Heads Up: Harper Voyager calls for unagented submissions

You've got a good way of looking at it, thothguard51. I was agreeing with your points above, sorry if that didn't come across too clearly. I think I definitely need to adopt a similar attitude to yours and get off my print deal high horse.

Definitely agreed that the publishing credit with such a reputable house is not to be sniffed at. But you raise a good point about the contract... and I wonder how it would word things in regards to print deals, and who would handle foreign rights.

The comments at the bottom of the link seem to suggest there is a very different royalties system for ebooks as opposed to paper. If this is the case is reduced revenue the only downside?

The comments seem to be jumping the gun a bit because as far as I know Harper haven't mentioned anything about royalty rates so far.

Self-published e-book rates are 70% on Amazon (though it's only 35% in some territories) but e-book royalties are also higher than print royalties with trade publishers. The Author's Guild says the standard trade publishing royalty rate is 25%.

Until a contract is released the comments seem to just be negative speculation. If the contract offered by Harper is unfair, I suppose the authors can simply turn it down? Or they could use the offer as leverage to get an agent who can negotiate...

It's food for thought, though.

Woah! I wonder if I can pull off a query letter for my WIP, even though it's... you know, in progress.

Is this different from the Pan Macmillan open thingy some years ago?

frankiebrown -- I'd be more worried about completing and revising it in a week, dude. Note their wording:

How long does my book need to be?
We are looking for full-length manuscripts only. A full-length manuscript needs to be more than 70,000 words, and ideally we are looking for manuscripts between 80,000–120,000 words.

Can I submit a manuscript that I am still working on?
No. Please only submit full-length manuscripts that are completed and polished.

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I'd take a guess that their submission form will want you to upload the full manuscript.

GeorgeK said:

The comments at the bottom of the link seem to suggest there is a very different royalties system for ebooks as opposed to paper. If this is the case is reduced revenue the only downside?

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My understanding...

If an advance is paid, the royalties are always going to be smaller than what the self published writer can get from Smashwords, Amazon, B&N, or any other e-pub.

Of course, you also need to consider the cost of the editing, the formatting to various e-vendors, art work and or cover design and marketing the publisher does as cost the writer does not incur, no mater if an advance is paid or not...

EMaree said:

For most writers, because it's difficult to exhaust every agent and publisher available for queries, it's not a choice between an e-book only deal and self-pub. It's a choice between e-book only deal or to continue querying in the hopes of a print and digital deal.

What's holding me back is the 'what if' -- what if I do this and my book only ever comes out as an e-book? What if I lose my chance to see this project in print?

But make no bones about it, Harper is huge. I just have an attachment to print books and would prefer a print deal. But I think I will give the submission window a try. Carpe diem and all that.

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This is how I feel and I'm not sure quite what to do. I have a trunk novel that I'd like to get in front of more eyes so I will probably submit that after repolishing it a bit.

But I've also got a novel that I'm finishing up *right now* that hasn't been seen by anyone. This seems like a good opportunity, but I can't help wonder if it would be better to try for print and e-pub first. Not sure what to do. Hmmm.

EMaree said:

Self-published e-book rates are 70% on Amazon (though it's only 35% in some territories) but e-book royalties are also higher than print royalties with trade publishers. The Author's Guild says the standard trade publishing royalty rate is 25%.

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Standard of is 25% of NET so it the real comparison is 70% verses 17.5% not 25%.

I've copy pasted this from this link It's a post from Michael J. Sullivan who has been both traditionally and self-published. Here is what he had to say:


I'd just like to say a few things about this...Keep in mind that what they are offering here is digital only, and I would ask you to think carefully about the digital marketplace. *Distribution in brick and mortar stores is where publishers excel. It is nearly impossible for a small-press or self-published author to get shelf space so one of the reasons for going with a "big publisher" is for the infrastructure that they have in place to get you into these venues. *In this business traditional publishers can use their deep pockets (through co-op dollars) to get premium placement for certain titles.

For digital books it is actually a pretty level playing field. The exposure that a traditionally published book is the exact same as a self-published one. Amazon has sent out emails on my behalf (when I was self-published) and I never sent them a dime. *Amazon's model is based on performance and a good selling book gets the same exposure (through "also bought", "recommendations", "search algorithm" and "bestseller status) regardless of who posted the book.

Signing a "digital only" with a big six means you get 17.5% of list rather than 70% of list and books priced at $6.99 - $9.99 will sell fewer copies than those priced at $2.99 - $4.99. *In a "full publishing deal" you also get print sales and that helps to offset the difference income but Haper is offering only digital. *So what do you get for the difference in money:

• Cover design: which can be purchased for $150 - $350
• Editing: which can be sub-contracted to a freelancer for $350 - $1,000
• Their name on the title - yes this is worth something.
• Loss of control over key factors like pricing and categorization

Most full-blown (print, ebook, audio) debut fantasy contracts are $5,000 - $10,000 and only 20% earn out their advance. *My guess is the advance will be even lower because they are only taking one right (the most profitable right). *If we consider 7,500 copies (which is a good solid single in the debut author space) let's look at the income to the author:

• $6.99 priced traditional = $9,174 to author
• $9.99 priced traditional = $13,112 to author
• $2.99 priced self-published = $15,698 to author
• $4.99 priced self-published = $26,198 to author

Even after subtracting the production costs the self-published author is making significant more than going through the traditional route and considering that 50% of the Amazon Epic Fantasy Best seller list is self-published titles and 50% is traditional, it shows that self-published authors are selling at (or above due to lower list price) copies.

I'm not saying people shouldn't submit to this. But if you are selected...take a minute to consider that you have a "stamp of approval' indicating that a major publisher finds value in your work...and you should realize that they are not the only option. Try to balance the "excitement" of someone providing validation for years of work with the "business sense" to make sure you are maximizing your income. You are about to cross a threshold to earning from your writing - and as such you need to be aware of the various alternatives.

Thanks for that, Minwind, very useful info.

Michael Sullivan is an artist himself, and a damn good one from what I see.

I am not sure though where he gets his numbers for cover art. Michael is capable of not only creating his own cover art but he can also do the cover design and set up himself. For most self published authors though, they are going to pay two different people for this, or one person at a higher price.

I have checked with some well known artist that do freelance cover designs and it seems the minimum price they have set is about $3,000 which grants me both Print and E rights, as well as international rights to use the same art and design work. And trust me, there are differences in the cost of rights...

I am also not sure where Michael gets his low ball numbers for editing. $350 dollars? Well maybe for a short story. But for a longer novel, what is the depth of the edits at that low ball price and the experience of the editor.

Yes, you can find some good editing deals by experienced people. And yes, the prices seem to have come down because of the economy. But the numbers I have put together from researching independent editors seem to be at the minimum $1,000 to $3,500, depending on the level of editing needed. And there are different levels of editing.

And reading some of Michael's blogs, it sounds like he was a little surprised at the depth of the editing he got when he signed with a commercial publisher. I guess those $350 editors did not match up.

I am not putting Michael down as he is a good artist and has found a following for his writing. Still, not many self published writers are going to have the industry contacts, experience, or understanding of the industry Michael had prior to self publishing his own work. And Michael had some industry experience prior to publishing his own work.

I am not against self publishing, but Michael makes it sound easier than it is, and more profitable than studies have shown. Yes, a writer can make more per book sale with self publishing, but most self published writers will never sell 7,500 books in a single title and that is what Michael is talking about here, a single title. And yes, I know some have sold this amount and more, but they are the exception and not the general outcome.

thothguard51 said:

Michael Sullivan is an artist himself, and a damn good one from what I see.

I am not sure though where he gets his numbers for cover art. Michael is capable of not only creating his own cover art but he can also do the cover design and set up himself. For most self published authors though, they are going to pay two different people for this, or one person at a higher price.

I have checked with some well known artist that do freelance cover designs and it seems the minimum price they have set is about $3,000 which grants me both Print and E rights, as well as international rights to use the same art and design work. And trust me, there are differences in the cost of rights...

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Hey, thanks for the compliment. I was fortunate to do my artwork myself but I know a number of self-published authors who get great stuff inexpensively. For instance the $350 I mentioned...here is an example:



Also Joe Konrath's cover artist does them for $250 - $400.



These are just two examples. but if someone is charging you $3,000 for a cover you are paying WAY to much.

thothguard51 said:

I am also not sure where Michael gets his low ball numbers for editing. $350 dollars? Well maybe for a short story. But for a longer novel, what is the depth of the edits at that low ball price and the experience of the editor.

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Again, this is based off of first-hand experience. I've worked with a half dozen editors when I was self-published and this was the rate I was able to get them for a 100,000 word novel. Keep in mind this is copy editing (not developmental editing) but I contend it's not a good idea to try to buy structural editing because it is very expensive and I don't think you can find the right people with the right credentials to do so. In any case, I've always had a great structural editor from my wife and beta readers so I've never paid for that kind.

thothguard51 said:

And reading some of Michael's blogs, it sounds like he was a little surprised at the depth of the editing he got when he signed with a commercial publisher. I guess those $350 editors did not match up.

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I wouldn't classify it as "surprised" my Orbit editors did an excellent job...but it was mainly copy editing and proof reading. I'm absolutely sure that Orbit pays them more than my freelance editors got (and there were more of them). But I would say the quality between my released books and Orbit's are in the same ball park.

thothguard51 said:

I am not putting Michael down as he is a good artist and has found a following for his writing. Still, not many self published writers are going to have the industry contacts, experience, or understanding of the industry Michael had prior to self publishing his own work. And Michael had some industry experience prior to publishing his own work.

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I didn't take your comments in any derogatory way. And I'm happy to provide this type of additional information. I had NO industry contacts when I was doing my self-publishing - I "interviewed" all my editors and had them do sample edits etc so I built that resource from scratch. I'm not sure why you think I had "industry experience" before self-publishing my own work because I did not. It all started by reading Dan Poynter's Guide to Self-publishing and reading a lot of blogs and other books along the way.

thothguard51 said:

I am not against self publishing, but Michael makes it sound easier than it is, and more profitable than studies have shown.

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I don't think it is easier than it is. There are three aspects to a successful book and two of them an author is responsible for regardless of what path they take those two are: writing a quality book, finding an initial audience (to spread the book by word of mouth). The third item is producing a quality product (good cover, editing, description, and priced competitively). Some people (like me) can do that all themselves. Some people will hire others to do it for them. A third category want nothing to do with it...which is fine. And for them they should go traditional but they will have to pay a high price in doing so. It's no different than a CPA who works for a firm and collects a steady check verses one that opens their own office and hangs out their shingle. The power is in their hands...if they do things "right" they'll earn much more. If they don't they'll have to go back to the firm.

thothguard51 said:

Yes, a writer can make more per book sale with self publishing, but most self published writers will never sell 7,500 books in a single title and that is what Michael is talking about here, a single title. And yes, I know some have sold this amount and more, but they are the exception and not the general outcome.

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We aren't talking about "any" self-published author here. We're talking about ones that Harper Collins would sign. So by definition they have been "vetted" and we know they have a good book and that makes them 'the exception.' These types of authors WILL sell well. And 7,500 is NOTHING for people at this level of quality. I sold 11,500 books in a single month! And there are many self-published fantasy/sci-fi authors who have sold a lot more than I have: David Dalglish 200,000, J.R. Rain 400,000, H.P. Mallory 200,000. I choose those numbers because they are "decent numbers for traditional" but the self-published authors with quality books are blowing past those numbers in a blink of an eye.

Michael, thank you for responding. Like I said, I think you are a hell of an artist and you have found your audience in writing. Any aspiring writer would be proud to have the same...

As to response, I don't want to turn this thread into another self publishing vs commercial publishing thread. This thread is for an open call to Harper's Voyager. We have numerous self publishing threads in the self publishing forum if anyone wants to look up the pro's and con's.

I now return us back to our original thread...

thothguard51 said:

Michael, thank you for responding. Like I said, I think you are a hell of an artist and you have found your audience in writing. Any aspiring writer would be proud to have the same...

As to response, I don't want to turn this thread into another self publishing vs commercial publishing thread. This thread is for an open call to Harper's Voyager. We have numerous self publishing threads in the self publishing forum if anyone wants to look up the pro's and con's.

I now return us back to our original thread...

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No problem, I wasn't trying to derail the thread...just responding to issues raised. For the record I'm not pro- or anti- either. I see both routes as having positive and negative aspects and really it's just a matter of which works best for a particular author.

In this case...it's a kind of a weird hybrid, because it's not "full blown" traditional and because it is digital only it leans toward an area that is a "sweet spot" for self.

In any case...I'll just say also for the record, that I think people should submit, if for no other reason than to get the validation. If the offer is made, then they can research further if it is better to sign or go on their own.

E publishing usually, but not always, has a higher royalty than print. My assumption, and this is only an assumption, but if Voyager picks up the print rights, the contract will spell out exactly what the two royalty rates will be. If they pay an advance, the royalty rates will be lower.

We will have to wait till their submission page spells more in the next week.

One question, what is Harper's track record with marketing digital material? Is there one at all? Just curious how much they'll spend getting your name out there.

Since I've so far never gotten past the inquiry phase this is more of general knowledge rather than plan, but is an advance really a loan against future sales? If the book doesn't sell, doesn't it have to be repaid? Is it then reasonable to ask for a slightly higher royalty but no advance?

You don't have to pay back an advance, ever, as long as you've delivered the contracted work. It's a myth. Personally, I'd always go for the advance. Very few writers earn out their advance, but the money is still yours to promote the work and fund your career.

I look at it like this: The royalty is payment for the work you've done writing the book, and any royalties gained after are a nice bonus for having a book that's selling well. It's not a loan and if you see a publisher phrasing it like that then it's a major red flag.

But if you do earn out your advance, it makes your publisher very happy, which would be lovely.

thothguard51 said:

Someone can correct me if I am wrong...

The E-book thing should not be a deal break for a unpublished author. Why do I say that?

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But don't they say it's much better to have a "virgin" big traditional debut rather than some kind of small book deal first? And even though this one is a big publisher, the digital-only format still reads like a smallish deal to me.

Windcutter said:

But don't they say it's much better to have a "virgin" big traditional debut rather than some kind of small book deal first? And even though this one is a big publisher, the digital-only format still reads like a smallish deal to me.

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The deal is only small if other publishers have never heard of the imprint or the sales are almost non-existant.

FYI...

Their submission page is now up...

Good luck to all who enter...

thothguard51 said:

FYI...

Their submission page is now up...

Good luck to all who enter...

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Bam. Submitted. (I guess it's Oct. 1st somewhere in the world... It certainly isn't yet where I am. )