Is ", then" wrong?

Karen Landis

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Hi –

I'm having a battle with my computer.

"I gazed at him, then put on my coat."

Is this wrong? I use ", then" a lot, and my computer wants me to say, and then. I understand that "then" has no connecting power, but when it introduces a phrase that isn't a complete sentence, is it wrong?

Help! I think my computer is winning.

Thanks,
Karen
 

veronie

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I suppose your computer is seeing "then" as a conjunctive adverb and is thinking it needs to have a true conjunction before it, which is why it wants you to add "and."

But I really don't see why you can't use it the way you have it with the comma.
 
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I would have said and then was grammatically incorrect.

'And' is simultaneous and 'then' is sequential. You can't do A at the same time as B, while also doing first A then B.

Probably not explaining myself very well, but I hope someone understands what I'm driving at!
 

Duncable

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I agree with SP, though I probably couldn't explain it any better.

I pretty much stopped paying attention to grammar checkers a long time ago. Most of the time they want me to change something, it almost seems like they're reading the sentence or phrase wrong, and if I make the change, it changes the entire meaning of the passage. I don't turn them off, because they do catch real mistakes sometimes. I've just learned what suggestions to tune out over the years.

ETA: To maybe elaborate on SP's point: I either gaze at him and put on the coat at the same time; or, I gaze at him, then put on the coat. Not both.
 
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ETA: To maybe elaborate on SP's point: I either gaze at him and put on the coat at the same time; or, I gaze at him, then put on the coat. Not both.
Perfect example. Yes; this is exactly what I meant. :)
 

GreenEpic

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"I gazed at him, then put on my coat."

Computers cannot be trusted all the time! "and then" and ", then" are the same exact thing. Everyone is right in saying it is your personal preference.

Both ways are are using the adverb "then" as a way of showing one action following another action.
 
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Computers cannot be trusted all the time! "and then" and ", then" are the same exact thing. Everyone is right in saying it is your personal preference.

Both ways are are using the adverb "then" as a way of showing one action following another action.
No they're not. Really. They just aren't.
 

GreenEpic

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Well, it's not an achademic paper, so there is no need for pure grammatical correctness.

Technically, ", then" is a comma splice. The comma is trying to hold together 2 complete sentences.

"Then" is a conjunction, but not a coordinating conjunction that can connect 2 complete sentences. So yes, it needs the coordinating conjunction "and" to make the sentence grammatically correct.

But IMO, the casual reader will not see a problem with ", then" and "and then" because the meaning is the same.
 
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Honestly, the meaning is not the same.

", then" means pause, then.

"and then" is grammatically incorrect because you cannot do something simultaneously and sequentially at the same time.
 

GreenEpic

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"And" has quite a few uses. One is to suggest that one event is chronologically sequential to another. "I went to the bank and waited in line."

But in the matter above, "and" is acting as a coordinating conjunction--meaning its purpose is to seperate 2 complete sentences.

I'm confused how a comma means "pause."

Grammatically, ", then" is a comma splice. It's a rare tricky situation where a coordinating conjunction "and" does not need to follow a comma.

To be more technical: "I gazed at him and then I put on my coat." A subject is needed for the second part. Otherwise, the "then" needs to be ommited. "I gazed at him and put on my coat."
 

JSDR

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I use this when I question it, because to me, the examples are easier to understand.
 

caromora

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Here's a good resource that explains a bit: http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conjunctions.htm. (Check "The Case of Then and Than.")

That said, usage of "then" is evolving. Using it as a coordinating conjunction is becoming more common. If you check, you'll find it used that way in many published books nowadays.

A book packager I used to edit for even asked us not to flag "and then" or ", then" anymore. Most style guides I've seen or worked with will allow it.
 

TheIT

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For more of the "then" vs. "and then" wars, take a look at the original "Learn Writing with Uncle Jim" thread in the Novels section. :D

Be careful of MS Word's grammar checker. Sometimes it can't parse sentences properly so it offers incorrect suggestions. I turn off "check grammar while you type" and periodically run a spelling/grammar check, then think about whether or not to accept any suggested change.
 

seun

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About a year ago, an American publisher wanted me to change my uses of ..., then to ...and then after they read a partial sub but before they read the full.

I did change them for that submission, figuring it could end up worth it. They rejected the ms and I went back to the original way of writing.

So, the lesson is...what SP said.
 

Rise2theTop

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I have dealt with this very thing in the past. My editor explained it to me this way:
Use 'and' when the actions are simultaneous. Use ',then' when the action immediately follows. Use 'and then' when you want to insert a little time between actions.

By using this formula, I'm able to portray action the way I see it in my head. I can speed up or slow the actions depending on whether or not I want the reader to linger a little.

I probably wouldn't want to them to linger on putting on a coat, so I'd use ',then.'

If the scene is hurried or something, I'd use the 'and' or 'as I' put on my coat.

But, if I wanted them to hang onto the moment a bit longer, maybe to build suspense about the coat itself or why it's being put on or taken off, LOL, I'd use 'and then'.

Just my two cents.
Rise


 
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Fallen

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I gazed at him, then put my coat on.
I gazed at him and then put my coat on.

The comma suggests a missing 'and' to me.

The computer then insists on an 'and' after the comma probably because it's reading it wrongly as a comma splice, not as the intended sequence:

I gazed at him, and then put on my coat.

v sequence:

I gazed at him and then put on my coat / I gazed at him, then put on my coat.
 
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jaksen

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I write 'then' by itself all the time. In fact, I often overuse it and have to screen a bunch of them out.

Read it aloud. If it sounds okay, then leave it in.

YOU are in charge of your own writing, btw.
 

thebloodfiend

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I'm kind of a grammar nazi so I would go with "then" rather than "and then". I suppose it's not that serious, but when I see "and then" it bothers me. Not as much as "that" for "who" and "that" for "which", but it's still kind of annoying.

As long as you know their purpose and aren't misusing them out of ignorance, I guess it's okay. Just don't go all the way out there into Cormac McCarthy land, when you're also ignoring all punctuation marks, too. And then you start typing in dialect as well. That would truly set me off. But it doesn't bother other people, so who am I to say?
 

SRHowen

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Then can be a filler word. You can often take it out and make the writing stronger.

"I gazed at him, then put on my coat."

I gazed at him before i put on my coat. Creates a more exact picture.