Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

editing for authors ad

A publisher or agency using Google ads to solicit your novel probably isn't anyone you want to write for.


Go Back   Absolute Write Water Cooler > Discussion > Bewares, Recommendations & Background Check
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-10-2012, 06:27 PM   #1
Undercover
I got it covered
 
Undercover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Not here, but there
Posts: 7,577
Undercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsUndercover is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Mitchell Morris Publishing / Celeris Publishing Group, Inc. / kNight Romance Publishing

They're not on the list from what I saw. Does any one have any info on them?

http://www.mitchellmorrispublishinginc.com/
Undercover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 02:06 AM   #2
AlishaS
Is swimming with creativity frogs
 
AlishaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,617
AlishaS is a glorious beacon of lightAlishaS is a glorious beacon of lightAlishaS is a glorious beacon of light
I don't have any experience with them but off hand by their website... their covers are so-so. Some look great, other's don't. Their about us page reads more like a contact page, with no real information on them as a whole, who they are, what they expect to produce and what their creds are.
The submission guidelines are nill, simply stating to email someone for more info. I'd prefer some upfront information. Like, what they are looking for, what they publisher or don't, and well the obvious, how to submit to them if they take unsolicited or unagented manuscripts.
I've also never seen a guest book on a publishers page before... so yeah, that's weird to me.

I'd love to hear what someone with more experience than I has to say, or perhaps if one of their authors comes forward
AlishaS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2012, 07:44 AM   #3
victoriastrauss
Writer Beware Goddess
Absolute Sage
 
victoriastrauss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Far from the madding crowd
Posts: 6,503
victoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
On their blog, they're touting the fact that their "mid-grade" (I think they mean middle grade) novel Wicked Passage was edited by Laurie Rosin, an experienced freelance editor. Why would a publisher--which, if it's really a publisher, has its own in-house editors--advertise the fact that one of its authors paid a bundle for outside editing? Curious.

- Victoria
__________________



Victoria Strauss
www.victoriastrauss.com
Writer Beware: www.writerbeware.com
Writer Beware Blog: www.accrispin.blogspot.com
Follow me on Twitter


victoriastrauss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2012, 05:08 PM   #4
profen4
Monkeys are evil
 
profen4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,560
profen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admiration
Quote:
Originally Posted by victoriastrauss View Post
On their blog, they're touting the fact that their "mid-grade" (I think they mean middle grade) novel Wicked Passage was edited by Laurie Rosin, an experienced freelance editor. Why would a publisher--which, if it's really a publisher, has its own in-house editors--advertise the fact that one of its authors paid a bundle for outside editing? Curious.

- Victoria
It's worded in such a way that I can't really tell if the author paid for the editing, or if the publisher used (and paid) Rosin for the editing. ao nguc do boi nam xe day doi cao cap cho be ao so mi cong so ban buon quan ao cac loai chup anh da ngoai o ha noi
__________________


Steven Whibley | author website | blog | facebook

Last edited by profen4; 05-14-2013 at 04:15 PM.
profen4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2012, 07:33 PM   #5
profen4
Monkeys are evil
 
profen4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,560
profen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admiration
Is kNight Romance Publishing ( http://knightromancepublishing.com/) another imprint of this group? Same submissions editor. ao chip do boi cao cap xe day doi vay lien cong so nu ban buon chup anh quang cao
__________________


Steven Whibley | author website | blog | facebook

Last edited by profen4; 05-14-2013 at 04:15 PM.
profen4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2012, 08:12 PM   #6
thothguard51
A Gentleman of a refined age...
 
thothguard51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Out side the beltway...
Posts: 9,077
thothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsthothguard51 is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
From their about us page...

SUBMISSION GUIDELINES
Please note we only accept polished submissions.

From my experience, polished usual means already edited.
__________________
Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

Currently working on...

From, The Tales of Netherron,
Book 1, A Game of Pawns
Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

In the pipeline,
Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

Nick Anthony
thothguard51 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2012, 08:25 PM   #7
profen4
Monkeys are evil
 
profen4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,560
profen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admirationprofen4 has earned our admiration
Quote:
Originally Posted by thothguard51 View Post
From their about us page...

SUBMISSION GUIDELINES
Please note we only accept polished submissions.

From my experience, polished usual means already edited.

That's actually a pretty common thing to see in submission guidelines for publishers and agencies. I can think of a number of places that say that so I don't think it necessarily means "professionally" edited. Plus, on the editor's website, the testimonial for that book is from the publisher, not the author, so that *might* mean something (ETA: Given that, generally, testimonials come from people who paid for the service). bo do lot nu goi cam do boi xe day cho be vay cong so nu ban buon quan ao album anh cuoi dep
__________________


Steven Whibley | author website | blog | facebook

Last edited by profen4; 05-14-2013 at 04:15 PM.
profen4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2012, 09:15 PM   #8
James D. Macdonald
Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
 
James D. Macdonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 23,084
James D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
It doesn't mean "Get your book professionally edited." It means "For the love of Benji don't send us your first draft twenty seconds after you type 'The End'!"
__________________
Madhouse Manor
James D. Macdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2012, 07:32 PM   #9
CaoPaux
Mostly Harmless
SuperModerator
 
CaoPaux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Coastal Desert
Posts: 11,292
CaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCaoPaux is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by profen4 View Post
Is kNight Romance Publishing ( http://knightromancepublishing.com/) another imprint of this group? Same submissions editor.
Their About Us page lists Tracey Mitchell as CEO and uses Mitchell Morris email, so I'd say yes.
__________________
ICAO
---------
Achievers strive for excellence. Perfectionists drive themselves to extinction. -- A Grapple A Day
I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage. -- Charles DeSecondat

2013: II2014:
CaoPaux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2012, 07:32 PM   #10
victoriastrauss
Writer Beware Goddess
Absolute Sage
 
victoriastrauss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Far from the madding crowd
Posts: 6,503
victoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsvictoriastrauss is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by profen4 View Post
It's worded in such a way that I can't really tell if the author paid for the editing, or if the publisher used (and paid) Rosin for the editing.
Rosin is an experienced editor and not cheap--I'm not seeing a small press shelling out for that kind of extra expense. My guess would be that the author paid. (Another possibility, of course, would be that the publisher paid and passed the cost on to the author, but that's not an assumption that should be made without some evidence.)

- Victoria
__________________



Victoria Strauss
www.victoriastrauss.com
Writer Beware: www.writerbeware.com
Writer Beware Blog: www.accrispin.blogspot.com
Follow me on Twitter


victoriastrauss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2012, 12:05 AM   #11
Michael Drakich
A wanderer in the sea of publishing
 
Michael Drakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 166
Michael Drakich is on a distinguished road
Exclamation

Mitchell-Morris Publishing is the same as kNight Romance Publishing. They changed the name in July 2011. Nowadays, they also advertise themselves as a division of the Celeris Publishing Group - all the same people. Let's see, I signed a contract with them in October 2010. In it I was promised 5 hard copies of my novel (never got them) 50 reviews (got 3, none posted to Amazon, at least all 5 star) 10% of gross sales after dealer discount (got 10% of net sales after printing costs) and though not in the contract was promised an email campaign to bloggers and scifi websites (to my knowledge they sent out one email) I am aware they never paid my editor who parted ways with them a year ago. My contract is for 2 years from publication date which was April 15, 2011 so I'm stuck until then. Not worth the trouble to fight it. I'll wait it out. I am aware of at least one author in the process of suing them. Anything else you would like to know?
Michael Drakich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2012, 12:18 AM   #12
Michael Drakich
A wanderer in the sea of publishing
 
Michael Drakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 166
Michael Drakich is on a distinguished road
The reason I pulled up this conversation today was I received an email from the publisher claiming Bakes & Taylor wasn't paying any royalties, which meant they would be behind on paying royalties. I could find nothing about that in a google search so i decided to search the publisher and found this thread.
Michael Drakich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 05:15 AM   #13
Alexx Starnes
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Alexx Starnes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9
Alexx Starnes is on a distinguished road
Do Know that they have not paid their authors or editors since march of this year.
Alexx Starnes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 02:05 AM   #14
Michael Drakich
A wanderer in the sea of publishing
 
Michael Drakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 166
Michael Drakich is on a distinguished road
I believe they have gone out of business. Their website is gone and their emails don't work.
Michael Drakich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 05:54 AM   #15
James D. Macdonald
Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
 
James D. Macdonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 23,084
James D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsJames D. Macdonald is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Don't hold back, Jeremy. Tell us what you really think.

So: Was your sale to Knight Romance Publishing made by Blue Ridge Literary Agency (Dawn Dowdle)?
__________________
Madhouse Manor

Last edited by James D. Macdonald; 10-07-2012 at 03:50 PM.
James D. Macdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 04:40 PM   #16
Wagner
Jeremy Wagner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 5
Wagner is on a distinguished road
James D. Macdonald: If I tell you what I really think, I'll be banned from here.

I've held my tongue for over a year now. I'm calling out this faux-CEO and letting everyone know that she took a ton of cash from me and is not paying me back what she owes me.

*If you loan someone $1.00 or $15,000, you expect to be paid back.
*If you're due royalties for books sales--with no advance--you're owed the money.
*If a publisher owes you 5 complimentary books, you're owed 5 books.

TRACEY MITCHELL has never delivered on any of these things...not one! That's the brutal truth and my tone is justified. The gloves are off.
__________________
All the best,
Jeremy
Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 06:47 PM   #17
Stacia Kane
Girl Detective
AW Moderator
 
Stacia Kane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: In cahoots with the other boo-birds
Posts: 7,996
Stacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald View Post
Don't hold back, Jeremy. Tell us what you really think.

So: Was your sale to Knight Romance Publishing made by Blue Ridge Literary Agency (Dawn Dowdle)?

According to PM, yes, it was. Sale announced December 2010, and Dowdle is the agent listed as making the sale.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
James D. Macdonald: If I tell you what I really think, I'll be banned from here.
Probably not, actually.

Quote:
I've held my tongue for over a year now. I'm calling out this faux-CEO and letting everyone know that she took a ton of cash from me and is not paying me back what she owes me.

*If you loan someone $1.00 or $15,000, you expect to be paid back.
*If you're due royalties for books sales--with no advance--you're owed the money.
*If a publisher owes you 5 complimentary books, you're owed 5 books.

TRACEY MITCHELL has never delivered on any of these things...not one! That's the brutal truth and my tone is justified. The gloves are off.

I am so sorry this happened to you, Jeremy, and that your faith was unjustified.
__________________
http://www.staciakane.com



WRONG WAYS DOWN available now!


"...in Wrong Ways Down, Kane masterfully peels back layers unseen through Chess' point of view. Through Terrible's eyes, Kane walks readers on a thin line, riding the rough and yet poetic cadence of how he speaks and thinks--and in doing so, she reveals a layer to him, Chess and the underbelly of his world not seen before."

--Lauren Dane, NYT & USA TODAY bestseller
Stacia Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 07:22 PM   #18
Wagner
Jeremy Wagner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 5
Wagner is on a distinguished road
Stacia,

Thanks for the kind words. You always rock and I appreciate you. I hope you're doing great.

Stacia, you actually urged me to return to Absolute Write many moons ago via Twitter. Given my recent trials, I'm sharing my KRP Publishing experience which is one part personal/business (money loans) and one part "poorly treated author." This Absolute Writer forum/thread for "Writers Beware" is the perfect platform to inform others of what happened to me...with individuals like Tracey Mitchell and KRP, there's a dark-side that realm I'm bringing to light.

From the bottom of my heart, I wish everyone here the best in their craft and in this business, and this hasn't deterred me from writing or publishing. I wish everyone here only a positive and gratifying publishing experience now and forever. No one should stop writing because the business burned them. Anyone who is really PASSIONATE about writing will write all the time and never stop. I have 2 new novels done wrapped up...I never give up or stop...I'll keep writing without a publisher no matter what.

If anyone has had a great relationship with Tracey Mitchell, then you're fortunate. For me, I've been duped and taken advantage of on a level most people can't imagine. It really sucks.

*Stacia Kane: I'm checking out Chasing Magic now
__________________
All the best,
Jeremy
Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 10:25 PM   #19
Stacia Kane
Girl Detective
AW Moderator
 
Stacia Kane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: In cahoots with the other boo-birds
Posts: 7,996
Stacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsStacia Kane is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
Stacia,

Thanks for the kind words. You always rock and I appreciate you. I hope you're doing great.
:blush: I hope the same for you.


Quote:
Stacia, you actually urged me to return to Absolute Write many moons ago via Twitter. Given my recent trials, I'm sharing my KRP Publishing experience which is one part personal/business (money loans) and one part "poorly treated author." This Absolute Writer forum/thread for "Writers Beware" is the perfect platform to inform others of what happened to me...with individuals like Tracey Mitchell and KRP, there's a dark-side that realm I'm bringing to light.
And I still urge you to return, and to stick around! We have lots here aside from Bewares. Check out the genre sections, or I bet you'd offer some great critiques in Share Your Work, or just chat in some of the general sections.

And thank you for informing us of what happened to you.

Quote:
From the bottom of my heart, I wish everyone here the best in their craft and in this business, and this hasn't deterred me from writing or publishing. I wish everyone here only a positive and gratifying publishing experience now and forever. No one should stop writing because the business burned them. Anyone who is really PASSIONATE about writing will write all the time and never stop. I have 2 new novels done wrapped up...I never give up or stop...I'll keep writing without a publisher no matter what.
I think I speak for every member when I say we wish you the same. Genuinely, and completely.



Quote:
If anyone has had a great relationship with Tracey Mitchell, then you're fortunate. For me, I've been duped and taken advantage of on a level most people can't imagine. It really sucks.
Yes, it does. A few of us here have had bad experiences, and been duped or taken advantage of or lied to or cheated or whatever else. We work to try to make sure it doesn't happen to others, and we hate it when it does. So again, I'm so sorry. It's not fair.


Quote:
*Stacia Kane: I'm checking out Chasing Magic now
Thanks! That's the fifth book in the series, so you may be a tad confused if you start there, but thanks.
__________________
http://www.staciakane.com



WRONG WAYS DOWN available now!


"...in Wrong Ways Down, Kane masterfully peels back layers unseen through Chess' point of view. Through Terrible's eyes, Kane walks readers on a thin line, riding the rough and yet poetic cadence of how he speaks and thinks--and in doing so, she reveals a layer to him, Chess and the underbelly of his world not seen before."

--Lauren Dane, NYT & USA TODAY bestseller
Stacia Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 11:34 PM   #20
Wagner
Jeremy Wagner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 5
Wagner is on a distinguished road
Stacia,

The 5th book? I shoulda known! Well, I'm not too bad off..I have the first 3 of the Downside Ghosts series here. I assume there's #4 (I don't have) and Chasing Magic is #5 of the same series?

I'll look into the genre sections here and more. This is truly a great thing. And again, I thank you for your friendship and words of wisdom.
__________________
All the best,
Jeremy
Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 04:24 AM   #21
Alexx Starnes
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Alexx Starnes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9
Alexx Starnes is on a distinguished road
I always wondered

"For me, I've been duped and taken advantage of on a level most people can't imagine. It really sucks."


Jeremy, I am so sorry something like this has happened to you. All authors deserve to be treated with respect and be paid for the work you have done. I know a few other authors and editors that are having the same problem with this particular publisher (if you can call it that). You are in a worse position having lent her money. No one, NO ONE deserves to be taken advantage of.
Alexx Starnes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Custom Search

If this site is helpful to you,
Please consider a voluntary subscription to defray ongoing expenses.

Buy Scrivener 2 for Mac OS X (Regular Licence)


All times are GMT +4.5. The time now is 12:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.