COMMERCIAL SUCCESS Re: Novel vs. Screenplay

briang · Sep 27, 2012

Recently heard what I believe is a somewhat compelling argument. Nearly everyone would agree that attaining "commercial success" with a book or screenplay is enormously difficult. To say that one is "easier" than the other is really a disservice.

OK, having said that: Recently heard someone contend the following: Because of the evolution of publishing over the past twenty or so years, getting a book published is easy. Self-publishing is one of the more dubious offspring of the Internet Age. But if you want your name on a "book" to display prominently on your mantle at your next dinner party, consider it done. Any reasonable chance of "commercial success"? Probably not, except for the few dozen copies you may sell from your Facebook page. You could be "discovered" as you hawk copies of your book on the subway or the nearest highway exit ramp. Then again, you may also win the lottery or get elected to Congress as a "write-in" candidate.

Or you could go the very popular "Vanity Press" route. Good luck finding someone honest with that endeavor. And again, any reasonable chance at "commercial success"? If you find a well-intentioned "V.P." publisher, your book will be listed on Amazon and available on KINDLE. And you could do well (although it's quite rare) -- after sizable costs that you will incur.

The best chance of "commercial success" is with a so-called "traditional" publisher - one of the "Big Five." But without an agent, you'll never get a large house to read your work.

Bottom line: Although there are many more books published than movies made each year, it seems you have a decent chance of getting someone (yes, admittedly, a low-lever "reader) to at least open the FEDEX envelope and give your screenplay an honest glance. Whereas you have almost no chance of getting a publishing entity - willing to print and promote your book in the mainstream sense - to even read your work.

Would appreciate opinions.

Thanks,
Brian

Cyia · Sep 27, 2012

Go check the number of screenplays registered with WGA each year, add that to the ones from last year and the ones from the year before, etc. Now compare that to the number of novels.

Novel writing is like paddling upstream. Screenwriting is similar, only you don't get paddles, there's a shark chasing you and a waterfall up ahead. Instead of a boat, you get a burnt-out log filled with rabid termites.

Hillgate · Sep 30, 2012

Commercial success is a side-effect of talent, not its primary driver

Hi - nowadays anyone can get a book to mass-market via Amazon for zero outlay other than writing it in the first place but that doesn't mean, as you've correctly said, that anyone will buy it, however good it is. However, at least it's available - distributed - in a mass market, so if it takes off, you get money.

The equivalent mass market, in film terms, for zero outlay, would be very difficult to achieve but it would be possible if you wrote a script and then made the film yourself without having to pay anyone, got it edited, sound designed and scored for nothing, produced all key art and then got it taken on by iTunes or Distrify or similar and/or accepted by a Film Festival (if it's very good). Again, no guarantee anyone will actually ever watch your film or even recognise it for the gem it may be. But, if it is very good and takes off, then it may be a commercial success. Slim, but feasible.

The traditional channels with film are being broken down, but somehow your screenplay needs to get into the hands of someone who can sell it to someone else or make it themselves. I became a producer as well as a writer to get this done. So far it seems to be working ok.

zander · Oct 2, 2012

Both are extremely difficult.

Having tried both, and having achieved moderate success in multiple areas (three screenplays optioned, acquired a manager, multiple development meetings... nothing sold) and novels (acquired a top-tier agent, on submission to the major publishing houses... nothing sold) I'd still say that writing and publishing a novel seems to be far easier than selling a screenplay and having it made into a movie.

There are just so many more books published than movies made - and there's so much more money at stake in those movies than in the books - Think about it: how much does a publishing house invest in a new book launch? 200K? 500K? How much does a typical movie cost to make? 30-100 Million? The stakes are so much higher in the film industry, so understandably they are that much choosier about their projects.

Really not a contest. I feel like I've been one phone call away from making it in the publishing industry, and about four phone calls away from making it in film.

Laer Carroll · Oct 2, 2012

zander said:
...how much does a publishing house invest in a new book launch? 200K? 500K?

Oh, boy, are you an optimist. Unless a publisher believes strongly that a book is going to be a bestseller, the amount they spend on PR will be a few hundred at the most. And for that hopeful bestseller? A lot less than 100K.

Sheryl Nantus · Oct 2, 2012

Laer Carroll said:
Oh, boy, are you an optimist. Unless a publisher believes strongly that a book is going to be a bestseller, the amount they spend on PR will be a few hundred at the most. And for that hopeful bestseller? A lot less than 100K.

Your source, please?

Thank you.

WriteKnight · Oct 3, 2012

"Invest in a new book launch" - could include the actual production run of the book. So that's going to be valued in the thousands of dollars. Don't think it would be in the 100k area though.

Major Publishing houses, don't spend a lot of money on PR. That's true. I've got a relation who just signed a sweet three book deal with a major publisher. The advance is great. BUT they're not going to fly her around for signings and such. They'll do very specific targeted marketing for her genre. You wont see television ads or anything like that.

A 'hopeful bestseller' on the other hand. A big name writer - yeah, they could EASILY spend over a 100k. Hell, media buys in a major market like NYC or LA or Houston, San Francisco, Atlanta - each one can easily be 100k for television and radio air time - not counting the budget to produce the spot.

But yes, I agree with the point that there's a lot less money involved in putting out a book, than putting out a film.

sekime · Nov 14, 2012

It's Amazon Studios the way to go for independent script writers?

https://www.amazon.com/?tag=absowrit-20

Gateway · Nov 14, 2012

sekime said:
It's Amazon Studios the way to go for independent script writers?

https://www.amazon.com/?tag=absowrit-20

I've heard cautionary tales.

Cyia · Nov 15, 2012

Laer Carroll said:
Oh, boy, are you an optimist. Unless a publisher believes strongly that a book is going to be a bestseller, the amount they spend on PR will be a few hundred at the most. And for that hopeful bestseller? A lot less than 100K.

The publisher's investment includes the author's advance, so it's much higher than 100K in many cases. And I know of at least 1 YA debut from last year that had a 6-figure promotions campaign (not sure how common it is, but it's listed that way in the ARC "6-figure promotions campaign)

Rossing · Nov 18, 2012

Cyia said:
it's listed that way in the ARC "6-figure promotions campaign)

This is almost certainly what's known in the industry as a 'lie.'

Cyia · Nov 18, 2012

Rossing said:
This is almost certainly what's known in the industry as a 'lie.'

Not at all. The book in question was featured in national magazines, on buses, even in Times Square, IIRC. It was not only featured on the publisher's website, but had its own app developed along with the book trailer.

The writer did extensive interviews and has been / is on national tours (I don't think she's gone out of the country for an appearance, yet.).

The publisher threw their full weight behind the book, and fast tracked it to make sure it didn't miss the "wave" it was a part of. (All told, it was on shelves less than a year from its purchase.)

Mentioning the size of the promotions budget in the ARC was an attempt to get even more buzz going ahead of time. It worked, which is why the book was optioned for film straight out of the gate.

Sizable promotions are as rare as sizable advances, but they happen.

Rossing · Nov 19, 2012

Then I stand corrected. But in many cases, publishers lie about the marketing campaign--and the print run, as well.

Which book?

Cyia · Nov 19, 2012

I'll rep you the answer, in case there's some rule against stating it outright.

Stacia Kane · Nov 20, 2012

Actually, you have an excellent chance at getting someone in publishing to read what you submit. If you submit your novel, it will be read*. Send an agent a query letter; it will be read. There are a couple of big publishers who accept unsolicited queries, and they read them. Most submissions include the first ten pages or chapter or first three chapters (depending on guidelines), and if the query is good those pages will be read. If the pages and query are good they'll ask to read the rest of the mss.

*They may well not read all of it. They'll read enough to tell them whether or not it's worth their time to continue reading. But they DO read submissions, every day.

Every agented, published writer I know got their agent by sending a standard query. Every non-agented published writer I know got published by submitting a standard query. The idea that no one will ever read your submission is a fallacy.

AdamJ · Apr 23, 2013

I became a member to post in this thread. Because I have been writing screenplays for more than ten years and I think I just gave it up to pursue a career as a novelist / "traditional" writer.

I hated writing a script, and, if it didn't sell, basically having nothing to show for it. I also hated feeling like, even though I am a writer, I wasn't being viewed as a "real" writer, I couldn't go after writing day-jobs. I stopped writing short fiction. I felt like my prose has taken a huge step back. And I really never cared for reading scripts. I just wanted to make movies.

Im excited but there's also going to be a period of re-education. Getting used to different verb tenses and writing styles will be a challenge, if however liberating. Hopefully not too long though.

LIVIN · Apr 24, 2013

briang said:
, it seems you have a decent chance of getting someone (yes, admittedly, a low-lever "reader) to at least open the FEDEX envelope and give your screenplay an honest glance.

If you fedex someone a screenplay, expect it to be returned un-opened.

Melville · Apr 24, 2013

LIVIN said:
If you fedex someone a screenplay, expect it to be returned un-opened.

Well, only if a signature/receipt is required and so it can be refused. If it's simply left at the door, it will end up promptly in the trash/recycle bin, unopened.

AdamJ · Apr 24, 2013

LIVIN said:
If you fedex someone a screenplay, expect it to be returned un-opened.

That's really part of the problem, isnt it? Screenplays arent meant to be read, they're meant to be seen.

Melville · Apr 24, 2013

AdamJ said:
That's really part of the problem, isnt it? Screenplays arent meant to be read, they're meant to be seen.

Nope. Screenplays -- a writer's medium -- are meant to be read, and good ones are great reads.

Movies -- a director's medium -- are meant to be seen.

AdamJ · Apr 24, 2013

Melville said:
Nope. Screenplays -- a writer's medium -- are meant to be read, and good ones are great reads.

Movies -- a director's medium -- are meant to be seen.

Not really. Screenplays aren't usually read for sheer enjoyment, nor are they readily available to do so. They're not on shelves, for instance, unless they've been made into a film. Furthermore, scripts aren't typically fun to read. Some are, most aren't.

The general "audience" will never, ever read a script. They will only see the movie. Big fans and aspiring screenwriters may eventually read it, but most screenwriting is seen only by the studio-employed "reader"/gatekeeper.

dpaterso · Apr 24, 2013

Just saying, quoting and responding to something that was said last September might not be too productive. Especially if the poster hasn't been active lately. Always worth checking the original dates on posts/threads.

-Derek

LIVIN · Apr 24, 2013

AdamJ said:
Not really. Screenplays aren't usually read for sheer enjoyment, nor are they readily available to do so.

WOW. Really? The ignorance in that POPS off the page.

AdamJ · Apr 24, 2013

LIVIN said:
WOW. Really? The ignorance in that POPS off the page.

No ignorance. This is not something I'm inexperienced at, mind you, just because I recently registered. Screenplays are a blueprint. Yes, they CAN be enjoyable and the best ones often are, but the general public? Nope. They're not interested. Select screenplays may sit on the shelf at your local Barnes and Noble but NO script is put there unless it's already a film - and typically a very, very successful one.

A lot of that has to do with the fact that screenplays are sterilized by nature. They're not meant to be about the words, they're meant to be about the story and the characters and the dialogue and the ACTION.

A good novelist, for example, can rescue a crap story - or no story - by the quality of writing. But Hollywood gatekeepers are not interested in the quality of writing, they're looking for marketable material that won't cost them their jobs when they recommend it. They're looking for an intriguing set-up in the first five pages. They are NOT looking for something that is a great piece of literature, they are looking for dollar signs.

gambit924 · Apr 24, 2013

I think all ya'all are right that it might be easier to get published than produced. Trying to find a production company on your own is like trying to break into a bank vault. Then again, I don't have that much experience with it. Only that I have been trying and have failed for the most part. I have decided that after the next failed submission, I am going to go back to writing books, probably of the young adult variety. As much as I love screenwriting, and find it easier to do, I think there will be more success for me (this is certainly not true for everyone) if I go back to doing other kinds of writing.

COMMERCIAL SUCCESS Re: Novel vs. Screenplay

briang

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Hillgate

On location

zander

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer

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Holding out for a Superhero...

WriteKnight

Arranger Of Disorder

sekime

Writing and learning

Gateway

You Are My Density

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Rossing

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Rossing

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

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Girl Detective

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LIVIN

Melville

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Melville

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