What's the scoop on editing???

This is a problem that many writers struggle with, Baywitch. I'm not a big fan of paid editing (and I mean that in the way that you're describing -- grammar, spelling and composition). Paid book "doctors", that offer critical looks at plots, characterization and such are a different thing. There's a long-standing tradition of this sort of "critique." But see, the problem with hiring an editor to fix the grammar is that what happens afterward? The publisher's editor will want edits to the book, too. But they won't make the changes. They'll tell you what to do and YOU have to make the changes and resubmit the manuscript. What then? Will you have to hire another editor to fix the edits? If so, there goes your advance.


As for grammar in dialogue -- it's true that most people don't speak grammatical English. However, your narrative needs to have proper grammar, and that's over half of your book. I think that supplemented high school English is fine, since that's all I have. But note that I say "supplemented." It's up to the writer to work to improve rusty skills. Take the time to read grammar books and APPLY them. "Elements of Style" by Strunk & White is one of the leading books on the subject, and the Chicago Manual of Style is pretty much the industry "bible" on punctuation. I spent hours and hours reading these and then applying the rules to my manuscripts before I submitted and it worked.

Yes, it's easier to consider throwing money at the problem, but it doesn't FIX the problem. It only delays it, like buying a term paper but not reading it or reading the research in the footnotes. You'll pass that day's homework, but at the end of the term, you'll fail. If you want to spend money where it will count, consider hiring a grammar tutor to teach you the rules. You'll only have to pay once, and every book thereafter will benefit from the money.

Good luck with the decision. It's one we all make!

Personally, I don't recommend hiring editors. It doesn't help in the long run. OTOH, if you're looking at writing only one book for a specific purpose, never to write another, then it might be a good solution.

But here's the thing with long-term writing goals in mind.

If you hire someone to do your editing for you (all "you"s in this post are the generic, non-specific "you" ), it's not likely that you'll learn how to make your writing any better. You'll churn out the same quality, book after book, that still requires editing.

But. If you learn how to edit your own, then guess what happens? Your next book's first draft becomes better than the first, the fifth is better than the fourth, the tenth is better... rinse and repeat. If you're in this for the long haul, you're much better off learning how to edit yourself. That, and it saves a whole lotta money.

So how do you learn?

I would suggest that, if punctuation, spelling, and grammar are weak areas, take some refresher courses. Whether that's through ConEd or the local college or online or by reading Strunk & Whyte's whattheheckisitcalled, it probably doesn't matter much.

I would also suggest that you critique other people's writing. It doesn't matter if you've never done it before - everyone has to start somewhere and guess what? When you crit someone else's novel, you learn A LOT about writing, what works, what doesn't, and how to improve your own. In fact, it's been my experience that people tend to learn a lot more by critting other people's stuff than they do by reading the crits that other people give them.

Crits can be varied, anything from an overall this plot doesn't work for me because to a line crit analyzing every single cotton pickin' grammatical error or weak verb choice. The more you do it, the better you get at it.

As you do crits, you'll find that it becomes a lot easier for you to notice the problems in your own work, therefore editing becomes much easier, and guess what? Your first draft improves dramatically, too.

Good luck!

I'm all in favor of taking a grammar refresher course somewhere. Anywhere. Even if you have a "book doc," correct the mishaps in your manuscript, there will be rewrites, and you'll be corresponding frequently with your editor. You'll need your grammar/punctuation/spelling skills every step of the way. I don't think anything turns an editor off more than working with a writer that doesn't have the basic skills down pat. This might sound a bit harsh, but having read my share of scripts (in my case), I get really ticked when writers don't even show the courtesy to master basic grammar and formatting skills.

Look, selling any kind of material -- articles, novels, short stories, screenplays -- is very tough, and there's plenty of competition out there. Don't let something as easy to correct as grammar/spelling/punctuation take you out of the running.

I've heard folk say that as long as the story is really good, that's all that matters. Only to a point. The reality is that there are many really, really talented writers out there who not only have a great story sense but also all the technical skills needed to tell that story.

In my opinion, it's only to your advantage to work on perfecting every aspect of your writing skills.

For those interested in editorial services, look at http://www.writersconsultant.com/

I know Martha quite well, and her husband's resume is phenomenal (Pulitzer judge!) as is her own. They're both successful novelists and know their stuff.

And no, I don't get commission!

As well as the books, there are a lot of great grammar and editing sites you can peruse. Here's one I like:

http://www.dianahacker.com/writersref/

Baywitch:

I do belive the rules of grammar can be thrown out the window in writing dialogue. I don't know a single person who speaks in complete, grammatically correct sentences. And if they do, it certainly speaks volumes about their character. Usually we speak in fragments! And we often interrupt! Spelling might be a little dicier though. Those "doncha's" and "gotta's" get on my nerves, but that's probably just me.

Even though the replies to this thread are intended for Baywatch, I must say they have encouraged me to rethink my own search for an editor. It also explains the virolent response I recieved to my initial query for finding one - I've order the Chicago Manual of Style and Elements of style per C Cathy's suggestion.

Thanks to all.

cleoauthor said:

Those "doncha's" and "gotta's" get on my nerves, but that's probably just me.

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It isn't just you. I don't mind it a little, but a lot of authors seem to go overboard. The problems I have are more the last example: fugetaboutit. I haven't seen that one in particular, but I've seen similar ones. If I have to stop the flow of my reading to say the dialogue aloud, then I consider it a poor choice that could have been served by another word.

Brandi

I learned it without, but the copyeditor puts it back in every time. Sigh. I do try to do it with both s'es, but I usually forget. But it's also not critical. You'll be forgiven on this one if you forget.

I've also found "Self Editing for Fiction Writers" to be amazingly helpful when reviewing what I've written. It's helped me tighten up my writing a great deal.

At some point you're going to have to learn to write.

Try starting here:

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/

Baywitch said:

I haven't seen fugetaboutit either. I picked up those two books and I have a question already . It says Charles's throat is correct and not Charles' throat. I always thought it was the latter, not the former.

In Strunk & White

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There are many, many aspects of writing that are matters of style and usage. This is one of those issues; whether a singular possessive with a terminal s is s' or s's is an issue that is a matter of style -- publishers/publications have their own preference about these cases where there may be more than one "correct" way. Pick one and stick to it; consistency can be more important than "accuracy."

Regarding Strunk and White--remember that it's a book that was designed to be used in undergraduate composition classes. It's directed towards academic essay writing and not fiction or other sorts of writing.

If you want a good grammar refresher, look for the manuals used for college Freshman comp classes; I'm fond of Diana Hacker's books (A Writer's Reference, or The Bedford Handbook) but really they're all very similar. Don't buy one new--go to your local college bookstore or used bookstore and get a used copy for much much less. These have been used in the thousands so it's not hard to find one.

Whatever happened to the grammar checker that comes with the better word-processing packages like Word and WordPerfect? They may not have all the answers, but they will point out most errors and include suggestions for correcting them. That will give anyone a reasonably clean manuscript, at least one that is good enough to present to a critic or writing partner.

I refuse to critique anyone who doesn't have the decency and pride to run work through grammar and spell checkers before showing it around. If I, as a fellow group member, will not critique something filled with basic errors, think how a first reader or publisher would react. They won't give you a second chance.

A good critique group, with members who have better-than-average English skills, should catch other errors. Good fellow members will also catch flaws in plot and character development. Choosing a critique group is an important part of a writer's ability to grow and learn.

As Quidscribis said, line editing the work of others is excellent training. All too often, I find myself correcting something for someone only to find I make the same error in my own work.

While dialogue must sound appropriate for the character, it must also follow punctuation rules.

It's a good idea to read through books like Strunk & White every so often, as a reminder of the rules. Chicago Elements of Style is also a good one; however, if you write non-fiction it might be an idea to look at the Associated Press style book.

I find the grammar checkers in both Word and WordPerfect to be flawed as far as writing fiction. Different rules apply. There used to be some pretty good shareware programs that dealt with the peculiarities of fiction, but I haven't seen one lately.

I think critique groups are good for SOME writers. But not everybody is willing or able to be part of a crit group (whether because of lack of local writers, or a "not willing share" mentality.) Personally, I've seen more of the crit groups fail than succeed due to personality conflicts, differences in writing style, or creation speed.

To me, ultimately, a writer needs to be able to perform to grammatical standards without the assistance of third parties. Eventually, it all comes down to one person -- the author.

JMHO!

editing

Baywitch, I just hired an editor in CA to provide manuscript doctoring and revision guidance for a serial killer book I just wrote. Not cheap but he has connections and is a nice guy, very well respected in the genre and well known. This is my fourth book and I decided I would need the assistance if I were to have a shot at becoming published.

Good Luck

What's the scoop on editing

Baywitch:

In my neck of the woods, typists charge $3/page!