A Dance with Dragons by George R. R. Martin

Parametric

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SPOILER THREAD for discussion of A Dance with Dragons, the fifth book of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, released on the 12th of July. You may encounter HIDEOUS UNMARKED SPOILERS for anything up to and including A Dance with Dragons, including the TV series and the tie-in Dunk & Egg short stories.
 

Parametric

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So...

Holy shit. :eek:

Just about every crackpot Targaryen theory either came true or was strongly hinted at. We now have two living Targaryens, plus two suggested Targaryen bastards: Tyrion and Jon. A Targaryen finally invaded Westeros, but not the one everyone was thinking of.

Jon has been stabbed repeatedly and appears dead.

Stannis is also supposedly dead.

The northmen are staggeringly badass. Wyman Manderly killed three Freys and cooked them in pies and laughed as he ate them. Also the north apparently creates badass girls: Alys Karstark, the Manderly kid, and Lyanna Mormont, the She-Bear, to name but three.

Barristan Selmy and Davos Seaworth are vying for the title of nicest guy most in need of a hug.

Cersei was ritually humiliated, and Qyborg-Gregor is going to be her champion in her trial by combat.

Poor Theon has won back my sympathy by dint of being wretchedly abused and traumatised.

Did I miss anything?
 

BunnyMaz

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Some thoughts.

I do not trust this Karstark bastard's claim to having killed Stannis. Undoubtedly, Stannis was a complete idiot, but I would not have expected even an ignoble death of his to happen off-page. Not to mention the bastard seems a tricksy sort of fellow. I do hate his wife with a burning passion though, so would quite like to see her brought low.

I do not believe that Jon is dead. But if he is, I expect an opening chapter in the next book to be from Snow/Ghost's POV. Wildly unsupported fan wankery follows! All the Starks die. Except maybe Sansa. All are reborn wargily into their wolves. Except Sansa who is too much of a pussy to be a warg. Stark direwolf pack grows into the hundreds and transforms the North into an uninhabited waste, slaying any Southron men that dare set foot near there. Children of the forest, giants, wildlings and wargs retake the North in their stead. The wall falls when whoever tries to replace Jon finds the wildlings are a- less happy to meekly fall before some arsehole who thinks they're savages and b- much harder to fend off when on both sides of the wall.

I totally get where people are getting the Jon-is-dragon thing. We know nothing of his mother, but we do know his aunt was raped and butchered by the last Targaryen king. But whenceforth this theory of Tyrion-is-Targaryen? We know for a fact that Tyrion's father was the late Tywin Lannister and his mother was the same mother shared by Cersei and Jaime.

Three headed dragon may need a rethink. We have two definite heads- Dany and her suddenly reappeared brother. If Snow is one, he definitely isn't dead, but if he is dead then I don't see how Tyrion can be one. He knows a shit-ton about dragons for sure, but I don't see how he has any more dragonsblood in him than any other blonde-ish noble in Westeros. I absolutely do not want any of the Greyjoys or other Ironborn getting a dragon. I hope Dany laughs in pirateface pork-scratching-hand's face when he comes to her to try and take her for his own.

I slightly mislike where ADWD is headed. A major player (previously thought dead Targaryen prince whose name I have forgotten) turns up in the latter half of the game, just as the only current pretender to Tommen's throne apparently dies. I don't like having my many books worth of theorising made worthless by deus ex machina, so I dearly hope that isn't what this new lad will turn out to be.

Cyborg Gregor! Undead like Mrs Ned whose name I have also temporarily forgotten? Headless and undead, with his skull actually really for real being sent to the Dornish?

I wanted more Sam! Poor, poor scared Sam Tarly. How is he?

Also, Children of the forest still live! People turned into tree-root zombies in totally creepy ways!

Theon totally had his genitals flayed and cut off as well as fingers and toes. They never said it out loud, but he blatantly did.
 
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BunnyMaz

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Another thought.

Has anyone else noticed how MESSILY everyone in the books eats? I mean, everyone from the lowest peasant to vain Queen Cersei is described at some point as eating meat in such a way that liquid fat and blood drips down their chins. Even fruit gets sprayed across their faces. Every time we have a scene where some nobles are gathering to discuss issues of political intrigue and they decide to have a working lunch, I have this image of them doing it all covered in grease and gravy and blood. I dread to think how they look after their apparently semi-regular breakfasts of porridge.

Can you imagine what would happen if you gave them spag bol for dinner?
 

Emerson

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I loved the book.

Best thing in it was Wyman Manderly and his Frey pies.
 

MkMoore

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Manderly was awesome! I laughed so hard...

As far as JON....It doesn't make ANY sense for him to be dead. There are just too many unfulfilled promises. If GRRM has just killed him off to MESS with us, then I will lose most of my respect for him. He either has to live through it or be revived.

I wouldn't necessarily count on Aegon for a dragon. He's a wild card at the moment.

Not sure how Tyrion could be a Targaryen (some theory I've missed?), but I've always thought it would be badass if he got a dragon. I totally called him joining up with Dany. I'm annoyed he never actually got there, since he could have completely fixed everything she screwed up.

I have to wonder, though, what was the point of Quentyn Martell? A whole plotline just to end with death by dragonfire?
 

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The fans have been theorising for years that Tyrion is the bastard son of Aerys Targaryen and thus one of the three heads of the dragon. As I understand it, the evidence is:

(1) Tyrion is obsessed with dragons and often dreams about them;
(2) Tyrion is often referred to as a bastard, such as his frequent refrain that "all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes"; and
(3) it would be awesome.

In the latest book Barristan confirmed that Aerys was interested in Tyrion's mother, Joanna Lannister, taking "liberties" at her wedding. It's not proof, but I think it's a strong hint that one of the fandom's favourite theories may in future be confirmed.
 

BunnyMaz

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In the latest book Barristan confirmed that Aerys was interested in Tyrion's mother, Joanna Lannister, taking "liberties" at her wedding.

Problem there is, Tyriom is the youngest child. That would make a better argument for Jaime and Cersei, depending on how soon after the marriage they were born, than for Tyrion.
 

Parametric

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Problem there is, Tyriom is the youngest child. That would make a better argument for Jaime and Cersei, depending on how soon after the marriage they were born, than for Tyrion.

Oh, I know. I'm not suggesting that Aerys slept with Joanna on her wedding night - that would have been a scandal of apocalyptic proportions. I just think that after Barristan's story, it's a lot more likely that Aerys was involved with Joanna in some way, possibly leading to Tyrion. It's not a rock-solid theory at the moment, but I could definitely see the series going that way.
 

dragonjax

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Part of the problem with reading ADWD for long nights this week is that I clearly missed some big things. Case in point: Frey pie. DAMN IT. I'd say I need to reread, but no. No!

The Tyrion-as-Targaryen possibility is AWESOME. Oh MAN. That would be fabulous.

Here's the thing, though: if that's the case, the dragon would then have four heads: Dany, Aegon, Tyrion...and Jon. Because Jon has to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Not a rape. A secret love. And when Lyanna lay dying, she got her brother Ned to swear to raise Jon as his own bastard, to protect him from the wrath of King Robert, who would have slaughtered baby Jon. And we're going to witness this a la Super Bran, who now has the spiffy ability to see the past. It's gonna ROCK!!!

So yeah - the dragon would have four heads. Which we can't have. I'm thinking that Aegon won't be long for Westeros. He's too new to the series, and throws everything off. He's also, clearly, perfect, as per the Spider: he sounds like the ultimate Gary Stu. (Or maybe that's a Targaryen thing; there are times when Dany is borderline Mary Sue.)

And OMG. Jon is SO not dead. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. But PLEASE don't bring him back from the dead a la Gregor/Robert Strong. Or Berric. Or Catelyn. Jon deserves more than that. (But then, Ned deserved more than getting his head chopped off in book one.)

Coldhands has to be Benjen. Right?

And goodbye, Kevan and Pyrelle. Dude. Just...dude.
 

Parametric

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My secret theory is that Aegon represents the classic fantasy hero. He's the secret heir to the throne, raised in exile by loyal retainers, trained to be a king - he's basically Garion from the Belgariad. And he's going to be eaten alive. :D
 

jgold

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Yeah. Jon can't be dead. That white dragon was just made for him.

So, about the epilogue... which I loved. So nice to get a clue about Varys' motivation after all this time. And I can't help but wonder if Varys is in service to the same temple where Arya's been?

I agree that Aegon is going to die a horrible freaking death.
 

Parametric

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I don't think Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys. Tywin would have killed him.

I'm not so sure he would have cold-bloodedly murdered the infant son of his beloved wife. We do know that Tywin visited some serious wrath on Aerys, slaughtering his entire family and brutally sacking his city. Moreover, we know one major reason Tywin was so pissed off was that Aerys raised Jaime to the Kingsguard, deliberately leaving Tywin with only Tyrion as his heir... which would be an insult on a whole new level if Aerys had fathered Tyrion himself. I'm not a hundred percent wedded to the theory, but I do find it increasingly plausible.
 

Parametric

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Really? I thought it was a nod to the droit du seigneur:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

I don't think so. We know from the Barristan Selmy scene in A Dance with Dragons that the droit du seigneur had been abolished prior to the wedding of Tywin and Joanna Lannister. We also know from A Storm of Swords that during the bedding the newlyweds are basically carried upstairs by all the guests, so it wouldn't be possible to sleep with the bride on her wedding night without everybody knowing about it. That's why I'm saying that Aerys can't have slept with Joanna on her wedding night - people would have known, it would have been illegal, and there would have been a scandal. None of the above happened.
 
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MkMoore

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And OMG. Jon is SO not dead. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. But PLEASE don't bring him back from the dead a la Gregor/Robert Strong. Or Berric. Or Catelyn. Jon deserves more than that. (But then, Ned deserved more than getting his head chopped off in book one.)

Coldhands has to be Benjen. Right?


Coldhands is probably Benjen. He kept his face covered while he was with Bran, and I always thought it was weird that he just "vanished."

If Jon is alive (or is reborn), then he's probably Azor Ahai. I was kind of mad when I finished the book, but I'm pretty much convinced this is where he's heading now. If he really is dead, I'm going to be furious.
 

thothguard51

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Very few characters in this series are really dead it seems. They keep popping back up in one way or another...
 

TCnKC

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I felt like it was hinted at that Jon was Azor Ahai well before his final scene in ADWD. IMO, Stannis was always just a red herring.

And wow, that was a great scene at the end.
 

NoGuessing

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Does anyone else think AFFC and ADWD could have been one book? I also don't believe Martin can finish this in two books unless people get moving quick smart.

Ser Barristan was the star of the book for me.
 

TCnKC

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Does anyone else think AFFC and ADWD could have been one book? I also don't believe Martin can finish this in two books unless people get moving quick smart.

Ser Barristan was the star of the book for me.


AFFC & ADWD definitely could've been structured better. I think even Martin himself would admit that. The first 300-400 pages of ADWD were basically just rehashing events of AFFC in different character POVs.

With that said, ADWD was still a much better read than AFFC IMO. There's so many exciting things set up for the next book.