Violence in middle grade fiction--how much is too much?

rwm4768

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I was wondering if I could get any opinions on what is too much violence for an upper middle grade audience (middle school age). I am currently working on a series in which my main character is thirteen years old. Someone dies as a result of violence in the first book. The main character is tortured in the second. And he inadvertently causes someone's death in the third. By the third, though, he's probably old enough that it's starting to cross over to Young Adult.

I was just wondering. Does this sound like too much?
 

Polenth

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That doesn't sound like a problem, as long as you handle it in a suitable way for middle grade. Violence tends to be less graphically described the younger you go. It doesn't mean the violence isn't there.
 

Amarie

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The torture aspect kind of gets to me. A lot of MG has adults threatening physical violence to kids, but actually carrying it out in a methodical, deliberate way would be something hard to write at an MG level. I still get squeamish thinking about Dolores Umbridge in the Harry Potter series. Maybe it's because I'm an adult and kids wouldn't be as upset, but I hated the part where she was deliberately hurting children.
 

Ferret

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I agree with Amarie--the torture scene could get pretty intense. There have been other discussion about MG MC killing people here, and that's something that has to be handled carefully, too.

Is your series fantasy? You can usually get away with a little more in fantasy.

Have you compared your series to other MG series with violence, like Percy Jackson?
 

rwm4768

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My series is fantasy, and the torture scene doesn't involve any graphic images (like fingernails getting pulled off or stuff like that). It is more a description of the pain he is going through.

I still worry I'm bringing it in too soon, though. Then again, my main character is 14 years old at the time it takes place. That's the same age Harry Potter is when the cruciatus curse is introduced.
 

Morrell

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Fingernails ... urgh. Your post is too graphic for me, which probably means I am not qualified to answer this question. ;)
 

DavidBrett

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From reading their blogs, it seems primary kids LOVE the books of Barry Hutchison and Darren Shan, the latter of which is not only violent, but scary AND ridiculously gory (especially the Demonata series). You just have to be careful, practise subtly when it comes to violent scenes, and constantly ask yourself "Would I be willing to read this to my OWN children when they reach the target audience?"
 

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For MG kids they are solidifying their own identity, experiencing the physical and psychological changes of puberty, taking on new responsibilities all within the boundaries of their family, friends and neighborhood.

Yes, your character needs to grow and change during the course of the book, but these changes are on the inside.

Middle grade readers are beginning to learn who they are, what they think. Their books need to mirror their personal experience.

The age of the main character and length of the manuscript are still a rough guide in determining the audience (middle grade manuscripts tend to be 100 pages or shorter, with young adult books being longer, though this is not always the case), but the kind of conflict the characters encounter is a better measuring stick.

The story, rather than the character's age, delineates the audience, as in Carolyn Coman's What Jamie Saw (a 1996 Newbery Honor Book).

The book features a nine-year-old protagonist, but the subject of domestic abuse prompted the publisher to give it an age range of ten and up.

As an author, it's your job to decide who you want to reach with your book -- elementary kids, junior high or high school -- and then create characters and conflicts accordingly.

Regardless of genre -- science fiction, mystery, historical or contemporary -- if your characters are learning about themselves and the world in the same way as your readers, your audience will find you.
 

Britwriter

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Fingernails ... urgh. Your post is too graphic for me, which probably means I am not qualified to answer this question. ;)

Me too. My kids are middle grade age, and have read a lot of fantasy books with violence. But I have to say that the torture in HP bothered them, as it did me. That's the part I think you have to consider and handle very carefully.
 

Ellielle

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The dying from violence and death caused by the MC are probably okay, as long as they are handled in an age appropriate manner. I have seen them before in MG.The torture is the one I'd be most worried about. I was 13 (so, even a little older than an average MG reader--but some folks might argue that by the fifth book, HP was slipping into YA territory anyway) when Order of the Pheonix came out, and I didn't like it all that much, and part of that was because Umbridge just creeped the heck out of me. And I thought I liked violence in books, too. I don't know if it was just Umbridge/that situation in particular, and torture done differently wouldn't have bothered me, or if there's actually a pretty big difference between violence and torture. I suspect it's the latter. Torture is all about causing pain, and as much of it as possible. Of course, pain is an element of violence too, but violence isn't necessarily focused solely on that. So I think it's easier to gloss over the really disturbing parts of violence.
 

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I tend to agree with the others about torture. Death itself is okay if it's handled correctly, that is not going overboard on the blood and guts for kids. Personally I feel torture belongs in adult fiction, not children's. My son is middle school aged and I wouldn't want him reading anything remotely like that. If it has to be a part of the story maybe minimalise it so that young readers aren't aware of the full extent of what has happened.
 

Smish

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I don't know. I may disagree a bit with everyone else. Kids aren't as squeamish as adults, for one thing. For another, aren't we supposed to be bothered by torture? It's the appropriate response and I'm of the opinion that sheltering kids causes more harm than good.

And anyway, after reading The Monstrumologist, I'm pretty much of the opinion that almost anything goes when it comes to violence and gore in MG.

And for realistic MG fiction, Tangerine is a great example of how far one can go when it comes to violence.

(As an aside, the book that gave me nightmares as a kid was My Brother Sam is Dead.)
 

Polenth

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I can understand not everyone wants to read about torture, but I think it's important not to assume your personal preference is the way things are. Middle grade books do have violence, death and torture in them. So the answer to whether it's publishable is yes, because such things appear in books on the shelves.
 

little_e

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The question, IMO, is less what the kids can handle as what the parents will approve of. When I was in... 6th grade, I think it was? my mother refused to let me go on a class field trip to the Holocaust museum because she thought it would be too much for me to handle. Obviously the rest of my class seemed to have pulled through without too much permanent damage, and all of the other parents were fine with it. But publishers will likely have some idea of what they will and won't accept (based on assumptions about parents) and that's what I'd concentrate on.

Also, just a note of caution--just because J. K. Rowling did XYZ doesn't mean any of us get to do that. An established, extremely well-paying author will probably be afforded more leeway than a newbie.
 

Smish

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The question, IMO, is less what the kids can handle as what the parents will approve of. When I was in... 6th grade, I think it was? my mother refused to let me go on a class field trip to the Holocaust museum because she thought it would be too much for me to handle. Obviously the rest of my class seemed to have pulled through without too much permanent damage, and all of the other parents were fine with it. But publishers will likely have some idea of what they will and won't accept (based on assumptions about parents) and that's what I'd concentrate on.

Also, just a note of caution--just because J. K. Rowling did XYZ doesn't mean any of us get to do that. An established, extremely well-paying author will probably be afforded more leeway than a newbie.

If you write for the parents instead of the kids, you're doing your books a disservice. Parents may buy the books, but it's the kids who read them -- and tell their friends about them -- and make them bestsellers.
 

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If you write for the parents instead of the kids, you're doing your books a disservice. Parents may buy the books, but it's the kids who read them -- and tell their friends about them -- and make them bestsellers.

I still think you need to pay attention to what is considered appropriate for each age group. If you fall outside what is viewed as acceptable for an age range, you are limiting yourself immediately in terms of publication.

From what I have ever understood and experienced, publishers are very sensitive to what librarians and parents view as appropriate, and this will influence how easily you can get a book published. If parents are not going to happily pay the cash to buy a book because they view it as unsuitable, kids aren't going to get to read it and recommend it to friends.

I'm not saying that you can never get published if you move beyond the normal ranges of acceptability, but you are going to narrow your chances. Unless of course you become a trail blazer by doing something new. ;)

I do think, though, that if you are going to write about something potentially controversial you might want to think about how essential it is to the plot, and if you do decide to go ahead, look at examples of how it is used in other books for the age group. And, don't be surprised if it makes your journey to publication more challenging.
 

Ferret

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The parents, librarians, etc matter, too. If you write a middle grade book with a lot of swearing, for example, kids might like it, but I don't know that it will ever reach them. A really graphic torture scene might be a problem, too--and I think a lot of people think graphic when they hear torture--but the original poster said that wouldn't be the case.

Few things are completely off limits, so mostly it just depends on how it's done. If the violence is necessary for the plot and it's handled well, I think it should be fine. As Polenth has pointed out, some MG books do have a lot of violence. And I don't think we need to shield kids from all things dark and nasty.

MG writers should write novels that will entertain children, first and foremost. Still, I think it would be a mistake to completely ignore what's considered appropriate in MG fiction.
 

Smish

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Still, I think it would be a mistake to completely ignore what's considered appropriate in MG fiction.

That's good advice, of course. And I'd have to re-read the thread in it's entirety to say for sure, but I don't recall anyone saying otherwise.

Sure, books need to be appropriate. But a torture scene is not automatically inappropriate (and there are MG books - other than Harry Potter - that contain them).

The usual advice applies here, of course. Read 100 current MG novels. Then read 100 more. So forth and so on.
 
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