Occult ban on Ebay

[Foinah]

I wanted to make everyone aware of a new policy at Ebay that goes into effect on August 30, 2012.

All "supernatural" items will be banned from the site.
You may ask yourself, Why does this concern me, the writer?

Suppose you have written a spell book, a kitchen witch cook book, or something else along those lines, have self published and have put this item up for sale on Ebay.
After August 30th, your item would be considered prohibited.

When I learned of this policy (this morning while watching the news), I immediately called Ebay customer service. I questioned the new policy and this is what I was told:

The rep very specifically said the ban was for potions, hexes, charms or any item that promotes occultism, witchcraft, metaphysics, wizardry, black magic or anything supernatural.
(Verbatim.)

This smacks of discrimination.

I asked specifically about crucifixes or holy water, Saint medallions or holy candles, and he said that those items would still be available under the religious section.

I understand that Ebay is a private company and has the right to mandate the content of their site. My only redress was to register my opposition to this sweeping ban of all things not conforming to main stream religion and ask that they review and change this policy. I will also no longer do business with Ebay.

I understand Ebay has instituted this policy to protect consumers from less-than-ethical peddlers of snake oil and skullduggery, but the policy basically pushes the rest of us pagan retailers and consumers back into the broom closet.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Foinah

I understand Ebay has instituted this policy to protect consumers from less-than-ethical peddlers of snake oil and skullduggery, but the policy basically pushes the rest of us pagan retailers and consumers back into the broom closet.

Hmmm. not so sure that's their motivation. weird bunch, ebay. and paypal are not far behind.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Wow, that's fucked up. If I hadn't already stopped buying and selling there due to other ridiculous policies and asshattery I certainly would now.

Remembering when eBay was laid-back and fun makes me feel old.

[veinglory]

I was getting very sick of seeing people selling genie/haunted/vampire etc items at ridiculous prices. I would hope the ban applies to that, not books, arts etc that is just about the occult.

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by veinglory

I was getting very sick of seeing people selling genie/haunted/vampire etc items at ridiculous prices. I would hope the ban applies to that, not books, arts etc that is just about the occult.

I agree. People selling curses and curse removal kits at high prices, and claiming that the items will work are the bottom of the barrel.
The reason I checked into this is because I make and sell Rune sets.
My particular background in the craft taught me that profiting from the craft is a no-no. If someone needs help, well, you help them. There is no prohibition from making a living but gouging for gouging's sake is anathema.
Also all the smoke and mirrors opportunities for folks to take advantage of desperate people sticks in my craw.

Now having said that, caveat emptor. I support a ban on fraudulent and misrepresented items. But if someone wants to spend the money there will always be someone willing to sell to them -- haunted lamp? Sure. Cursed eyeglasses? Sure. Well, they were haunted for me! What do you mean it doesn't seem spooky! Haha.

The way the new policy is written, all supernatural items will be banned. In my initial post I left out one descriptor: "anything for conjuring" should have been listed as well. In all fairness the Ebay rep was taken aback by this ban and agreed that it was discriminatory. In fact, the ban information had not yet even been disseminated to the customer service department, and the rep had to put me on hold twice while he dug for information.
The rep (I feel like an idiot for not writing down his name) said he'd bring this up at the policy meeting this week.
How far the ban will actually be applied is yet-to-be-determined.
As it stands I will not be able to sell any of my wares on Ebay, not at all, because they cater to the supernatural.

In a discussion earlier I pointed out sellers can skirt the ban by tagging their items in other categories. But it is the principal of the ban that bothers me.
In one sweeping motion all religious and ritual items that are not mainstream will be banned from sale on Ebay.

That's the crux of it. A bit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Rufus Coppertop]

My understanding is that an actual pack of Tarot cards or an athame or a package of galbanum or opoponax will be not be banned.

It's the Tarot readings, the long range Reiki sessions and spell castings that are being banned.

"It's important to note that items that have a tangible value for the item itself and may also be used in metaphysical rites and practices (ie jewelry, crystals, incense, candles, and books) are allowed in most cases,"

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,6214536.story

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by Rufus Coppertop

My understanding is that an actual pack of Tarot cards or an athame or a package of galbanum or opoponax will be not be banned.

It's the Tarot readings, the long range Reiki sessions and spell castings that are being banned.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,6214536.story

"In most cases..."
See? That's the part that makes me uncomfortable as well.
Ebay seems to be saying two different things. What was explained over the phone and what was released on their site: http://pages.ebay.com/sellerinformat...thingelse.html

is a jumble. The rep read from the company memo regarding the ban and changes, and he said ALL items. It's certainly different than what is being represented.

The rep promised to update me in a few days as to what the "official" stance will be and I will report back here.

[Raventongue]

Even if an actual pack of Tarot cards or an athame is fair game, what does that mean for Pagan booksellers? Are they in the 'item has value" category or the "promotes witchcraft" one?

I already avoid/hate Ebay. But this is silly as hell.

[regdog]

Holy carp. Looks like I'm done buying on ebay and will send them an email telling them why. I hate the legal discrimination
of our religion.

[allenparker]

I apologize for intruding in this forum. I am a Christian, but I see this as another one of those rules meant to do good, but is clearly not in the best interest of anyone.

If they can set aside one religion, how long before they have to set aside all religion. Today it could be a spell book, but tomorrow it might be the Koran, or the Book of the Dead, or the Book of St. John. For that matter, it could be my books on Chester, the nudist Christian.

Who can say for sure where the end of all this could be?

Allen, in support of religious freedom, no matter whose...

[veinglory]

I don't think doing something to ban the selling of cycnically-produced fraudulent goods is discrimination. I expect 'distant prayers' are included as well as 'distant reiki' and 'blessed' items as well as 'spelled' ones.

It seems to me that they are honestly targeting fraud. And until the a rule is applied in a prejudiced way, i will not assume this outcome. I, personally, feel that letting the 'cursed item' seller continue to clog up the system and prey on the credulous would not be ethical. these items are *not* being provided by true believers. Just resellers desperate to add value to their crap.

As a person searching for occult products these crap listings made it next to impossible to find real occult items. So the second Ebay delists a product that doesn't smell like rank occult-sploitation from 50 feet I will get out my pitchfork, but not before.

[shadowwalker]

I looked at eBay, searched their 'not allowed' articles, and couldn't find anything about occult items, hexes, charms, potions... Now, I could understand potions - look at their food/pharmaceutical list of things not allowed - but the rest? But until I see any of the above items listed in their guidelines, I'm going to assume nothing is settled yet - but it might be a good idea to contact eBay and let them know what you think about this before it becomes official.

[Foinah]

Making Light has a great post on the blog regarding this situation.

Thank you, everyone, for your interest in this kerfuffle. I agree that the policy was put in place to cap fraud. But trying to get answers has been frustrating -- Ebay makes it very difficult to contact customer service!!! haha. I finally tracked down a way to contact them via email by googling "ebay customer service email address".


Rather than just having my word as to what was conveyed over the phone (regardless of how diligent I was with my questions), I finally found a way to send an email regarding my concerns.

Here it is:

Yesterday (8/19/2012 at 10:30 am PST) I contacted customer service via telephone regarding the upcoming BAN on supernatural items on 8/30/2012. The rep was very helpful, but I would like clarification. According to the rep, the wording of the ban is as follows: All items that promote the supernatural, such as curses, hexes, spells, potions, charms, occultism, witchcraft, metaphysics, wizardry, conjuring, or black magic will be prohibited from being sold on ebay. This conflicts with your posted changes -- i.e. a ban on services for the supernatural. Which wording is correct? I am concerned that the broad, all encompassing ban on any supernatural item while mainstream religious items will be allowed is rather discriminatory. Again, it was explained to me that the ban is on ALL items with the descriptors listed above. Recent articles in the news also support the first description of the ban. Currently, as explained to me yesterday, I could not sell my rune sets on Ebay as they would be considered as catering to the supernatural, conjuring, etc., but if I placed a Roasry on your site for auction that would still be allowed. I am truly hoping this is simply a mix up and that ebay is not banning a religion in a broad sweep. Please clarify that this ban does not affect pagan artifacts, supplies, occult supplies and artifacts, books or any documents with reference to the supernatural, occultism, metaphysics, wizardry, etc., or jewelry with occult symbols or pagan symbols, icons, statuary, or any other "supernatural" item besides intagible services like psychic readings, tarot card readings, Reiki, or purchased spell casting. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible.

Hopefully I will get something back in writing that will explain the upcoming ban. I realize it appears I pushed the spin-crash-burn button about this issue, but it's the wording of the ban that could create a serious problem for pagan/occult/new age retailers.

The more people who contact Ebay with concerns, the sooner we, as a community, can get a clearly defined answer as to what this ban actually entails.

Waiting until a policy is in effect, without registering your concerns beforehand if possible, makes the removal of said policy that much more difficult in the future.

I value each opinion stated in this forum, and truly appreciate the diversity of opinions.

When I get a response, I will paste it here. Hopefully this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot ;-)

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by allenparker

I apologize for intruding in this forum. I am a Christian, but I see this as another one of those rules meant to do good, but is clearly not in the best interest of anyone.

If they can set aside one religion, how long before they have to set aside all religion. Today it could be a spell book, but tomorrow it might be the Koran, or the Book of the Dead, or the Book of St. John. For that matter, it could be my books on Chester, the nudist Christian.

Who can say for sure where the end of all this could be?

Allen, in support of religious freedom, no matter whose...

Oh! Not an intrusion at all! Everyone is welcome here ;-)
And thank you for your support!

[regdog]

I called and got the same basic rhetoric

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by regdog

I called and got the same basic rhetoric

So it's not just my interpretation. Hmmm.
Thank you for making the call. Let's hope Ebay adjusts the policy and doesn't opt for such a discriminatory stance.

[Foinah]

Update:
I received an auto response email from ebay directing me to call customer service.
So I did and got a different rep (named Reginald). He told me he needed to investigate further and said his supervisor would call me within two hours. That was at 9:30 am.
It is now 8:03 PST and I haven't heard a peep back from ebay.

[taichiquan.panda]

Originally Posted by allenparker

I apologize for intruding in this forum. I am a Christian, but I see this as another one of those rules meant to do good, but is clearly not in the best interest of anyone.

If they can set aside one religion, how long before they have to set aside all religion. Today it could be a spell book, but tomorrow it might be the Koran, or the Book of the Dead, or the Book of St. John. For that matter, it could be my books on Chester, the nudist Christian.

Who can say for sure where the end of all this could be?

Allen, in support of religious freedom, no matter whose...

I lean a little more toward the Buddhist camp, but consider myself a more spiritual than religious person.

Their policy needs more clarification, period. Otherwise, it smells like discrimination.

That aside, I can't stand ebay. I prefer Amazon.

[Ruth2]

I agree. The policy definitely needs more clarification.

I'd rather wade through the crap than throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Foinah]

Update:
I never received the promised phone call.
So I called again this evening.

The customer service rep (yet another one) now says that it is a proposal and not a new policy, and that they have received absolutely no information about it.

He promised to email me as soon as learns what exactly is going on.

[regdog]

Me thinks they are getting negative feedback and don't want to lose business.

[frimble3]

Originally Posted by regdog

Me thinks they are getting negative feedback and don't want to lose business.

That downgrade from 'policy' to 'proposal' sounds like a backtrack. Possibly 'complain early and complain often' works?

[Foinah]

I guess we'll find out.

[TedTheewen]

I'm spreading this around as fast as I can.

[words]

It's probably just a coincidence but this comes at the same time that Etsy is also changing its policies. In their case it's about false medical claims--which sounds good in theory but could be used as a way to block holistic and herbal remedies which actually do have some efficacy.

I'm against false claims in either the spiritual or health areas but so often any bans like this end up targeting the alternative/non-mainstream vendors, lumping all of them into the category of frauds. Obviously there are just as many frauds in mainstream religion and healthcare as elsewhere.

This trend makes me uncomfortable because it seems as if it is part of the whole reactionary movement of the right trying to undo any advances made since the 70s onward.