History, Race, and Cyberpunk derivatives

I was under the assumption that these stories were considered fantasy? The aesthetics hail from a specific period, but it doesn't sound like the actual background is that period, since none of the events are things that have happened, right?

Alternate history doesn't have to have racism and slavery. It can certainly address those ideas, but I don't think anyone should feel obligated to include racism in a story that isn't based in society as it is.

I don't know much about the genre, so feel free to correct any misconceptions I may have.

Yeah, technically it's your world and you can build it however you like. But I kind of like accurate historical details in alternative history. Maybe you could twist real history in some way? Do something interesting with it to make it like our history, but with a few key differences in the way things played out.

Becca C. said:

Yeah, technically it's your world and you can build it however you like. But I kind of like accurate historical details in alternative history. Maybe you could twist real history in some way? Do something interesting with it to make it like our history, but with a few key differences in the way things played out.

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I think the problem with this is there's no such thing as "a few key differences" as far as history is concerned. One small difference effectively alters the entire timeline.

Well, not a problem, but it's a hefty task as far as world building is concerned.

Well, England outlawed slavery in 1833, so you could set your story in England. Or you could set it out west sometime after 1820, as long as you stayed above the Mason-Dixon line. That way you'd never have to deal with the issue of slavery, except in passing.

As for racism, itself, it depends on your story and the setting. But I think you could make it as much or as little an issue as you wish, as long as you make it plausible. (I actually wonder if your character would have more issues with being a woman in this time period. Strict gender roles were also pretty huge back then.)

Okay there were slaves in the Northern states, just not as many. And a lot of abolitionists were keen on ending slavery and sending the free slaves to either Haiti, "a naturally black country" or back to Africa most likely Liberia specifically.

There were free blacks throughout the U.S. from the founding of the nation all the way through the Civil War in the North and the South. So you could make your character a free black. In fact, your character could own a slave as well. Free blacks would save their money and then buy their relatives. But they wouldn't make their relatives free because that would make it easier for the slave catchers to take back their relatives and return them to slavery. Also there were free blacks who owned slaves like white people of the time owned slaves.

I think ignoring or writing out the slavery/discrimination aspect would be a mistake. It would add depth to your story. If I were to read this story and there wasn't a hint of discrimination or slavery without good cause I would definitely be frustrated.

Here are some suggestions if you don't want to deal with the slavery/discrimination aspects of this particular time period.

1. The founding fathers were considering on abolishing slavery at one point. I think, it's late and the founding of the nation isn't my strong subject.

2. Slavery was actually petering out as an institution throughout the U.S. until the invention of the cotton gin which made it easier to separate the seeds from the cotton and therefore needing more slaves because they could now grow huge fields of cotton. So you could change history where either the cotton gin was not invented or it was invented after slavery naturally ended and then formally abolished. Although you still might have discrimination but then there is always discrimination.

I would not change the race of your character.

I would have a chat with anyone of race that you know and ask them about their experiences of racism (if they have any - though I bet most of them will as it is not yet gone from the world...). Oral resources are invaluable in getting a proper feel for how such things feel. Though slavery might not be present in your world (whether because you have not put it in or because of legal issues) there will still be those who feel that blacks are lesser creatures. Racism is quite a strong, nasty root in human psychology (and it does go both ways as I have learnt from a friends experiences of his family).

And in England, even before the abolition, there was still a concept of freedom from slavery for any who set foot on English soil. This was why none of the slave ships disembarked at English ports... though they stopped there, they never unloaded.

There's a strong argument that it's good to have stories where the MC just happens to be black/disabled/gay/trans/etc but in which the story isn't about that.

So, I say; tweak your history to eradicate slavery, but do it in such a a way that it's a byproduct of some other broadbrush change. E.g. perhaps British Abolitionists freed the slaves early, or perhaps the British won the first round of the American War of Independence by offering freedom to rebellious slaves, or the other way around.

Your character could be Canadian; the descendent of a former slave who made the run North to escape. Making the decision to trek south, even knowing the sort of atmosphere that awaits her, because it's the only way to accomplish what she needs to do gives you not only a character willing to make tough decisions, but it also gives you an enduring thread of danger throughout the story itself.

Don't ignore the racism/slavery aspect. Use it.

You don't have to ignore racism/discrimination, but it doesn't have to be your focus either. I don't think anyone will blame you if not every scene is fraught with tension stemming from your character's race. But it might stand out if it were entirely absent, particularly in an alternate history like dieselpunk.

Take, for instance, Snow Crash. The MC is black and Korean. This isn't too much of an issue until he runs into a group of white supremacists. Who, of course, hassle him even though he has better things to do. But the book doesn't revolve around Hiro's race, but it doesn't entirely ignore it either.

My ultimately suggestion: a painful amount of research. Look into women of color and their efforts during WWII (since I think you mentions this would be in the 1940's), their roles in industry, etc. Try to zero in on things that might impact your character the most and always keep your story world in the back of your mind. You'll figure it out.

Am I making sense? (And, btw - this idea sounds awesome. Please please please please don't make her white.)

areteus said:

I would have a chat with anyone of race that you know and ask them about their experiences of racism (if they have any - though I bet most of them will as it is not yet gone from the world...). Oral resources are invaluable in getting a proper feel for how such things feel. Though slavery might not be present in your world (whether because you have not put it in or because of legal issues) there will still be those who feel that blacks are lesser creatures. Racism is quite a strong, nasty root in human psychology (and it does go both ways as I have learnt from a friends experiences of his family).

And in England, even before the abolition, there was still a concept of freedom from slavery for any who set foot on English soil. This was why none of the slave ships disembarked at English ports... though they stopped there, they never unloaded.

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I definitely lol'd at the bold. Also the last part isnt correct. Read about The York Talbot Slavery Opinion.

Island in the Sea of Time series by S.M. Stirling has a strong, black, lesbian woman as the main character. While in the story she does have to deal with being the only black person in a command position, she is in the coast guard, and deal with people who think lesbians should just be grateful for what they are given. It doesn't evolve around her being black or lesbian.

I suggest reading it for research. The books are about the island of Nantucket getting sent back in time to the year 1250 BC.

missesdash said:

Alternate history doesn't have to have racism and slavery. It can certainly address those ideas, but I don't think anyone should feel obligated to include racism in a story that isn't based in society as it is.

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While this is true, I think rewriting American history, for example, so it's 19th century America except with steampunk and no racism is... problematic. I mean, okay, you are not obligated to be either historically accurate or socially aware so that non-white people can happily cavort across your fantasy landscape without difficulty, but a lot of readers will roll their eyes hard. (Especially if your fantasy America has a significant number of people of African descent... if there was no slavery, where did they come from?)

areteus said:

I would have a chat with anyone of race that you know and ask them about their experiences of racism (if they have any - though I bet most of them will as it is not yet gone from the world...).

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I hope it's a close friend you ask this of, and not just anyone you happen to know of a different race whom you are going to ask "Hey, please educate White McWhitePerson about race issues so I can write my book with Authenticity! 'Cause I consulted with a real live POC!"

Amadan said:

While this is true, I think rewriting American history, for example, so it's 19th century America except with steampunk and no racism is... problematic. I mean, okay, you are not obligated to be either historically accurate or socially aware so that non-white people can happily cavort across your fantasy landscape without difficulty, but a lot of readers will roll their eyes hard. (Especially if your fantasy America has a significant number of people of African descent... if there was no slavery, where did they come from?)

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I really think I misunderstand the genre, I thought introducing steam punk made it fantasy to the point where it wasn't really America? I had no idea people maintain other elements and build on our world. I do think there's a fine line. But as a POC I've definitely tired of skin color as a plot device. Like the OP said. Someone's going to roll their eyes, no matter what direction she goes is.

But, a lot of the people I know who are into steampunk are super into social justice so maybe your way would appeal to the audience more.

Steampunk isn't usually a strict fantasy, but more an alternate history that pushes the invention of the steam engine and ensuing technology up. It often centers around the Victorian era (England and Europe) such as the time HG Wells and his time machine would have existed if the machine had been built.

It's more a separate time line developing off a split in the actual history, and since that split occurs after the historical onset of slavery in the US (which began before the US was the US, only as "indentured servitude") if you're setting a Steampunk in the US, then it's not likely going to be a setting devoid of race issues.

I recently went to a Steampunk convention where we had a very long discussion/debate about race and gender issues in Steampunk. One of the more frustrating things people pointed out was how often the sexism and racism of the period is totally ignored, how people just write the version of Victorian London (as an example) that they would like to see, nicely sidestepping any unpleasant issues that existed at the time, say that whole little colonisation thing . It's your story, and you are welcome to address race as an issue or not. But know there is an audience hungry for Steampunk that addresses that issue.

I say...just write the story. Worry about everything else later. I love that your main character is black (not just because I'm black) but because this is a really good idea and there needs to be more POCs leads in YA fiction.

So...write the story. Get a feel for your main character as a person, and most importantly, write whatever you comfortable with. Worry about the rest later.

Good luck and if you ever need a beta in the future...

Side question -- I can't really stand historical fantasy but I love clockwork stuff. What's it called when you have steampunk tech in a world that doesn't have our history as I don't really care to read fantasy with racism and sexism in it. Sorry to say, but I have a very modern mind and I'm sick of "gritty" fantasy in the style of GRRM.

And, speaking as someone who's also black, I'm really tired of the "my entire personality is based on being a POC/gay/trans/disabled" character. I'd take into account that, yeah, racism is probably going to exist, and has existed, in the US for a helluva a long time, but it doesn't need to be the main focus of your story. When authors devote (out of the blue) long sections to preaching against the evils of slut shaming, racism, and sexism, I tend to roll my eyes. I like reading stories, not counseling pamphlets.

I know this is kinda a cliche example, but I just rewatched Wild Wild West on TV the other week, and I think that movie handled the race issue in steampunk reeeally well. They touch on it briefly here and there, but it never overshadows the plot -- it's just a subtext to add more tension to the main plot. Not sure if that's helpful, but I'd suggest watching it for ideas!

thebloodfiend - it's called Steampunk . Steampunk can be alternate history, but it can also be set in a totally different world.

Also I don't think it's necessary to go into the racism and sexism of the time if the author doesn't want to. But my point is, it seems most authors of Steampunk don't want to. So there is a craving out there for some Steampunk that is more than just wish fulfillment. That deals with issues too. Now that's not saying you have to write it, I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing in the community is all.

Amadan said:

While this is true, I think rewriting American history, for example, so it's 19th century America except with steampunk and no racism is... problematic. I mean, okay, you are not obligated to be either historically accurate or socially aware so that non-white people can happily cavort across your fantasy landscape without difficulty, but a lot of readers will roll their eyes hard. (Especially if your fantasy America has a significant number of people of African descent... if there was no slavery, where did they come from?)

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If, however, you're thinking that too much 'historical accuracy or social awareness' will hijack your adventure story, you could dial it back a little. End slavery sooner than really happened, maybe they did include 'liberty for all' in the Constitution? There would still be a historical record of slavery, people might still mention it, but it wouldn't be so raw. People in the 1940's would be several generations away from slavery.
There could still be racism, and that and sexism would be problems for your MC.
As to where the people of African descent came from: the same place (so to speak) that the Irish and the Italians and all those other members of the teeming multitude of immigrants came from. Some were indentured workers, some heard stories and followed the money, others heard stories and followed their dreams. I imagine that if not for the fear of being enslaved, a passage to America would be as much an option to a person in Africa as it was to a person in Europe.