . . . romance? Eww! But that was because I'd never READ one. Never in 35 years. I presumed (without a single reason why) that they were awful, formulaic tripe and those who read them were . . . well, wouldn't like anything I wrote.

Yeah, really. Go ahead and me. I've been doing it to myself ever since my epiphany about the genre.

See, my book got picked up by an SF/F publisher, who proceeded to put the book in their new romance line. Say what?!

But it was picked up, and the editor was adament it WAS a romance, so the only thing I could think to do was research romances to see why she believed that. Because in my mind, it was a paranormal adventure where the guy happened to "get lucky." Being a male POV book written for men, I knew guys LIKE to get lucky.

But I read and read and read some more. All the different subgenres, to see what was going on. Because, see, I LIKED them, and that confused me. Not only could I recognize the extremely difficult craft mastered by these authors who could blend both a romance and a viable subgenre plot, but it turned out they were actually very entertaining and interesting.

So what to do? I had prejudices that were holding me back from reading a whole genre of books and getting past that prejudice was the best thing I ever did. Not only has it allowed me to appreciate the craft of writing more but I met terrific authors who I never knew wrote the genre. The more I read, the more I liked and now I can honestly say I LOVE romances (Well, not all. But most!) And I recognize that the books I liked in other genres were often because of the romance. I just didn't recognize it at the time.

So there's the sad tale of a converted elitist who is now a dyed-in-the-wool romance activist. Which means that others like me can have that same epiphany and discover the talented men and women to write romance.

Oh, and for those who don't know that are new (because it doesn't say "Mod Monkey" under my name) I'm also your romance co-moderator.

How did you get away with this?

[Cathy C]

I didn't know AW existed until my second book.

[Hip-Hop-a-potamus]

If you guys haven't read The Boyfriend School by Sarah Bird, I highly recommend it.

The main character writes for a shoestring weekly indie paper in Austin, is having an affair with her boss, and he sends her to Dallas to cover the "Luvboree", a convention of romance writers.

She goes into it just as cynical as many of the folks you guys have been dealing with. And by the end of it, she's convinced that SHE can write a romance (because it's so EASY, right?).

Much more ensues, but the convention especially is hysterical. Before she started writing for Texas Monthly, Sarah Bird used to write romances, so she did it from her experiences. I seem to recall meeting her at an RWA meeting I went to with my mother years ago.

Check it out! Hip says 5 stars.

[gothicangel]

I rarely read romance fiction, and write crime fiction.

I really wouldn't get wound up by little twerps who say things like 'it's not real writing.'

Crime fiction gets crapped on like this too. Only last week I was reading an interview in The Observer with the creator of TV series Cracker, they guy said 'crime is piss easy to write . . . you have a winning formula, it's difficult to fail.'

A load of BS. Not that it bothered me, it was sour-grapes [he accused the BBC of favouring 'posh writers' over 'working class' because of the flurry in historical dramas.]

I also know of academics that break out in hives when they realises the Gothic academics teach Stephen King alongside Edgar Allan Poe and Anne Radcliffe.

[Another Editor]

Originally Posted by jennontheisland

Yes, misogyny is part of it.

The person making this comment was male. I did point out at the time that romance fiction and children's books seem to have a "not real writing" stigma attached to them, probably because most of the writers are women.

[Another Editor]

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

I started noticing that the books - even the brand new ones - all seemed the same to me. Different names, different locales, but otherwise same story. Now, maybe I was just over-dosed on them, but could this 'not real writing' come from that formula thing? I know that no matter how 'strict' the formula is, it still takes a great deal of imagination and work to make the story unique.

The person who made the comment that formed the OP's subject writes horror. He once told the group that he follows his own formula.

1. Introduce a character
2. Make the readers sympathize with the character
3. Kill the character in the messiest way imaginable
4. Repeat, escalating this along with the plot.

How is this different from romance?

[Another Editor]

Originally Posted by Deb Kinnard

Funny thing is -- I hang out with many other writers, quite a few of whom write outside romance. SF authors whose names you'd recognize, a mystery writer or two -- and each of them has reported this same dissing of their genre as the bottom of the fiction barrel. Not romance.

Makes you wonder sometimes what the actual agenda is here. Probably nothing deeper than expressing negative opinions in order to make oneself feel better in some trivial fashion.

You might be right. I think any genre fiction can be so stigmatized by anyone else and ultimately, it is a question of taste. By the same token, any kind of writing that is geared towards a mass audience rather than being written in a strictly "literary" way is going to be stigmatized, only by a different crowd (i.e., academics).

[Another Editor]

Originally Posted by Tifferbugz

I had a creative writing professor who said he had a romance author in one of his classes. This got a couple of snorts across the room. He pointed that he was extremely impressed with romance writers as a whole because they were creative enough to take essentially the same story of boy meets girl and make it new and interesting for their readers. His attitude seemed to surprise some of the students who thought they were too good for genre writing.

There is no source of knowledge and intelligence more impregnable than a university student, particularly an undergraduate. Show me someone who is working on his or her BA and I will show you someone who knows EVERYTHING. No force in the universe has more confidence and more immense intellectual power than an undergraduate. Such folk are legendary in their own minds.

Few forces are more feeble than the same person after he or she graduates and actually has to find a job.

Originally Posted by Tifferbugz

I hope the message made an impression on them. I have nothing but respect for people in this genre, not only is it difficult to come up with something new, but what is more interesting than a well-told love story? Not much, if you ask me.

I will accept this, along with the caveat that other genres have their own restrictions and constraints that the writers who work in them need to contend with. I will also submit that the "constraints" of a genre are not necessarily boundaries, but they are more akin to the frame of a painting. They create the space in which limitless creativity is possible.

[Tifferbugz]

Originally Posted by Another Editor

There is no source of knowledge and intelligence more impregnable than a university student, particularly an undergraduate. Show me someone who is working on his or her BA and I will show you someone who knows EVERYTHING. No force in the universe has more confidence and more immense intellectual power than an undergraduate. Such folk are legendary in their own minds.

Few forces are more feeble than the same person after he or she graduates and actually has to find a job.

Very true, their legendary knowledge can only be challenged by high school students.

As has been quoted in one form or another by many: the older you get the less you know.

I will accept this, along with the caveat that other genres have their own restrictions and constraints that the writers who work in them need to contend with. I will also submit that the "constraints" of a genre are not necessarily boundaries, but they are more akin to the frame of a painting. They create the space in which limitless creativity is possible.

Very true. I'm sure that all genres have unique challenges.

[Deb Kinnard]

Cathy et al. -- I submit that a novel is whatever the persons signing our contract say it is. If they want to market my little romances as spec-fic (and my medieval time travel has been called spec-fic, romance, historical, contemporary, you name it), horror, mystery, whatever, that's fine with me.

Just buy my book! Please!


(Okay, end of whine.)

[Unimportant]

Originally Posted by Another Editor

... probably because most of the writers are women.

Or because the audience isn't men. If it's not for men, then it can't be worthwhile.