Black Swan (spoilers)

Gale Haut · 12-22-2010, 10:13 PM

I'm starting to wonder if Darren Aronofsky can do wrong. This was by far my favorite movie of his. For a psychological thriller to have me on the edge of my seat, leg twitching nervously, up until the very end--wow.

I'd love to have a discussion of the major points in the film. To get us started, I'll ask a general question.

Did the film have an overall theme?

veinglory · 12-22-2010, 10:21 PM

I thought the film worked as a piece of entertainment, but the underlying themes didn't stand up to much scrutiny. Possibly something about the two side of personality.

katiemac · 12-22-2010, 10:35 PM

Obsession.

I liked it well enough, but I'm not enamored with it. There's a lot about it that I didn't think worked, especially the mirror/reflection stuff is pretty overdone when it comes to split personalities, and this was very overhanded. I also think Natalie Portman was good, but maybe her performance was elevated by the material and not the other way around.

Smileycat · 12-23-2010, 01:46 AM

SPOILERS!

I liked both Portman and Kunis' performances, although I don't think either will win an Oscar for her work in this very interesting film. Oronofsky has managed to make the vague and even the over-the-top mirror images, as well as the deeds that were never done, scary. I enjoyed the sequence where Portman's character (as the Queen/Black Swan) practically turns into a black swan as she dances. She is frightened, yet resigned when she realizes she has stabbed herself in the gut and claims 'perfection' for herself at last. I thought it was nicely done. Bravo!

childeroland · 12-23-2010, 02:05 AM

To quote Walter Chaw, the theme is the bloody life cycle of an artist engaged in the creation of both her art and herself as an artist. And how we the audience want--in our art, our blood sport, our art that is hidden blood sport--our pound of flesh from entertainers and reward them by demanding more.

I don't know about Kunis, but I think Portman will probably win the Oscar. Her only real competition at this point is Bening, for The Kids are Alright. Kidman is also a possible spoiler.

maestrowork · 12-23-2010, 02:09 AM

Portman has some stiff competition this year. Kidman seems to be the frontrunner for Rabbit Hole, but I think Portman does have a chance. It helps that she's never won before.

childeroland · 12-23-2010, 02:12 AM

Kidman IS quite amazing in Rabbit Hole, as is the neglected Aaron Eckhart.

maestrowork · 12-23-2010, 02:15 AM

As much as I love Ms. Portman (and I do... hmmm, where am I?) I do think there's a great chance that Kidman will win her second Oscar, although Bening could pull an upset since Hollywood loves her.

childeroland · 12-23-2010, 03:16 AM

IDK. Portman's won most of the critics' awards so far (including Chicago and Austin, where Black Swan swept) and Bening won the NYFCC award, I think, and the Women Critics Circle Award. Unless one of them flames out early, which is always possible... *shrugs*

Gale Haut · 12-23-2010, 03:40 AM

I agree that there were inconsistencies in how Portman's delusions were presented on screen. Sometimes Lily was a doppleganger, sometimes she was an obvious projection of some dark inner self, sometimes she came off as an altogether separate personality switching between Kunis' and Portman's face... And many of the images and metaphors collided. The mirror for example. It seemed to emphasize the artist's delusion of imperfection, where Nina would see some imaginary wound or discover herself moving differently than she perceived--losing control. And all of the imagery became this chaotic collage of things that didn't perfectly tie together. Especially when the mirror was involved.

But these possible inconsistencies actually strengthened the horror of the film for me. It made the movie less predictable. And felt, as far as presentation was concerned, to work really well. I don't know. It felt more realistic and organic.

When I think of the surreal imagery, I don't believe that it's all meant to come together in some cohesive meaningful way. Each image and how it was represented, I was able to relate to from my own experience performing in front of live audiences. So I think that they were all very specific to what's happening in the film at that time.

Am I making any sense?

childeroland · 12-23-2010, 05:26 AM

I also assumed we were seeing Lily--both the real Lily and the one Nina's imagining--through Nina's eyes anyway, so, yeah, I'm not sure it was supposed to be consistent.

Gale Haut · 12-23-2010, 06:12 AM

Exactly! Because when Nina was actually seeing Beth in the second hospital scene, she projected her delusions onto the girl. As we find out that she was actually the one stabbing the woman's face when Nina looks at her bloody hands and realizes she's still holding the nail file. Nina's not a reliable POV, for sure. So even Lily's sexual relationship with the prince could have been an element of the ballet that Nina was projecting.

I think if you're really going to look carefully at the movie you'd have to take a close look at what happens in Swan Lake. [edit]As she seems to be subconsciously injecting her own life with the story.[/edit]

maestrowork · 12-23-2010, 07:10 AM

Just came back... wow! I loved it. It was great. Natalie is amazing. She may actually win an Oscar for this (as much as I liked Bening in The Kids Are All Right, and I haven't seen Rabbit Hole yet).

At first I thought it was split personality, too but now I'm convinced it's actually schizophrenia, and she's had history of self-miltilation. Her "frigid" personality is possibly part of her disorder, as is her paranoia and, of course, delusions. At first we thought her mother was the abusive, possessive one, but then we kind of realize she's protective and she probably knows her daughter has schizophrenia. And I think it's brilliant to mesh that with the theme about being an artist: how you need to let go and embrace your dark side, or how you may get so absorbed in your work that you literally become a different person (actors know what I'm talking about here)... mixed with the "evil twin" and "seduction/betrayal" themes in Swan Lake itself... These are complex themes and I think it's very well done and presented. When Portman performed the Black Swan she took my breath away. That was some powerful performances there. The intercuts between Portman and her dancer body double is seamless.

Certainly a great "man vs. self" story -- if you want to see how to externalize an internal struggle/conflict, this is a good case study.

The mirror motif is a bit overdone and repetitive, but it doesn't distract me from the power of the story.

Quote:

Exactly! Because when Nina was actually seeing Beth in the second hospital scene, she projected her delusions onto the girl. As we find out that she was actually the one stabbing the woman's face when Nina looks at her bloody hands and realizes she's still holding the nail file. Nina's not a reliable POV, for sure. So even Lily's sexual relationship with the prince could have been an element of the ballet that Nina was projecting.

Exactly. We don't know what is her delusions or what is real. Was Lily really fucking the director? Probably not. Was Lily groping the Prince? Most likely not. But that's what she is seeing. And she can't tell what is real and what is not. Neither can we. I think that's the point.

Gale Haut · 12-23-2010, 07:24 AM

Yay! Someone else that's really excited about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maestrowork

The intercuts between Portman and her dancer body double is seamless.

Did you know that Portman studied ballet for a year to prepare for the role (I believe she already had some experience), and only 10% of the ballet is done by a double? More than likely some of the footwork.

But I'm still not sold on her POV being the result of an actual diagnosable problem. This mainly because the movie is meant to be a companion to The Wrestler. I think that the reducing some of the imagery to being the result of Schizophrenia or something else lessens what they might actually mean.

Maybe what Aronofsky is saying is that performance arts themselves can drive a person insane in a totally unique way.

I'm really glad you liked it, maestro! XD

maestrowork · 12-23-2010, 08:31 AM

I can certainly see and appreciate the work she put into the dancing and movements, and she's very convincing. But you can tell some of the stuff (footwork, etc.) is beyond her skill level (she is, after all, playing the Swan Queen) and the intercutting is superb.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard · 12-23-2010, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy

Did the film have an overall theme?

childeroland · 12-23-2010, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maestrowork

I can certainly see and appreciate the work she put into the dancing and movements, and she's very convincing. But you can tell some of the stuff (footwork, etc.) is beyond her skill level (she is, after all, playing the Swan Queen) and the intercutting is superb.

Sarah Lane did much of Portman's footwork. Andrew Weisblum's editing has a good shot at winning the Oscar.

maestrowork · 12-23-2010, 10:42 PM

The editing is exceptional.

AyJay · 12-24-2010, 01:04 AM

I loved this film, for many of the reasons sited above, so I'll just add...

I thought the mother/daughter relationship was fascinating and really well-done. It starts out very "normal" with Barbara Hershey appearing to be a sweet and supportive mother and then it descends through many darker shades with her controlling behaviors and morbid paintings (these are partly a projection of Nina's, but my read was there was something odd going on to start). Their relationship made Nina even more sympathetic to me. She has to find a piece of wood to prop her door closed so her mother won't get in. It's a really interesting family dynamic typical of girls who have eating disorders and other compulsive behaviors like self-injury.

childeroland · 12-24-2010, 02:40 AM

Some people detect hints of sexual abuse in the relationship. I haven't... Anyone else?

Gale Haut · 12-24-2010, 02:56 AM

Such an important character. And it was subtle how they brought out the unnatural elements of their relationship, like you were saying. I think the first scene where I got the sense that something was way off happened with the cake. The woman obviously knew that Nina couldn't eat it but practically forced it on her.

The mother was definitely living vicariously through her daughter while at the same time afraid to let her "spread her wings," so to speak. It seemed as though she wanted to preserve this perfect version of the girl as a memory of what she used to be. Hence, all the paintings, which also showed the woman's whole life was pretty much completely about her daughter--to an unhealthy extent. She was sort of capturing the perfect frigid version of her. But people need an outlet to not be perfect as well. I'm inclined to blame Nina's going overboard on her mother--but maybe that says more about me than the movie. lol

Childeroland, I didn't have the slightest inkling of sexual abuse. Some pretty blatant and heavy-handed sexual repression, yes.

Celia Cyanide · 12-24-2010, 10:24 AM

I just saw it....I'll be back later to say more, but I thought it was amazing. I never knew Swan Lake was such a messed up story.

Smileycat · 12-25-2010, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AyJay

I loved this film, for many of the reasons sited above, so I'll just add...

I thought the mother/daughter relationship was fascinating and really well-done. It starts out very "normal" with Barbara Hershey appearing to be a sweet and supportive mother and then it descends through many darker shades with her controlling behaviors and morbid paintings (these are partly a projection of Nina's, but my read was there was something odd going on to start). Their relationship made Nina even more sympathetic to me. She has to find a piece of wood to prop her door closed so her mother won't get in. It's a really interesting family dynamic typical of girls who have eating disorders and other compulsive behaviors like self-injury.

I feel that the mother (nicely played by Barbara Hershey) knew about her daughter's mental problems and wanted her to stay home so that she could keep an eye on her. Maybe she was a tad jealous of her daughter's limited success, but I think she wanted her to be well. Her daughter saw her as being meddling and preventing her from having a full life, but I think that was just a delusion.

As far as the cake goes, I think that may have stemmed from a feeling that she couldn't help her daughter past a certain point and that she wanted to connect with her however she could. It also may have been part of the mother's jealousy towards her daughter.

BeatrixKiddo · 12-25-2010, 03:25 AM

I'm dying to see this movie. Maybe over the weekend. I think Natalie was an interesting choice for this role.

Arianna Sterling · 12-25-2010, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maestrowork

Exactly. We don't know what is her delusions or what is real. Was Lily really fucking the director? Probably not. Was Lily groping the Prince? Most likely not. But that's what she is seeing. And she can't tell what is real and what is not. Neither can we. I think that's the point.

This.

I just went to see it earlier today (and am planning to go back and see it again). It's become my second favourite movie of all time. And it inspired the hell out of me.

12-22-2010, 10:13 PM	#1
Gale Haut waxing digital artistic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The Borderlands Posts: 2,298	Black Swan (spoilers) I'm starting to wonder if Darren Aronofsky can do wrong. This was by far my favorite movie of his. For a psychological thriller to have me on the edge of my seat, leg twitching nervously, up until the very end--wow. I'd love to have a discussion of the major points in the film. To get us started, I'll ask a general question. Did the film have an overall theme? __________________ » Publishing Packages Available «

12-22-2010, 10:21 PM	#2
veinglory volitare nequeo AW Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: right here Posts: 23,267	I thought the film worked as a piece of entertainment, but the underlying themes didn't stand up to much scrutiny. Possibly something about the two side of personality. __________________ Coming Soon: Taniwha in the Cleis Press anthology 'Beach Bums' *[pre order now!]* New Release: Broken Sword via Amazon Kindle

12-23-2010, 01:46 AM	#4
Smileycat The Punk Cat Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: NY Posts: 1,019	SPOILERS! SPOILERS! I liked both Portman and Kunis' performances, although I don't think either will win an Oscar for her work in this very interesting film. Oronofsky has managed to make the vague and even the over-the-top mirror images, as well as the deeds that were never done, scary. I enjoyed the sequence where Portman's character (as the Queen/Black Swan) practically turns into a black swan as she dances. She is frightened, yet resigned when she realizes she has stabbed herself in the gut and claims 'perfection' for herself at last. I thought it was nicely done. Bravo!

12-23-2010, 02:05 AM	#5
childeroland What happened to my LIFE?! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2,731	To quote Walter Chaw, the theme is the bloody life cycle of an artist engaged in the creation of both her art and herself as an artist. And how we the audience want--in our art, our blood sport, our art that is hidden blood sport--our pound of flesh from entertainers and reward them by demanding more. I don't know about Kunis, but I think Portman will probably win the Oscar. Her only real competition at this point is Bening, for The Kids are Alright. Kidman is also a possible spoiler. __________________ Someday we'll fall down and weep...and we'll understand it all. All things.-- Terrence Malick, The Tree of Life F&^%ing magnets. How to they work?--Insane Clown Posse

12-23-2010, 02:09 AM	#6
maestrowork Fear the Death Ray Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: wgasa Posts: 43,746	Portman has some stiff competition this year. Kidman seems to be the frontrunner for Rabbit Hole, but I think Portman does have a chance. It helps that she's never won before. __________________ I didn't want to work. It was as simple as that. I distrusted work, disliked it. I thought it was a very bad thing that the human race had unfortunately invented for itself. -- Agatha Christie The Pacific Between • A Bunch of Stories (2006 IPPY Award) WIP: Beyond the Banyan Tree - draft 9, 125,000 words Home Page \| Blog \| Reviews

12-22-2010, 10:35 PM	#3
katiemac Five by Five SuperModerator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Yesterday Posts: 10,546	Obsession. I liked it well enough, but I'm not enamored with it. There's a lot about it that I didn't think worked, especially the mirror/reflection stuff is pretty overdone when it comes to split personalities, and this was very overhanded. I also think Natalie Portman was good, but maybe her performance was elevated by the material and not the other way around.

12-23-2010, 02:12 AM	#7
childeroland What happened to my LIFE?! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2,731	Kidman IS quite amazing in Rabbit Hole, as is the neglected Aaron Eckhart. __________________ Someday we'll fall down and weep...and we'll understand it all. All things.-- Terrence Malick, The Tree of Life F&^%ing magnets. How to they work?--Insane Clown Posse

12-23-2010, 02:15 AM	#8
maestrowork Fear the Death Ray Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: wgasa Posts: 43,746	As much as I love Ms. Portman (and I do... hmmm, where am I?) I do think there's a great chance that Kidman will win her second Oscar, although Bening could pull an upset since Hollywood loves her. __________________ I didn't want to work. It was as simple as that. I distrusted work, disliked it. I thought it was a very bad thing that the human race had unfortunately invented for itself. -- Agatha Christie The Pacific Between • A Bunch of Stories (2006 IPPY Award) WIP: Beyond the Banyan Tree - draft 9, 125,000 words Home Page \| Blog \| Reviews

12-23-2010, 03:16 AM	#9
childeroland What happened to my LIFE?! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2,731	IDK. Portman's won most of the critics' awards so far (including Chicago and Austin, where Black Swan swept) and Bening won the NYFCC award, I think, and the Women Critics Circle Award. Unless one of them flames out early, which is always possible... shrugs __________________ Someday we'll fall down and weep...and we'll understand it all. All things.-- Terrence Malick, The Tree of Life F&^%ing magnets. How to they work?--Insane Clown Posse

12-23-2010, 03:40 AM	#10
Gale Haut waxing digital artistic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The Borderlands Posts: 2,298	I agree that there were inconsistencies in how Portman's delusions were presented on screen. Sometimes Lily was a doppleganger, sometimes she was an obvious projection of some dark inner self, sometimes she came off as an altogether separate personality switching between Kunis' and Portman's face... And many of the images and metaphors collided. The mirror for example. It seemed to emphasize the artist's delusion of imperfection, where Nina would see some imaginary wound or discover herself moving differently than she perceived--losing control. And all of the imagery became this chaotic collage of things that didn't perfectly tie together. Especially when the mirror was involved. But these possible inconsistencies actually strengthened the horror of the film for me. It made the movie less predictable. And felt, as far as presentation was concerned, to work really well. I don't know. It felt more realistic and organic. When I think of the surreal imagery, I don't believe that it's all meant to come together in some cohesive meaningful way. Each image and how it was represented, I was able to relate to from my own experience performing in front of live audiences. So I think that they were all very specific to what's happening in the film at that time. Am I making any sense? __________________ » Publishing Packages Available «

12-23-2010, 05:26 AM	#11
childeroland What happened to my LIFE?! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2,731	I also assumed we were seeing Lily--both the real Lily and the one Nina's imagining--through Nina's eyes anyway, so, yeah, I'm not sure it was supposed to be consistent. __________________ Someday we'll fall down and weep...and we'll understand it all. All things.-- Terrence Malick, The Tree of Life F&^%ing magnets. How to they work?--Insane Clown Posse

12-23-2010, 06:12 AM	#12
Gale Haut waxing digital artistic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The Borderlands Posts: 2,298	Exactly! Because when Nina was actually seeing Beth in the second hospital scene, she projected her delusions onto the girl. As we find out that she was actually the one stabbing the woman's face when Nina looks at her bloody hands and realizes she's still holding the nail file. Nina's not a reliable POV, for sure. So even Lily's sexual relationship with the prince could have been an element of the ballet that Nina was projecting. I think if you're really going to look carefully at the movie you'd have to take a close look at what happens in Swan Lake. [edit]As she seems to be subconsciously injecting her own life with the story.[/edit] __________________ » Publishing Packages Available « Last edited by Gale Haut; 12-23-2010 at 07:00 AM.

12-23-2010, 08:31 AM	#15
maestrowork Fear the Death Ray Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: wgasa Posts: 43,746	I can certainly see and appreciate the work she put into the dancing and movements, and she's very convincing. But you can tell some of the stuff (footwork, etc.) is beyond her skill level (she is, after all, playing the Swan Queen) and the intercutting is superb. __________________ I didn't want to work. It was as simple as that. I distrusted work, disliked it. I thought it was a very bad thing that the human race had unfortunately invented for itself. -- Agatha Christie The Pacific Between • A Bunch of Stories (2006 IPPY Award) WIP: Beyond the Banyan Tree - draft 9, 125,000 words Home Page \| Blog \| Reviews

12-23-2010, 10:42 PM	#18
maestrowork Fear the Death Ray Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: wgasa Posts: 43,746	The editing is exceptional. __________________ I didn't want to work. It was as simple as that. I distrusted work, disliked it. I thought it was a very bad thing that the human race had unfortunately invented for itself. -- Agatha Christie The Pacific Between • A Bunch of Stories (2006 IPPY Award) WIP: Beyond the Banyan Tree - draft 9, 125,000 words Home Page \| Blog \| Reviews

12-24-2010, 01:04 AM	#19
AyJay Luv's Conscript Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 569	I loved this film, for many of the reasons sited above, so I'll just add... I thought the mother/daughter relationship was fascinating and really well-done. It starts out very "normal" with Barbara Hershey appearing to be a sweet and supportive mother and then it descends through many darker shades with her controlling behaviors and morbid paintings (these are partly a projection of Nina's, but my read was there was something odd going on to start). Their relationship made Nina even more sympathetic to me. She has to find a piece of wood to prop her door closed so her mother won't get in. It's a really interesting family dynamic typical of girls who have eating disorders and other compulsive behaviors like self-injury. __________________ andrewjpeterswrites.com LGBT Writers at AW Facebook Twitter Bold Strokes Books Author Page

12-24-2010, 02:40 AM	#20
childeroland What happened to my LIFE?! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2,731	Some people detect hints of sexual abuse in the relationship. I haven't... Anyone else? __________________ Someday we'll fall down and weep...and we'll understand it all. All things.-- Terrence Malick, The Tree of Life F&^%ing magnets. How to they work?--Insane Clown Posse

12-24-2010, 02:56 AM	#21
Gale Haut waxing digital artistic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The Borderlands Posts: 2,298	Such an important character. And it was subtle how they brought out the unnatural elements of their relationship, like you were saying. I think the first scene where I got the sense that something was way off happened with the cake. The woman obviously knew that Nina couldn't eat it but practically forced it on her. The mother was definitely living vicariously through her daughter while at the same time afraid to let her "spread her wings," so to speak. It seemed as though she wanted to preserve this perfect version of the girl as a memory of what she used to be. Hence, all the paintings, which also showed the woman's whole life was pretty much completely about her daughter--to an unhealthy extent. She was sort of capturing the perfect frigid version of her. But people need an outlet to not be perfect as well. I'm inclined to blame Nina's going overboard on her mother--but maybe that says more about me than the movie. lol Childeroland, I didn't have the slightest inkling of sexual abuse. Some pretty blatant and heavy-handed sexual repression, yes. __________________ » Publishing Packages Available «

12-24-2010, 10:24 AM	#22
Celia Cyanide Joker Groupie Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: probably watching DARK KNIGHT Posts: 12,020	I just saw it....I'll be back later to say more, but I thought it was amazing. I never knew Swan Lake was such a messed up story. __________________ My feature film WHY AM I IN A BOX? is now online! I wrote, directed, and acted in it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzglH...ature=youtu.be my IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2097751/ Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/rachelgrubb add me on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/celiacyanide

12-25-2010, 03:25 AM	#24
BeatrixKiddo I like to write and stuff... Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Gotham City, baby Posts: 4,062	I'm dying to see this movie. Maybe over the weekend. I think Natalie was an interesting choice for this role. __________________ Do not look here...there is nothing to see.

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