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Old 03-21-2012, 05:19 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
We can't know what was in his mind. I think it more likely that his perception of himself as the "protector" of the neighborhood against evil people, esp black men, made him feel he was empowered to stop and control anyone he believed suspicious. If the suspect put up any resistance or refused to submit, deadly force was an allowable option.

A subtle distinction, though, and certainly one that is irrelevant to the victim.

It's interesting to note that since Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged, he currently has the legal right to carry a gun and continue his "neighborhood watch" activities if he wishes to.

Yeah, I like your theory better than my original idea.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:53 AM   #202
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Research done by a fellow AW'ers husband has been getting some attention in this case today -
Quote:
"The mere act of holding a gun makes it more likely that you will perceive an object as a gun," said James Brockmole, associate professor of psychology at the University of Notre Dame and co-author of an upcoming paper on that phenomenon.
also:
Quote:
Whether that effect - holding a gun making someone more likely to "see" a gun - played any role in Sanford is impossible to say. But the proliferation of right-to-carry and concealed-carry gun laws makes that mistake more likely, say scientists. It might not even be necessary to have the gun in one's hand.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82J1BU20120320
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:05 AM   #203
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That's interesting, raburrell!

But in this case, I think Zimmerman made all of that up (in a very calculated way, then). Trayvon wasn't pulling Skittles out of his waistband. He was on the phone with his girlfriend when Zimmerman was following him until the physical part ensued and his phone got knocked away. He never approached Zimmerman. He was trying to get away from him.

She did say that Trayvon had ducked onto someone's porch when it started raining hard for a minute. He really may have looked a little suspicious for those moments, until he left.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:55 AM   #204
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On a side note, a little about the Sanford police dept.

Last year, the son of Sanford police Lt. Chris Collison was caught on video assaulting a homeless black man outside a bar, sucker punching him and sending him to the hospital, then punching another man, apparently an acquaintance, although that's not clear. Tape can be viewed here.

The son, Justin Collison is a real prize:
Quote:
Collison was charged in another violent episode three years ago. According to paperwork with the Volusia County Sheriff's Office, he got drunk at a keg party in a pasture near Osteen and opened fire with a rifle on an SUV with three men inside.

One of the men was wounded in the chest from a bullet that passed within one inch of his heart, according to the incident report.

One of the partygoers told a deputy, "Collison bragged all night that his father was Sanford law enforcement and that he could blow anyone's head off and get away with it," according to the incident report.
The cops who respond to the assault of the homeless man did not arrest Collison, nor were any charges brought until the videotape surfaced on Youtube.

An internal investigation absolved the cops involved of any wrongdoing.

One reason:
Quote:
Raimondo made the no-arrest decision after talking to watch commander Lt. Mike Taylor, who also was at the scene. Both men said that was because the man who was knocked out, Sherman Ware, did not give police a sworn statement.
And:
Quote:
After news of what had happened began to buzz around police headquarters, Raimondo told his officers at the next shift change meeting, "I'm not in the business of putting cops' kids in jail unless I absolutely have to," according to two officers at that meeting.
What internal affairs did find, however, was this:
Quote:
The internal affairs report, released Friday, found no wrongdoing by any officer, except by Capt. Coolidge "Jerry" Hargrett. The report criticizes him because, as acting police chief, he answered reporters' questions, saying officers that night clearly violated department policies.

He also disclosed that an internal investigation was under way into why officers behaved as they did.

Those things, the report says, should subject him to possible prosecution.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...e-sanford-cops

Sounds like a truly professional department.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:58 AM   #205
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:09 AM   #206
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One of the officers involved with the Collison beating of a Black guy case was the responding officer in this case, btw (Officer Timothy Smith). I haven't been able to find out if any of the officers were also involved in the earlier shooting.

pdf on the Collison case:

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/docume...lison-Case.pdf

And in the current case:

Quote:
In a police report, Officer Timothy Smith says that, when he arrived at the scene of the shooting, a black male was laying face down on the ground, his hands underneath his body. "I attempted to get a response from the black male, but was met with negative results," the report says.
After speaking with Zimmerman, who had called 911, Smith observed that Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."
Smith wrote that Zimmerman stated, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me." Martin's family insists it was Trayvon Martin who was heard yelling for help.
Three witnesses who were nearby have said it was Martin who was heard screaming for help in the 911 call placed by Zimmerman, Crump said.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/20/ju...teen-shooting/



The police chief is strongly associated with the college where Zimmerman was taking his criminal justice classes, too:

http://www.americantowns.com/fl/sanf...-safety-229127

Seminole State College of Florida Names Bill Lee Director of the Center for Public Safety



Here is one article that talks about Zimmerman attending there:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...nline-petition


Quote:
Little is publicly known about the 28-year-old from Virginia who attended Seminole State College and aspired to become a law-enforcement officer.
But the Sentinel has unearthed new details about the life of the man at the center of this controversy, including an allegation of domestic violence in his past....
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:20 AM   #207
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And here's a bit on the other shooting that is really unbelievable:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1345868.html

Quote:
...But the 2005 killing of a black teenager, Travares McGill, by two white security guards, one the son of a Sanford Police officer, drove city race relations to a modern low, according to some black residents.
Early one summer morning, security guards Patrick Swofford and Bryan Ansley saw McGill dropping off a group of friends in the parking lot of the apartment complex they were hired to guard, according to published reports. They claimed McGill tried to run them down, and both fired, later claiming self-defense. McGill was pronounced dead at the scene. Swofford was a police department volunteer and Ansley is the son of a former veteran of the force.
The pair was arrested and charged, Swofford with manslaughter and Ansley with firing into an occupied vehicle. But a judge later cited lack of evidence and dismissed both cases. According to autopsy reports, McGill suffered fatal gunshot wounds to the back, and it was unclear if the pair was in danger.
“People are outraged because they never recovered from the last shooting, or recovered from the beating a year or so ago with the policeman’s son,” said Turner. “All of these things are escalating and simmering, and it’s going to reach a point where it’s going to explode.”
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:49 AM   #208
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The deeper we go down the memory hole the more likely the possibility becomes the Sanford police department does not serve and protect their African-American citizens.

Any White kid in this country can go to the store and buy a can of iced tea and a bag of candy and not die for it. Can the parents of any Black kid say the same? Not in Sanford, Florida they can't.

Color me so surprised.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:15 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by nighttimer View Post
Any White kid in this country can go to the store and buy a can of iced tea and a bag of candy and not die for it.
If you're saying that white people don't get shot for being white, I'm going to disagree with you. Racism isn't a one way street. There has been plenty of people, and in all likelihood will be plenty more people, who are killed just for being white.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:17 PM   #210
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I have to admit, I have a morbid curiosity as to just how deep this rabbit hole goes. It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens when the feds come in to clean house.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:07 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes Oh Ashes View Post
If you're saying that white people don't get shot for being white, I'm going to disagree with you. Racism isn't a one way street. There has been plenty of people, and in all likelihood will be plenty more people, who are killed just for being white.
Name one.

Because I am saying White people don't get killed for being White by vigilantes who call 911 complaining about the "assholes" that always get away.

Racism isn't a one-way street, but somehow it seems like it's mostly Black males like Travyon Martin, Sean Bell, Oscar Grant, and Amadou Diallo getting run over by law enforcement officials gone wild and wannabee ones.

If you want to get away with murder it helps to murder the right (non-White) people.

Quote:
If you want to kill someone and get away with it, do it during half time of the NBA All-Star game.

Appoint yourself captain of the neighborhood watch. Don't set it up with the national program. The national program won't let you carry a gun or pursue suspects. Do it in a gated development where your black neighbors — 20 percent of the community — are targets of suspicion afraid of leaving their homes. Drive around in an SUV and keep an eye out for suspicious individuals. Look for young black men, the kind you've warned people about, the kind you think "always get away." Monitor the 7-11. Find someone who "looks like he's up to no good, or [is] on drugs, or something," someone "carrying something," someone "looking about."

Call 911.

Describe the suspicious person to the dispatcher, the way you always do, the way you've done at least nine times before. There have been a lot of break-ins in this neighborhood. You've probably spoken to this dispatcher before. You called the police 46 times last year. Say, "He's a black male... He's got a button on his shirt. Late teens." Tell the dispatcher that "something's wrong with him." The dispatcher will tell you that police are on their way. He'll tell you not to follow the kid.

Do it anyway. He's running. Find him. Wrestle with him. Shoot him, once.
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:30 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes Oh Ashes View Post
If you're saying that white people don't get shot for being white, I'm going to disagree with you. Racism isn't a one way street. There has been plenty of people, and in all likelihood will be plenty more people, who are killed just for being white.
They don't tend to get shot by cops or would-be vigilantes for such things as "being white while wearing a hoodie."
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:26 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcomp View Post
They don't tend to get shot by cops or would-be vigilantes for such things as "being white while wearing a hoodie."
Precisely.

There's a big difference between racially motivated crime and socially sanctioned racially motivated crime. Namely, whether society treats it as a crime at all.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:18 PM   #214
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NPR's Corey Dade wrote about having "the talk" with his father about surviving growing up black in America. Here's the advice he received: (Expanded in the article.)

1. Never Leave A Store Without A Shopping Bag

2. Never Loiter Outside, Anywhere

3. Never Go Anywhere Alone

4. Never Talk Back To Police ... And Never, Ever Reach Into Your Pocket

5. Never Doubt Trouble May Strike Anytime, Anywhere

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/21/149060...-greatest-fear
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:43 AM   #215
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Someone pointed out that the police had a dead child in the middle of a gated community, and they didn't ask any of the community members if he was theirs, or if they knew him.

The police assumed Trayvon was an outsider, someone who didn't belong.

Why would they assume that? Perhaps it was because Zimmerman said he didn't recognize the boy...or perhaps it was simply because Trayvon was black. I don't know, but it doesn't seem right--especially not when you consider that Trayvon was listed as a "John Doe" for days, despite the fact that the police had his cellphone. And that cellphone was ringing, too--worried calls from Trayvon's family.

I think the Feds need to do more than look into this case. They need to look into this police department.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:28 AM   #216
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I think the Feds need to do more than look into this case. They need to look into this police department.
Agreed. The police chief seems to be pretty confident that they would find nothing wrong, though, which makes me wonder how delusional he is or how much has already been swept under the rug.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:58 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey View Post
Someone pointed out that the police had a dead child in the middle of a gated community, and they didn't ask any of the community members if he was theirs, or if they knew him.

The police assumed Trayvon was an outsider, someone who didn't belong.

Why would they assume that? Perhaps it was because Zimmerman said he didn't recognize the boy...or perhaps it was simply because Trayvon was black. I don't know, but it doesn't seem right--especially not when you consider that Trayvon was listed as a "John Doe" for days, despite the fact that the police had his cellphone. And that cellphone was ringing, too--worried calls from Trayvon's family.

I think the Feds need to do more than look into this case. They need to look into this police department.

It boggles my mind that we're PAYING these people.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:50 AM   #218
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Tim Wise posted a very good essay about this whole thing.

http://www.timwise.org/2012/03/trayv...ss-in-america/

My favorite bit:

Quote:
After all, we are a society in which research has shown quite conclusively that local newscasts overrepresent blacks as criminals, relative to their actual share of total crime, and overrepresent whites as victims, relative to our share of victimization.

A society in which other studies have shown that these racially-skewed newscasts have a direct relationship to widespread negative perceptions of black people. Indeed, a substantial percentage of anti-black racial hostility can be directly traced to media imagery, even after all other factors are considered.

A society in which the disproportionate incarceration of black males — especially for non-violent drug offenses, which they are no more likely (and often even less likely) than whites to commit — feeds the perception that they are so treated because they are dangerous and must be kept at bay.

A society in which criminality is so associated with blackness that whites literally and almost instantly connect the two things in survey after survey, and study after study, even though we are roughly 5 times as likely to be criminally victimized by another white person as by a black person.

A society in which anti-black racism has been so long ingrained that not only most whites, but also most Latinos and Asian Americans, demonstrate substantial subconscious bias against African Americans in study after study of implicit racial hostility (and even about a third of blacks themselves demonstrate anti-black racism).
While I believe that Zimmerman did act with race in mind, the most important bit is the racism of our nation. This is where we are as a nation and we have to find a way to move past this.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:55 PM   #219
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Well, time for the political pundits to get involved.

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But Mytheos Holt, an associate editor at the Blaze, chided Sharpton "for being too willing to exploit racial controversy" and for dismissing claim of self-defense Zimmerman. Holt went further and criticized Trayvon Martin by insinuating that the slain teen was a troublemaker.
We’re also learning more about Trayvon Martin. According to reporters he had been suspended from school. The International Business Times says Martin’s suspension was due to last for 10 days. But what exactly was he suspended for in the first place? Sources sympathetic to Martin say he was suspended for “excessive tardiness.” However, a quick review of both the local policies for Martin’s school, the Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School, and of the Miami-Dade school district’s district-wide policies, raise some doubts.
Holt went on to enumerate the many infractions which can lead to a student being suspended in that school district — including theft, sexual harassment, vandalism or sex offenses. No reports have suggested that Martin was suspended for anything other than lateness. Holt did not explain in his post why he assumed that these hypothetical infractions were likely.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...f=black-voices
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:02 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Shadow Dragon View Post
Well, time for the political pundits to get involved.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...f=black-voices
Oh God, blaming the victim with made up insinuations. Let's hope this blows up in their faces fast, so this poor kid's family don't have to spend their mourning time defending his memory.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:17 PM   #221
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Well, time for the political pundits to get involved.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...f=black-voices
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Originally Posted by RichardGarfinkle View Post
Oh God, blaming the victim with made up insinuations. Let's hope this blows up in their faces fast, so this poor kid's family don't have to spend their mourning time defending his memory.
Blaming the victim is despicable.

More pertinently from a legal standpoint, what do any of those conjectures about Trayvon Martin have to do with the circumstances of his death? The police cannot have known anything about the child apart from his appearance as he lay, an unidentified John Doe, in their morgue, unregarded for days while the man who shot him walked free and uninvestigated.

None of them knew young Mr. Martin or anything about him. These conjectures about his character are cruel and vicious, and little more than an attempt to distract from the murderous conduct of George Zimmerman and his allies in local Florida law enforcement.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:12 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by MysticPunk View Post

While I believe that Zimmerman did act with race in mind, the most important bit is the racism of our nation. This is where we are as a nation and we have to find a way to move past this.
I agree that we as a nation need to move past racism, especially anti-black racism, but I can honestly say that white people are often accused of racism when they aren't even remotely racist. I myself have been accused of it several times, and I know I've stated at least once in these forums that my father-in-law is half black. And one of my two closest friends of 12 years is a black man who I honestly think of as a brother (I mean sibling, not "brothah"). But there are many situations where I feel like I have to walk on egg shells because you never know how someone might take something you say.

For instance, just recently, I was out to dinner with my sister-in-law (who is half Latino and a quarter black) and her very white, ginger fiancé. I tuned out of the conversation for a minute and when I tuned back in, they were discussing what constitutes racism and whether or not the fiancé was racist and I physically cringed because at the table next to us we're three youngish black women who were now paying very close attention to us. I was immediately self conscious because for some reason I didn't feel like my sis-in-law looked "black" enough for anyone to realize they were joking.

So I know this is off topic slightly, but I wanted to make the point that while there are a significant number of people who are anti-black, even subconsciously, there are some of us who are very concerned about being lumped into that group. Black people are taught from a young age what not to do to get into trouble with the law and we are taught from a young age what not to do to get into trouble with black people.

Edit: But we don't usually get shot for it
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:15 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post

None of them knew young Mr. Martin or anything about him. These conjectures about his character are cruel and vicious, and little more than an attempt to distract from the murderous conduct of George Zimmerman and his allies in local Florida law enforcement.
This.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:47 PM   #224
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Black people are taught from a young age what not to do to get into trouble with the law and we are taught from a young age what not to do to get into trouble with black people.
Can you share the talk your parents gave you?

Has anyone else on this board had a 'what not to do to get in trouble with black people' conversation with their parents?

How does that conversation sound like?
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:38 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
It boggles my mind that we're PAYING these people.
Local police departments are funded through city, county, and/or state money, and sometimes receive grants--usually for specific programs or with strings attached. Those grants come from either the state or, sometimes, the federal government.

Probably very little out-of-state taxpayer money ever went to this force.

The feds, though...yeah, we're paying them.
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