Editor Question: Who did you use?

[Mustafa]

Hi All,

A very good friend of mine is taking a dive into the self-publishing pool. I told her I'd help her find an editor, and I was wondering if anyone in the room would like to recommend theirs?

Ideally, the editor would have experience with lower YA and MG manuscripts. She's less concerned about price than she is about quality, so any recommendations would be very much appreciated.

Feel free to PM me if you have a recommend that you don't want to post on a public forum. All PM's will remain completely confidential.

Many thanks, folks!

[merrihiatt]

Wish I could help. I didn't have the $$$ to hire an editor. It's one of my long-term goals.

[FOTSGreg]

A friend here on AW. He did an awesome job on my novel Hatchings imnsho, pointing out errors, plotholes, places where the verbiage needed tightening up, duplications, better chapter endings, etc., etc.

[G. Applejack]

Originally Posted by merrihiatt

Wish I could help. I didn't have the $$$ to hire an editor. It's one of my long-term goals.

And you've put out so many books! No offense, but how are you ensuring they are free of grammar errors and devilish little typos? I'm a fairly clean writer and I know I would leave in a howler or two if I didn't get a second (or third) pair of eyes.


Mustafa, I've seen quite a few editors advertised on Kindleboards. You may also want to look up anyone likely on Predators and Editors

An editing service can be expensive, but IMO, well worth it.


Edit: After looking around a couple of them, most offer free samples. This is a great idea as you can check the quality of the editing before purchasing.

Good luck!

[Dungeon Geek]

Originally Posted by G.Collins

And you've put out so many books! No offense, but how are you ensuring they are free of grammar errors and devilish little typos? I'm a fairly clean writer and I know I would leave in a howler or two if I didn't get a second (or third) pair of eyes.


Mustafa, I've seen quite a few editors advertised on Kindleboards. You may also want to look up anyone likely on Predators and Editors

An editing service can be expensive, but IMO, well worth it.


Edit: After looking around a couple of them, most offer free samples. This is a great idea as you can check the quality of the editing before purchasing.

Good luck!

And how do you know that editor you hired is catching all those grammar errors and little typos? You don't, unless you go over it again yourself.

[G. Applejack]

Originally Posted by Dungeon Geek

And how do you know that editor you hired is catching all those grammar errors and little typos? You don't, unless you go over it again yourself.

... Right? So you go over it yourself afterwards to make sure the editor is doing their job, that you agree with the proposed changes, and for the final polish. But you still have an editor who is (hopefully) more experienced in grammar/style than yourself. Someone who can catch something that your eyes skipped over because you know how it's supposed to read.

Just because it's wise for a writer to go over a manuscript for another polish after an editor has made their corrections doesn't make the editor not necessary.

[Dungeon Geek]

Originally Posted by G.Collins

... Right? So you go over it yourself afterwards to make sure the editor is doing their job, that you agree with the proposed changes, and for the final polish. But you still have an editor who is (hopefully) more experienced in grammar/style than yourself. Someone who can catch something that your eyes skipped over because you know how it's supposed to read.

Just because it's wise for a writer to go over a manuscript for another polish after an editor has made their corrections doesn't make the editor not necessary.

Yeah, a good editor is a bonus. Of course, there is always more we can do. We can hire 5 editors instead of 1. But some writers feel perfectly comfortable doing their own editing and the material passes the reader test just fine. That's all I'm suggesting. I don't buy into the notion that every writer must hire an editor to have a professional product.

[G. Applejack]

Originally Posted by Dungeon Geek

Yeah, a good editor is a bonus. Of course, there is always more we can do. We can hire 5 editors instead of 1. But some writers feel perfectly comfortable doing their own editing and the material passes the reader test just fine. That's all I'm suggesting. I don't buy into the notion that every writer must hire an editor to have a professional product.

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with that philosophy and I am not "buying" into anything.

When I publish something in my name and ask that people pay money, it will be the best darned product I can make of it. This includes using the services of an editor.

[Dungeon Geek]

Originally Posted by G.Collins

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with that philosophy and I am not "buying" into anything.

When I publish something in my name and ask that people pay money, it will be the best darned product I can make of it. This includes using the services of an editor.

Then why not hire 5 editors instead of 1? Because you can't afford 5? Well, some writers can't afford 1. So if a writer can't afford 1 editor and is guilty of not making his book the best product it can be, then a writer who hires 1 editor could be accused of the same thing for not hiring 2 editors, or 5.

If a writer is satisfied with his product, and so are his readers, there is no reason to feel bad about anything, including not hiring an editor.

[Medievalist]

I can recommend Dr. Debra Doyle. She's a respected author, she's done MG, she teaches fiction writing, and she's a Ph.D.

http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/editorial.html

[merrihiatt]

Originally Posted by G.Collins

And you've put out so many books! No offense, but how are you ensuring they are free of grammar errors and devilish little typos? I'm a fairly clean writer and I know I would leave in a howler or two if I didn't get a second (or third) pair of eyes.

I have two beta readers and two teachers who read my work before it is published. To answer your question, though, I don't know if they are completely free of grammatical errors or typos. I do know each title is the best I can make it.

I wholeheartedly agree that hiring an editor is the way to go. A day will come when I have the money to do just that. I can hardly wait!

[Parametric]

I'm a big believer that everybody needs somebody to look over their work, but it needn't be a paid editor. If you can get your novel polished and ready with the aid of a beta reader and a lot of hard work, more power to you.

[G. Applejack]

Originally Posted by merrihiatt

I have two beta readers and two teachers who read my work before it is published. To answer your question, though, I don't know if they are completely free of grammatical errors or typos. I do know each title is the best I can make it.

I wholeheartedly agree that hiring an editor is the way to go. A day will come when I have the money to do just that. I can hardly wait!

Ah okay. Well between two teachers and two beta readers and yourself (of course!) I'm sure you get the vast majority of it. I've been following your thread (and silently rooting for you) and I boggled for a moment there.

Originally Posted by Dungeon Geek

Then why not hire 5 editors instead of 1? Because you can't afford 5? Well, some writers can't afford 1. So if a writer can't afford 1 editor and is guilty of not making his book the best product it can be, then a writer who hires 1 editor could be accused of the same thing for not hiring 2 editors, or 5.

If a writer is satisfied with his product, and so are his readers, there is no reason to feel bad about anything, including not hiring an editor.

Oh now you're just being over the top. There is a large difference between hiring someone knowledgeable to look over your work (or like Merri is doing, having trusted betas/teachers) and going nuts with 5 editors.

I'm not asking you to feel bad or trying to guilt you. I am saying I don't think that a writer can catch his/her own typos. I am saying that I (emphasis ME) would never ask anyone to pay anything for something I (again, emphasis: ME) feel is subpar. I (emphasis) would not put out quality work if I (em) left it to my lonesome.

And I don't think I'm the only one.


Edit: And now I realize I'm on the verge of derailing the thread. This is all I'm going to say about it. Carry on.

[merrihiatt]

Originally Posted by G.Collins

I've been following your thread (and silently rooting for you)

Thanks! Hope you've found it beneficial in some way.

[Dungeon Geek]

Originally Posted by Medievalist

Dr. Debra Doyle. She's a respected author, she's done MG, she teaches fiction writing, and she's a Ph.D.

http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/editorial.html

Her rates seem very reasonable.

[Medievalist]

Originally Posted by Dungeon Geek

Her rates seem very reasonable.

She really impressed me at Viable Paradise.

[Unimportant]

I'll second the recco for Debra Doyle. She's amazing.

[Old Hack]

First up, a reminder of the various stages of editing:

Editors help authors improve the flow and structure of a story, and resolve plot holes and characterisation issues. They do not make the changes necessary to do this: they merely highlight them, and suggest ways the problems can be resolved. It's up to the writer to rewrite her work.

Copy editors check for grammar issues, spelling, continuity and typos: they also fact-check.

Proof readers check the final version of the book looking for any remaining errors.

At every stage, the author should reread the text to ensure the work has been done correctly.

Most books would benefit from a good editor and copy editor (note that this requires two editorial passes). Few self published books have enjoyed the attentions of either.

Originally Posted by G.Collins

Edit: After looking around a couple of them, most offer free samples. This is a great idea as you can check the quality of the editing before purchasing.

Good luck!

This sort of sample edit can only give you the smallest of ideas about the editor: how can you tell how she's going to deal with plot holes across the entire book based on such a small sample?

Originally Posted by Dungeon Geek

Yeah, a good editor is a bonus. Of course, there is always more we can do. We can hire 5 editors instead of 1. But some writers feel perfectly comfortable doing their own editing and the material passes the reader test just fine. That's all I'm suggesting.

Three editors--structural editor, copy editor and proof reader--should be enough. If they're good.

I don't buy into the notion that every writer must hire an editor to have a professional product.

Having reviewed plenty of self published books, many written by people who thought they'd be ok without an editor, I have to disagree.

Originally Posted by Medievalist

I can recommend Dr. Debra Doyle. She's a respected author, she's done MG, she teaches fiction writing, and she's a Ph.D.

http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/editorial.html

Originally Posted by Unimportant

I'll second the recco for Debra Doyle. She's amazing.

And I'll third it.

Some general points:

I do not recommend that anyone pays extra for the editorial options offered when using self publishing service providers. The books I've seen which have been edited in this way seem to have been copy edited rather than edited, and have still been in need of a severe edit. They also tend to have a dull, flat voice which I suspect might be a result of the editing they've received. I'd rather read a book with a raw passion and a few typos than a book which was sanitised and clean.

This doesn't mean that editors ruin your voice: just that incompetent or untrained editors will, and you'd do better to avoid them.

Good editing is expensive. If you pay $150 for someone to edit your work, you're probably wasting your money.

Good editing is difficult. If you've not worked with an editor before, you're probably going to find the process painful. It's not nice to have someone highlight all the ways you've screwed your own manuscript up: but stick with it. Try to see the possible benefits of what your editor says, and embrace them.

People who have written a couple of books don't automatically become good editors. Be very wary of who you pay money to.

[G. Applejack]

Originally Posted by Old Hack

This sort of sample edit can only give you the smallest of ideas about the editor: how can you tell how she's going to deal with plot holes across the entire book based on such a small sample?

True, though I was thinking more in terms of copy editing. The sample would at least give an author a taste of their style and professionalism.

If it were me, and I was plunking down a good chunk of money on an editor (or two) I'd also be careful to look-over previous books they've edited. No editor can turn a turd into gold, but if I saw grammar problems and ridiculous plot holes all over the place, I'd think twice.

[James D. Macdonald]

When you see a finished book, you don't know how many of the problems were things the editor missed and how many came from the author saying "STET, DAMMIT!"

The author always has final say.

Two other excellent editors are Nancy Hanger at Windhaven Press and Laura Anne Gilman at d. y. m. k.

[chaeron]

I worked with Bobbie Christmas from Zebra Communications. She's not cheap but I thought she did a great job on my two novels.

[stranger]

For a copyeditor, I worked with Teresa Watson. Her prices are very reasonable, she was timely, conscientious about research in fact-checking and her suggestions and corrections were dead on.

http://www.teresaleewatson.com/p/pricing_07.html

[Kitty27]

Once again,AW saves me!

I am stepping into self-publishing and thanks for all the editor recommendations! This helps immensely.

[WeaselFire]

Keep in mind that an editor's job is to remove the errors you put in the work and insert their own errors.

Proofreaders are essential. And none of them will ever catch all the errors.

Copy editors will catch the syntax errors, misused words and so on. Equally essential.

Story editors, layout editors and structure editors (usually the same person) are also essential. These are the ones who get your plot correct. Writers always forget to tell the reader something or try to tell the readers what they shouldn't.

None of these need to be paid. But those who are paid are usually better. None of these jobs can be done by the original author. You're blinded, biased and usually cry babies. At least I am.

I used to get tired of editors redlining my awesome introductory paragraph. Until I realized I should have redlined it before submitting it.

Jeff

[Old Hack]

I've pruned away that little piece of performance art and will now reopen this thread. Thanks for your patience, everyone.