Do readers notice or care about POV?

juniper · Dec 3, 2010

There's been a lot of talk on here lately about choosing POV, determining POV, 3rd limited vs omniscient, etc.

The one thing that's driven home in each thread is "stay true to whatever POV you choose - don't slip into another just for convenience or because of sloppiness."

I wonder how much the average reader notices or even cares about POV?

If I asked my husband, who likes fantasy and SF, to describe who's telling the story in a novel, he probably wouldn't be able to, without my asking multiple pointed questions. I think that's probably true of most readers who aren't writers, agents, editors, or creative writing students.

I've been watching the POV in published novels lately and have seen many lapses and problems. These are not obscure, small-press books.

I wonder if this goes hand-in-hand with another common theme here, which is "tell a good, solid story with memorable characters and don't sweat the other stuff."

I'm thinking about this today because of a novel I picked up at the library a couple of days ago. This is the 7th in a series by a well-known, celebrated author who has written another well-received series of 11 novels. He's prolific and popular. (I'm not writing this post to criticize his work at all but rather to clarify my understanding.)

The series I'm talking about features a woman who is given to long paragraphs of thought - she's a philosopher and the reader is in her head most of the time, deep in her head, reliving childhood memories, rehashing relationships, conversations, etc. It's deep 3rd limited - except when it isn't. :tongue

. The previous ones in this series were intimately 3rd limited with the MC but I hadn't been reading for POV so don't recall lapses.

In this current novel, the first paragraph is from her POV. She makes an opening statement with this tag: " .... " remarked (Jane Doe). The paragraph is that one short sentence. ***

The second paragraph goes into her companion's head - he knows she makes unusual statements and does not mind, but this one, he thinks, is more unusual than most.

Third paragraph is back in her head. "She had not intended ... "

The next 12 pages are also in her head. It seems that she is watching her companion as he nods and shrugs and says things. Then another paragraph where the companion "knew she wouldn't do that. He knew her well, and had noticed things ... "

The chapter ends. I'm thinking, ok, he's going for a more omniscient POV here.

But then the next 98 pages are all her intimate 3rd POV. We're living her life, her thoughts, her views of others. Until a paragraph on p 106 shows her boyfriend's POV suddenly: "(John Doe) reflected." The rest of the paragraph is his POV, end with an ellipsis . . . that actually is physical movement into the next paragraph which is now her POV again. "(Jane Doe) had disappeared . . . (new paragraph) into her study. This new paragraph is actually a new scene - double white space.

Wow, so this is really blowing my mind now. And then a few pages on we go back into her boyfriend's head.

SO - back to my original question - do readers even care about POV shifts? Do they notice? Doesn't seem to have hurt the big selling authors - there have been so many posts about "I can't believe so-and-so gets away with writing that stuff."

Now, as a lowly unpubbed fiction writer, I am taking pains to make sure my POV stays true. I don't want to give an agent or editor reason to think I don't know my stuff.

I just wonder, from the READER'S POV, does this really matter?

(Long post, sorry. I'm feeling more introspective than usual tonight.)

*** changed some details of the work in question so as not to criticize the work. If this needs to be edited further, mods please feel free)

jallenecs · Dec 3, 2010

I always notice when there is indiscriminate head jumping. It's confusing, and I don't like it. It's enough to make me ditch a book.

juniper · Dec 3, 2010

But you are a writer, right? I mean just regular old readers. Who aren't trained in POV.

ETA: I added bolding to my original question to make that long post more understandable, I hope.

rugcat · Dec 3, 2010

The short answer is that if it's done well, readers don't notice POV shifts -- they accept them without thinking. But that assumes the writer knows what she's doing. It it's done accidentally, or sloppily, yes they do notice. They may not be able to put a name to it, but they're liable to stop reading because they find the book disjointed and "confusing."

On a slightly different note, there are people who dislike certain POVs. I love first person, but I know quite a few people who won't read a first person book if they can help it.

rainsmom · Dec 3, 2010

I doubt that readers who aren't writers or otherwise educated on the subject care at all about POV. HOWEVER, readers don't publish your book. Publishers do, and they care about POV and other "small stuff."

If you are an unpublished writer, it doesn't do any good to look at writers who are on book 20 and say, "Hey, he did that, so I can too."

1. When they first published, they VERY likely conformed to the conventions of their time. Conventions change.
2. If they've been profitable for their publishers, they've likely earned some leeway -- leeway which will last exactly as long as they are profitable.
3. This is an INCREDIBLY competitive time to be breaking into publishing. You have to be the best -- period.

.

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2010

I believe readers absolutely do know when an author is not fully in control of his or her techniques. They might not know what to call it, but they still know when the book's disjointed, as rugcat said.

Anyway - a writer of any worth should be asking themselves not questions similar to "Can I get away with this?" or "Will the reader notice?" Rather, the only question that matters is, "Have I written this book to the best of my abilities?"

At the risk of sounding Oprah-esque, now that you know better, do better.

blacbird · Dec 3, 2010

There's a spectrum here. Some most definitely do, on a conscious level. They are almost certainly a minority.

Some don't. As long as you have enough graphic sex and violence, they'll read anything. They are also a minority.

Then there is the middle segment, probably a majority. These are the readers who won't be able to notice technically what is wrong, but will feel it, when their reading experience is disrupted subliminally by stuff that just doesn't work, doesn't make sense. How did he know the gun was in that desk drawer? How did she know the name of that man she'd never seen before in her life?

Do as McPeaches says. She knows, and likes control.

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2010

blacbird said:
Do as McPeaches says. She knows, and likes control.

When it comes to my writing anyway. :e2brows:

Susan Coffin · Dec 3, 2010

I think you are underestimating the average reader who has no interest in writing. People talk about stories they read and what's right and what's wrong. Your average reader does care about point of view and the writer keeper true to that.

Stacia Kane · Dec 3, 2010

I certainly noticed and cared about POV before I started writing. I never particularly liked first person and I still don't; that's why I don't write in it. I know quite a few people who are just readers who feel the same.

POV switches may not be noticed as much if they're done well, but the reader certainly notices if the book is in 1st, 3rd, or omniscient, and they very well might have a preference. And as Scarletpeaches said, if it isn't done well they may not quite get what the problem is, but they'll know there's a problem.

Sarah Madara · Dec 3, 2010

A reader will notice if it's confusing.

I don't think they notice some of the little stuff. My pet peeve is the blushing. I've read in a few different sources that you can't say Jane blushed if it's from her POV, because she can't see herself blush. (Let's set aside how overused blushing is.)

I was reading a novel in close third and every time the character blushed, it was something like "She felt the heat rise in her cheeks." Maybe it's because I know the rule the author was following, but this just took me out of the moment. Just say she blushed already and move on with it. I really don't think it's that big a deal.

End of rant

kaitie · Dec 3, 2010

The book I'm reading right now has lots of head jumping, and while I'm actually usually someone who can ignore that the majority of the time, it seems really out of place in this one because so much of the book seems to be in limited POV. Every time I read it, I seriously stop and think, "Okay, that was weird."

Otherwise, though, I know that I personally put up with a lot. One thing that's generally been guaranteed to annoy me is to have multiple POV characters, though. I've always had one character I like best, and generally one I can't stand, and I find myself spending entire chunks of the book just thinking, "Come on, get back to the good guy."

Juliette Wade · Dec 3, 2010

A lot of what goes on with language goes on in a place where we don't notice it consciously. We just know the sense that we get from it - the feel of it. When a writer is in control of all these aspects of his/her writing, readers can feel it in much the same way that we can hear dissonance and harmony in music (even if we haven't been trained to know what to call them). A piece of writing that is written in fully controlled language will ring like a bell, even though we may not be able to put our finger on why. Yes, of course story is important, and it isn't the same as the language the story is written with. But I know many people, plenty of whom would be called "naive readers," who would simply be too confused by head-hopping to continue reading. Switching from one person's head to another can be done with graceful control too, I might add. It works when the author manages to do it with just the right cues (again, subconscious for most). It doesn't work as well if the author doesn't have that kind of textual control. I have a detailed linguistic analysis of head-hopping here, if you're curious.

AyJay · Dec 3, 2010

This is an interesting question. Over the past few years, as I've honed my own writing, I've definitely become much more aware of POV lapses in the books I read. (And it bugs me terribly).

But I'd agree with rainsmom - there's no use in complaining about what certain writers get away with. For those of us who are still looking for a big publishing break, all we can do is learn from the mistakes and make our own manuscripts stronger.

maestrowork · Dec 3, 2010

I think while a casual reader may not notice, a well-read reader definitely will notice something isn't quite right. Or maybe bothered by, say, head-hopping. Things like that do tend to take the reader out of the story.

The readers may not understand why, but they will feel something is off, and they're momentarily taken out of the story. Now, if the story, character, plot, etc. are strong, such a minor interruption could be rectified. People put up with a lot of crap to see "what happens next." So story does trump everything. Still, it'd be a mistake to say non-writers don't know when a POV goes wrong.

And just because another author messes with the POV doesn't mean you should. As writers, we should always strive to do our best, and that means learning and improving our skills. I don't believe in "settling for less just to get by" as a writer. Does that mean we won't slip up? Of course, not. I do sometimes. But when I see it, I fix it. I don't say, "Oh well, the readers are not going to notice." You know why? Because *I* notice, and I know a lot of my writer friends will notice, too. It's like, if you're a top chef, would you send your second-rate dishes out to the customers, hoping they won't notice? We take pride in what we do.

I'm worried that the OP is asking the question because she is thinking "hey, if I can get away with it..." Don't even go there. The minute you think you can relax and just skimp by because "they won't notice anyway," it's the day maybe you should consider another profession. There sure are other writers who take this seriously, and it's a very competitive career.

Now, as for that author the OP mentioned... are we sure the book wasn't written in omniscient. Remember, just because it's omniscient doesn't mean it can't focus on just ONE character, even for an extended period of time. If there's a distinct narrator, it can very well be an omniscient narrator who happens to focus on one character for 98 pages. Without reading the book, I can't answer that.

leahzero · Dec 3, 2010

Do readers notice? I think most readers can, and the likelihood that they will notice rises the more avid of a reader they are.

I don't like approaching this issue from the standpoint that sloppiness is tolerable if other qualities compensate for it. Will readers tolerate sloppy technique and random POV shifts if they're engaged with other aspects of the book? Yeah, probably. But doesn't poor technique limit the total enjoyment of a book? Wouldn't that book be even better if the author controlled POV and made deliberate, intelligent POV shifts, instead of careless ones?

Personally, POV sloppiness destroys my trust in the writer. Example: it's done in a very mild, occasional way in THE PASSAGE, and it still annoyed the fark out of me. It was just so pointless--used for silly "dramatic" foreshadowing by a lazy author. The editor who let it stand should be ashamed. That, plus the stupid Character We Thought Was Dead Is Actually Alive trope, ruined my immersion in the story. Instead of entertaining the dark, grave mood of the book, I read it sardonically, mentally mocking it.

The book in the OP's example sounds like it has equally pointless POV shifting. Does knowing throwaway bits of opinion like that actually enrich the narrative or characterization? Doesn't sound like it.

Cyia · Dec 3, 2010

Yes, they notice.
Yes, they care.
Yes, it occasionally gets published anyway.
Yes, it will be mocked if it happens.

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2010

Agreeing with maestrowork and leahzero wholeheartedly here.

Just because we can get away with something doesn't mean we should.

And really, how much does it cost you to utilise your best techniques and skill as a writer? Why hold back from making every page your best work? Maybe you could get away with publishing something that's somehow 'less' but why on Earth would you want to?

As maestrowork said, maybe no-one else would notice, but I would. Are my published books perfect? Hell no. I read them even yet and see things I'd change, but they were the best of which I was capable at the time. My next book will be better. My fourth, better still. There will be no backsliding here, nor any 'getting away with it'. I don't want to get away with it. I want to improve with every book, whether or not my readers notice.

Why? Because I will.

juniper · Dec 3, 2010

maestrowork said:
I'm worried that the OP is asking the question because she is thinking "hey, if I can get away with it..." Don't even go there. The minute you think you can relax and just skimp by because "they won't notice anyway," it's the day maybe you should consider another profession. There sure are other writers who take this seriously, and it's a very competitive career.

No need to worry about that, mate. I guess you skipped this paragraph in the admittedly very long and probably tiresome original post:

"Now, as a lowly unpubbed fiction writer, I am taking pains to make sure my POV stays true. I don't want to give an agent or editor reason to think I don't know my stuff."

So please, everyone, don't be jumping on me! I'm not trying to get away with anything.

I'm just curious about how the average reader sees the stuff. I agree with those who said they may sense that something is off but not know exactly what. And they may sense it but will still read on if the story and characters are strong enough.

I haven't read any reviews mocking this author's lack of writing skills. All I see are his books everywhere. Along with so many other writers who would be ripped to shreds in SYW.

I, being by nature too introspective, too lacking self confidence, too much of the perfectionist type that thinks, "If I can't do it perfectly then I won't try at all," will not ever be able to just let things slide. I go the opposite direction, worrying things to death and never getting them out into the world.

Carry on, eh?

Sarah Madara · Dec 3, 2010

To the OP: I couldn't tell if the POV shifts in the novel you mentioned bothered you as a reader, or as a writer. In other words, if you didn't know the "rules," do you think it would have bugged you?

I believe in any art form, rules are made to be broken. The catch is, you have master following the rules first. Music is an easy comparison - when I studied piano, I was encouraged to listen to recordings of the greats, but never to imitate them when they broke convention. Claudio Arrau did his trill differently? Yeah, he can do that. You, grasshopper, will do it the "right" way.

When a real master breaks the rules, it's not arbitrary or lazy, and he doesn't get away with it because he's famous. He (or she) gets away with it because it works - and because he's just that good.

I think focusing on whether a published author breaks the rules is beside the point. Ask yourself if it worked.

maestrowork · Dec 3, 2010

juniper said:
No need to worry about that, mate. I guess you skipped this paragraph in the admittedly very long and probably tiresome original post:

"Now, as a lowly unpubbed fiction writer, I am taking pains to make sure my POV stays true. I don't want to give an agent or editor reason to think I don't know my stuff."

So please, everyone, don't be jumping on me! I'm not trying to get away with anything.

Good to know.

I'm just curious about how the average reader sees the stuff. I agree with those who said they may sense that something is off but not know exactly what. And they may sense it but will still read on if the story and characters are strong enough.

Just like a normal person looking at a building or tasting food... they may not know what exactly is wrong and how to fix it, but they sure sense something is wrong when the building floor is crooked or if the food tastes weird. Does that mean they will flee the building or send the food back? Not necessarily. The good sometimes outweighs the bad, or the person is just too tired (or complacent) to do anything about it.

I haven't read any reviews mocking this author's lack of writing skills. All I see are his books everywhere. Along with so many other writers who would be ripped to shreds in SYW.

Some of these writers also spent a while in the slush pile, too. Again, story trumps everything. Despite their technical flaws (and readers do notice these flaws), they are not bad enough to distract the readers from the fantastic stories or intrigue. That's where these writers do well -- to intrigue their readers and give them an escape. If you have a FANTASTIC story and characters, chances are you can probably get away with a few things, too.... like, not being the best writer in the world.

I, being by nature too introspective, too lacking self confidence, too much of the perfectionist type that thinks, "If I can't do it perfectly then I won't try at all," will not ever be able to just let things slide. I go the opposite direction, worrying things to death and never getting them out into the world.

The way I see it... if you don't try it, you won't fail, and if you don't fail, you won't improve, and if you don't improve, you won't succeed.

I mean, would you tell a kid not to learn how to stand and walk just because she can't do it perfect the first time, and that she will fall over and over again? Of course not. Then why should writing be any different?

blacbird · Dec 3, 2010

maestrowork said:
I mean, would you tell a kid not to learn how to stand and walk just because she can't do it perfect the first time, and that she will fall over and over again? Of course not. Then why should writing be any different?

Your analogy works only as long as there isn't an outside agency passing judgment on whether or not the kid actually walks. That's the difference between a toddler learning to walk and a writer achieving publication.

Juliette Wade · Dec 3, 2010

As a parent, I must remark that there is an outside agency passing judgment on whether a child walks... it's everybody. And the child looks at your face and can tell they have to do better, and sometimes it upsets them a lot. It just happens face-to-face so it's a lot faster.

Miriel · Dec 3, 2010

I think this is a hard question to ask a bunch of writers, because we're not "just readers" but my take is that someone will, though I don't know how many. I think this is true of everything -- someone will notice a typo, an inconsistency, a flaw in plot logic, etc. There are plenty of things I don't see when reading (like typos, in my books or others) that other do. I think a little POV break that's not too jarring would be like that.

thethinker42 · Dec 3, 2010

In talking to readers who aren't writers, I haven't had any tell me, "OMG, the head-hopping, they were breaking a rule!" or "This author is fine, except they keep shifting POVs," but I have heard, "I kept getting lost and having to backtrack to figure out who was talking."

Do *readers* notice or care about POV?

Always curious.

Searching for Wonderland

Always curious.

Lost in the Fog

Feeling like an old timer

Tell it like it Is

Girl Detective

Freeway stomper extraordinaire

With great power comes

Interprets for aliens

Luv's Conscript

Fear the Death Ray

The colors! THE COLORS!

Rewriting My Destiny

Always curious.

Freeway stomper extraordinaire

Fear the Death Ray

Interprets for aliens

New kid, be gentle!

Abnormal Romance Author

Do readers notice or care about POV?