When Are Critiques Not Critiques?

When are complaints a bad idea?

Complaining about moderator decisions in a public forum is generally considered...unwise. People on the boards can't tell you the reasoning behind any mod action, so the best thing is to contact the mod in question, or MacAllister, the owner.

I won't speak on the subject of moderator to member discussions but I will answer the original question.

"This piece is garbage. I can't believe you thought this was writing, go back to kindergarten." Is not a critique.

"This sentence is awkward, the main character doesn't work for me, there are plot holes, ect." Those are critiques.

When it's about the writing, what's wrong, and what you think needs to be improved then it's a critique.

If it becomes about the writer or is just insults flung at the wall not only is it useless, it's harmful.

My best recommendation is to take a month and read more/post less. That's not a statement of the value of your opinion. Instead, it is the same advice I'd give if you had just moved into a neighborhood, joined a hiking club, or was just starting flight lessons.

Surviving and thriving at any endeavor means learning the environment, how people communicate with each other and how you can fit in.

As for critiques - "This doesn't work for me." however it is said, isn't worth much by itself. There needs to be a "why" attached to it.

ETA: You are cherry picking, Spider. That's trollish and does not bode well for your future.

Ohgodaspider said:

These were the critiques the issues arose from.

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Yeah, those are all incredibly vague and unhelpful.

Your overall reaction is of limited use. What, specifically, was not working? How could it be made better?

If you can't put your reaction into words, then sit down and figure out how to put it into words, because you are a goddamned writer and are supposed to know how to express yourself.

Also, the act of figuring out why something doesn't work is how you learn to become a better writer by critiquing others. You're wasting your time as well as the writer's by not being specific.

What is the goal of critique? Improving the manuscript. Let's assume we agree on that.

A well-done critique uses specifics to back up all it says via direct references and quotations. Generalities, opinions, and personal preferences do not improve the manuscript, only tailor it to a single reader (if that).

It just didn't grab me (after reading four sentences) gives the writer no useful input. Had you read the entire work posted, you might well have seen a better starting place, or information which could be crafted into a hook, but nope. You stopped.

The fact that you prefer settings other than NYC is moot--the work is set where it's set, and unless you can note specific faults about that choice, rather than just note your preferences, this, too, serves no role in helping the writer improve the work.
I don't often critique critique--it makes me dizzy--but please allow me to suggest ways in which your input did not constitute critique which could result in an improved manuscript.

1. Did I balance well between show and tell? Unsure

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Not at all helpful.

3. Did I use all the senses well?: No, not at all.

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Here's where specifics would have helped. Note places where sensory input could have been added, and suggest to the writer s/he seek them by asking direct questions. (What temperature is the water? Does the street of shops have smells? How do they differ from the smells at the brewery or stable? Like that. )

4. Did you feel the characters emotions? I wasn't aware of any emotion.

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Again, not helpful. The writer obviously feels there's emotion there and has failed to convey it to at least one reader. Return to the manuscript. Determine where you were expected to feel the characters' emotions. Now figure out why you did not, and share that, using specific quotes.

5. How did you find the action scenes? I got to one, but I felt it was forced. (horse chase)

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What words and phrases made it feel forced? How else might the author have expressed that content? S/He needs specifics, not generalities.

6. How was the world building? I got a decent sense of the world, but not in any significant way

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That's doesn't even make sense. I can't tell what you're trying to convey. Be specific about what sense you got and what significant aspects of world building you felt were absent.

7. Was the transition between points of view good? No, it felt forced and unnecessary.

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Again, specific examples. Quote directly. How can the writer make this feel natural and unforced if you don't share how it seemed forced to you?

I think it would serve you well to read well done critiques and see how carefully a good reader can guild the writer toward a better version with concrete examples, significant questions, and encouragement.

Maryn, grizzled critique veteran

Also, the act of figuring out why something doesn't work is how you learn to become a better writer by critiquing others.

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More than worth repeating. Thanks!

Ohgodaspider said:

I then woke this morning, got on facebook and my friend and fellow AW user (name withheld) messaged me: dude, you got kicked off of SYM for too harsh critiques.

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http://www.crayne.com/howcrit.html

I'm not comfortable with censoring critiques. A critique should be your impression of a work, and if it's unfavorable, you should say so.

But it must be substantive. Like "I have problems with the character X, because in this scene he's Y and in the other scene he's Z.' Saying 'this sucks' is not a critique. (I don't know what you said; I haven't seen it.)

I belong to two critique groups, where the members have done it a lot and know what to expect. I've taken many harsh crits in the belly. Some need to be ignored, others studied with care to get the good juice out of them. It's made a better writer out of me.

I'd forgotten about Crane. That's a fully usable how-to site for the beginning critic. Thanks for the reminder, Bill.

Maryn, bookmarking

... if you want the honest truth, this is the impression I got from the critiques you posted here:

That you are merely going through the motions of critiquing and grasping at any excuse not to give one and even not to read the piece to be critiqued, by saying you couldn't get through the first few passages, etc.

Rather than doing that, why not just use one of this emoticons:



(There's nothing essentially wrong with not being into giving critiques. To do it properly requires a fair amount of investment. Just be upfront about it, and don't expect much when you're looking for a critique yourself.)

Just my humble impression.

Ohgodaspider said:

It's not the fact I was removed that bothered me, but the fact that if I was not critiquing correctly, I was not made aware of it. Period. I personally feel that if someone is critiquing incorrectly,or too harshly, you need to let them know and then if they do not stop take action. IMHO

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Don't be put off by your experience, Ohgod. You're still new here and it can take a little while sometimes to understand how a place works and to get the best out of it. You're an enthusiastic little puppy, and if you take onboard the advice you've been given in this and previous threads you're bound to benefit.

Most people don't know how to critique effectively when they start, but the first hurdle to overcome is having the balls to try and you've dangled your meaty ballons where we can all see them. You just need to work on your technique a little.

Stick with it.

That was your critique? Compare that to the one I did for your few chapters. In the two hours it took (and yes, it took that long to get through your twenty or so pages) and the number (multiple per page) of critiques that I gave you. Not just grammar & punctuation, but multiple other suggestions & questions.

If I got what you gave as a critique, I'd be a little upset at the complete unhelpfulness of it. Basically, you wasted space.

As Ken said, you were going through the emotions.

Critiquing is an art in and of itself. You are either unwilling to be a helpful critiquer and are just doing it so you can say "See, I critique too, now read my piece."

Or you just really have no clue how to critique.

Specifics and examples are what make a critique a critique.

If you start out with a "I couldn't get into it, the first passages didn't grab me." You don't stop there. You go the next step. You say what it is that didn't grab you, where did it lose you, why didn't it hold your interest, and what would it take for the writer to grab you as a reader. That's a critique.

There's a thing called the critique rubric I was given at a writer's conference. It has a series of questions you should ask yourself and answer with specifics and examples. This is what's on the worksheets they gave us. Each question has ample space for answers.

CRITIQUE RUBRIC

DIALOGUE:
Does it seem realistic?
Does it flow?
Does any of it stop the forward motion of the story?
Correct tags (do you know who is speaking) and is punctuation correct?
Could some of the dialog be tightened/combined?
Is each character's voice distinct?

DESCRIPTION:
Can you "see" what the author is describing? (Sensory details)?
Are there any areas of description that are confusing/unclear?
Does the description add to or take away from the story? (Too much/too little?)
Do you have a good visual image of the characters and setting?
Did any of the description get in the way of the story?

TENSION:
Is there enough tension?
Is/Are the character's goal(s) clear?
Is/Are there conflict(s) clear?
Do you know what the story question is?

CHARACTERIZATION:
Do the characters feel real/natural/interesting? Or are they cardboard characters used only to advance the plot?
Who is the POV character? Is POV clear? POV shifts?
Do the characters react realistically?
Do you know what motivates the characters?

PLOT:
Do the events in the segment make sense?
Do the scenes flow smoothly and transition well?
Does it feel realistic?

MECHANICS:
Proper punctuation, spelling, sentence construction, correct grammar, proper formatting?

OVERALL:
What is your general feel?
Did it appeal to your emotions? Did it suck you in? (Hold your interest to the end?)
Are you invested in the characters? The plot?
Do you care what happens?
Would you read more?
Were you at any point confused about details?
What are the strengths of this segment? Weaknesses?

Answer as many questions of these as the piece allows with specific examples and you'll have an awesome critique rocking for you.

Tell people "Meh, the location doesn't work for me so I didn't read it." Does them absolutely no good. If you can't bother to read a piece through that you are critiquing by choice, then don't bother hitting the "reply" button at all.

As for the ban, then I'd say it's up to you to find the experience off board within a writer's group because you've used up the good will of the SYW section.

Ohgodaspider said:

The ban preventing me from going on the SYM forums makes me unable to critique and therefore unable to learn by doing.

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So in the meantime, focus on learning by watching.

Ohgodaspider said:

I never posted a 20 page piece, I posted a 1.9k word piece, and another 500 word piece.

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The one you sent me? In the Word doc that I C & P'd it in, it was 18 pages. Twenty was rounding up. Sorry if I wasn't specific.

Why would you send something that you didn't even edit? What's the point of having someone read something with so many errors if you didn't even take the time to edit it?

You asked for a beta reader. That indicates that it's been edited & polished, at least a little bit...

*shakes head* Some people I don't understand.