Vocabulary too high?

scarecrow · Oct 18, 2012

How do you know if the vocabulary in your WIP is on level?

I don't want to dumb down the book but my children and husband are constantly telling me that children won't know what a word means. I am not looking them up. I just have a large vocab. myself. The book is upper MG and I believe the context of the word often explains the meaning.

Is there an online resource that will allow you to put in a sample and get a reading scale? Am I over thinking this?

SheilaJG · Oct 18, 2012

If you use Microsoft Word, you can do a grammar check, and it spits out a reading level score at the end.

You have to set it up to do this. Under "Word," select "Preferences" then "Spelling and Grammar." If you check mark "check grammar with spelling" you can also check "show readability statistics." It will then give you the Flesh-Kincaid grade level of the document.

Hope that helps!

Torgo · Oct 18, 2012

SheilaJG said:
If you use Microsoft Word, you can do a grammar check, and it spits out a reading level score at the end.

You have to set it up to do this. Under "Word," select "Preferences" then "Spelling and Grammar." If you check mark "check grammar with spelling" you can also check "show readability statistics." It will then give you the Flesh-Kincaid grade level of the document.

Hope that helps!

It's not really very useful, though, F-K.

There do exist vocab lists on the internet - here's one I just found, for 6th grade - but I think the best thing to do is just to read books of the same level, and talk to kids of the right age, and get a feel for your audience. No algorithm is going to be able to replace that.

mccardey · Oct 18, 2012

scarecrow said:
I don't want to dumb down the book but my children and husband are constantly telling me that children won't know what a word means.

Also, don't think of it as "dumbing down". It's just simplifying (if it's needed at all).

Good luck with it.

RedWombat · Oct 18, 2012

I include words like "cryptozoology" and "lycanthropy" in mine. Mostly they pass without comment. If I think it's a deliberately imposing word (like cryptozoology) I'll lampshade it, though, and have the nerdy character say it and the hero go "Crypto-WHAT now?" and then include an explanation.

I think kids are usually fine with a big or strange word as long as it's an interesting word. But a lot of that is also going to depend on what the editor thinks is appropriate, too.

fusdal · Oct 18, 2012

In a sense, isn't it a good thing to challenge young reader's vocabulary to a certain extent?

mccardey · Oct 18, 2012

fusdal said:
In a sense, isn't it a good thing to challenge young reader's vocabulary to a certain extent?

I have a special bookcase with children's books from 1900 onwards. I love those books. Back then, they knew how to challenge a young reader's vocab! :evil

MsJudy · Oct 18, 2012

You can use the Accelerated Reader levels as a guideline. Vocabulary is one of the things they include in the measure, and it's tested by having kids fill in the missing words in sentences/short paragraphs. So kids who have a large vocabulary and understand how to use context clues score higher, and are matched to more challenging books.

Pick some books you think are at about the level you write, and see how AR ranks them.

The link and a discussion of the program is in this thread:
finding word counts and RenLearn

For example, Harry Potter books go from 5.5 to 7.2ish.
Charlotte's Web is a 4.4.
The Golden Compass is a 7.1.

So...it very much depends on the age of reader you are targeting. If your story is cute, charming, silly, likely to appeal to younger readers, then controlling the vocabulary may be important. If your story is more edgy, or dark, or intense, or complex--if it would appeal to a more mature reader--then your vocabulary can be more mature, as well.

"Kids" come in a wide range. You'd be amazed at the words that even very young kids might know. I remember my son learned "topiary" from a cartoon before he could even read. And used it correctly.

My suggestion is to post a sample in Share Your Work and let us have a look. Many of us are not only writers but also parents and teachers. We'll be able to give you some good feedback about your work.

Smish · Oct 18, 2012

I think it's an issue of voice, honestly. If the language is too advanced, the voice isn't likely to be MG appropriate. Get the voice right, and the vocab probably will be, too.

Not to say that it's not sometimes totally fitting with the voice to have some college level vocabulary. Take a character like Emma Jean Lazarus, for example. :Thumbs:

deblyfe · Oct 19, 2012

I've had people in different critique groups comment on my MC voice in my MG works. I have changed my protagonist's age many times as a result and tried to continue with the voice for that age. I also bought the book Writer's Word, and find the grade level assigned to words in there does not feel quite right for my character or the the age. Though, the book does help me find simpler words.

Someone once told me if you use a word a child may not know, then provide explanation. My MC talks about a glacier in my ms. Her teacher asks if she knows what it means. She gives a child's perception of the definition (which is factually correct, but not said in a sophisticated way). Her teacher says she's right. So the kids in class (and reader) now know what this word means.

A several times published MG author told me just last weekend that for voice, he just uses a universal voice, one that is almost timeless. He also remembers his MG childhood well. Even so, he has let reality go and lets the characters be their own.

In the end, I tend to agree that reading published works in your genre, maybe on similar topics or themes, might be the best guidance.

scarecrow · Oct 19, 2012

Thank you all for your replies. Sheila, you put me in a helpful section of word I have never been before. I changed several options and found more errors than I care to admit. The flesh-Kincaid score was 4.4.

I think my biggest problem is my kids have reading levels that are much higher than their grade levels and they were complaining. This may be a pick on mom thing that I will turn into expand your vocab thing. One of the comments I hear is- people don't use words like that, it's old. (Hmmmm, like your mom) I believe the word in question that time was cusp as in on the cusp of the Purple Mountains.

RedWombat, from those two words alone I think my youngest would love your book.

I have been watching the AR of all the MG books that come through the house. I put mine on the same level as Sea of Trolls verbally, so I think I'm OK.

Voice may be the issue. As I edit I am trying to make sure I don't get lost in the words and loose sight of the audience. In any case I think the book will allow the younger readers to expand their vocab, and if the Betas have an issue I'll address it then. I'll stop worrying for now.

Thanks again

Dahlia Legacy · Oct 24, 2012

I have the same thing with a kids story that I "publish" (if by publish you mean make public on YouTube) online, and as long as you don't use words that would raise your ratting level in a tv guide I don't think it's something you have to be overly worried about. Unless you're writing for kids that are just learning how to read then keeping it simple helps.

Smish · Oct 24, 2012

I don't think I understand what you mean, Dahlia. I'm not an expert on TV ratings, but I believe only major curse words would raise a tv rating? And that's a different issue than the one being discussed in this thread.

Dahlia Legacy · Oct 28, 2012

Smish, Violence and references to adult things are also involved, it's not just about swear words. Shows like NCIS are tv-14 mostly because of the violence they show and innuendos, if they do swear I don't notice it at all. Like I said if you're not writing books to teach reading then I see it as a good thing if you throw in a few words that kids might not know, so that way they end up knowing them. I just really don't like the idea of dumbing down books, because even when I was a kid if someone did that to something I was reading, I'd feel more insulted and like adults are treating me poorly because they think I’m stupid. That's just how I feel. There are words you shouldn't use, like swear words and questionable words that can mean other things, but not using the word ethereal (for example) just because you think they won’t get it, just feels wrong to me. If they don’t know the word that’s perfectly ok (as an adult I don't know all words.), maybe now they do because the only way you increase your vocabulary is to be exposed to words you might not know. Granted this is partly an emotional argument, but it's also an intellectual argument because the more people that know words the less likely we are going to lose them.

MsJudy · Oct 28, 2012

scarecrow said:
One of the comments I hear is- people don't use words like that, it's old. (Hmmmm, like your mom) I believe the word in question that time was cusp as in on the cusp of the Purple Mountains.

One aspect of the discussion is that the usage of words also changes over time. To me, using "cusp" in that way does sound old-fashioned, a little awkward. I would probably use "peak" or "top" or "ridge."

But it very much depends then on your voice and characters and style. I write Victorian fantasies, so I often deliberately use old-fashioned words, but not ones that are so ancient a modern kid wouldn't know them. For example, instead of "boy" I might use "fellow" or "bloke" or "lad." They fit the voice better, but aren't impossible for a kid to understand.

It's also about balance. A challenging word here or there won't limit comprehension. Kids can use context clues or ask a grown-up or just skip over it and keep reading. But if there are a lot of obscure words, then the meaning of the story will be lost.

And of course, that balance will be different for every kid. An avid reader with a large vocabulary will know most of the words. A reluctant reader or a kid who speaks another language at home may not recognize quite a few words that the rest of us might consider quite common. You as the writer can't control that, so you just have to do your best to write the story the way that seems best to you, and then get feedback from others--other kids, other writers.

scarecrow · Nov 7, 2012

Thanks for the response Ms. Judy. My children are avid readers with large vocabs. That is why they are making me worry. I also grew up with my grandmother. So I have a generational vocab issue. Some regional words slip into my conversation and writing as well. My husband and children are constantly calling me on it. They also just like to one up mom, so I never know how serious they are. I decided to stop worrying about it and see what bothers my betas, when I get to that point.

DavidBrett · Nov 9, 2012

RedWombat said:
I include words like "cryptozoology" and "lycanthropy" in mine. Mostly they pass without comment. If I think it's a deliberately imposing word (like cryptozoology) I'll lampshade it, though, and have the nerdy character say it and the hero go "Crypto-WHAT now?" and then include an explanation.

I think kids are usually fine with a big or strange word as long as it's an interesting word. But a lot of that is also going to depend on what the editor thinks is appropriate, too.

Exactly this: in the Enigma Files, Karl is the Mulder of my pair, but there is no Scully in terms of opposing intellect - just Mason, an average (if somewhat lovably sarcastic) twelve year old American kid. So when Karl tries to explain telekinesis, pyrokinesis, cryptozoology, deviants, the way human vision works, paranormal activity... Well, the list goes on. Needless to say I had Karl explain it as succinctly and clearly as possible, whilst remaining fun to read with Mason butting in to add sarcastic comments. All my betas found the informative bits great, so using strange words, terms and the like is fine as long as you make the effort to clarify.

Dave

Sarah_Will_Write · Dec 8, 2012

Ditto on what others say, but one thing I'd be careful of is whether the dialog is coming from your characters. If they're kids, it might be problematic because they'll come across as older than they're supposed to be, or their actions/dialogue could be inconsistent (ie, act younger but then speak like they're older).

Do you have any middle grade-age kids who would be willing to read it for that? That's probably the most accurate indicator!

ArachnePhobia · Dec 8, 2012

Sarah_Will_Write said:
Ditto on what others say, but one thing I'd be careful of is whether the dialog is coming from your characters. If they're kids, it might be problematic because they'll come across as older than they're supposed to be, or their actions/dialogue could be inconsistent (ie, act younger but then speak like they're older).

Do you have any middle grade-age kids who would be willing to read it for that? That's probably the most accurate indicator!

Might be, but it depends on the kid, too. My 14-year-old MC is an amateur animator, and wouldn't balk at dropping a word like "rotoscope" or "Plasticene" into a casual conversation (and also spots an important clue when she recognizes a lump of shiny gunk as metal clay). If there's no believable reason a particular character would have encountered and remembered that particular word, though, there might be a problem.

ETA: She doesn't actually use the trademarked brand name Plasticine in the story, in case anyone's concerned. She certainly knows what it is, though.

Tigerlilly79 · Dec 9, 2012

As a teacher, I say as long as it's not outrageous, challenge them. Kids don't need to know what every single word means as they read. Sometimes I come across words that I don't know the meaning of. I teach my students to use context clues to figure out the meaning and if it's a word that's really bothering them, look it up.

When we do our weekly reading stories one of their activities is to make a list of words they come across that they are unfamiliar with and they have to use the words around the word to figure out the meaning.

Reece10 · Dec 18, 2012

Hi,

I came across this site recently that you upload your file to as plain text and it will give you a number that refers to the grade level of your words.

Register for free and then upload your file for results.

The Lexile Analyzer:
http://www.lexile.com/analyzer/

Reece :snoopy:

bershka · Dec 18, 2012

^ Thanks for the link, Reece10!

It's a bit cumbersome to cut and paste the text into a *.txt* file especially if there is a 1,000 word limit with a free account. But it's interesting to know the grade level

SHRous · Jan 4, 2013

I highly recommend using the lexile analyzer. You can do it for a few pages to get the general lexile score. Since most standardized reading tests now use lexiles, it will be an accurate test. (I used to train teachers on how to use lexiles to boost reading achievement by matching student scores with text. It worked wonders for students who had reading difficulties.) Lexiles examine word choice and sentence length as well as sentence structure, not just vocabulary.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 5, 2013

I do not use words because I know them, but because the POV character would know and use, and just as important, any word he would naturally encounter during the course of solving whatever problem he faces in the course of the story.

The character must always be true to themselves, and even the narrative should reflect this.

It isn't dumbing down, and it applies to adult fiction, as well as children's fiction.

scarecrow · Jan 7, 2013

Thank you to everyone for your responses. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to the boards but my mouse and key board are having communication problems with my hard drive.

My MS is not in first person. I believe the voice of the characters are genuine and age appropriate. It is my voice I am worried about. My children inform me that no one uses half the words that I do. I have informed them that I am not speaking another language. I blame my mother. I get my large vocabulary from her. She likes to read.

The lexile analyzer is an excellent idea. I will definitely use it.
Thanks again.

Vocabulary too high?

scarecrow

If I only had a brain...

SheilaJG

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

mccardey

RedWombat

Runs With Scissors

fusdal

mccardey

MsJudy

Smish

Reads more than she writes.

deblyfe

scarecrow

If I only had a brain...

Dahlia Legacy

Mistress of Ink.

Smish

Reads more than she writes.

Dahlia Legacy

Mistress of Ink.

MsJudy

scarecrow

If I only had a brain...

DavidBrett

Alas, poor Yorick, he fed me 'nanas

Sarah_Will_Write

ArachnePhobia

Tigerlilly79

Maybe I should see someone . . .

Reece10

bershka

SHRous

Jamesaritchie

scarecrow

If I only had a brain...