The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

[triceretops]

No, it's still up, Jim. But in all fairness it's a thread discussing another vanity publisher/distributor, or something like that. At first I couldn't believe what I was reading until I moved up-thread.

Just today I sent my final revisions of a proof for my second book to a publisher that will do my second book and I will market the two books together. I don't think it would have done any good for me to get years more of rejections vs getting my first book out. Th problem in traditional publishing is a capacity issue. They can/will only put out x number of titles a year and those have to have a high degree of probability to return a certain profit. Hence the new/unknown author gets shut out.

It's not a capacity issue primarily. It's a quality issue first and foremost. The slots are filled by the best books found, and there are less of them than you think. High profit return is the motivator, yes. Are you implying that unknown authors get shut out because books are supposed to make a profit? New authors are not getting kicked to the curb--they WANT the next big discovery. Read all the agent blogs--they're looking for you, you little unpolished gem, you.

There is a market for new and unique vs. the formula shop writers that tap the same audience book after book. Some guidelines practically direct the very style and tenor of what is acceptable to the degree of shutting out the innovation of the author.

What in the heck is a formula shop writer? You bet--genre books do tap into a certain buying public--a big buying public. Don't even say that artistic style is being stifled here. The unique innovation of the author is exactly what the publisher is scouting for. It's called talent, and it's never shut out. And...don't even think about romance writers with the breath of that same sentence, if that is what you were implying.

The truly big stars in publishing have their own voice and that became a self genre. Many of these people were way off the radar when they broke through.

The genre existed BEFORE those big writers ever got in there with their voice. A few of them have created tag words to new sub-genres, because they had such an impact on the market. Political thrillers? Was that Clancy or Grisham? I don't understand the radar comment.

Many of the new top fixtures like Zane did their own publishing and carved out their own audience and then they dictated to the majors when they came calling after being rejected. A PA author will break through with a PA tilte or another title.

I don't know what Zane you're refering to here, but I don't think he dictated much of anything to the majors, but might have been grateful that they picked him up. ALL writers get rejected. Get over it. I truly hope a PA title gets picked up by a major. But this great white hope you're looking for will not carry the rest of you along with it.

When this starts to happen, then tenor of the business will change slightly and maybe PA and others will be the farm system that is scouted for the next big thing.

I don't PA will be a farm system for major league publishing. They have their own slush piles.

Overall sales success will tell the tell. If it sells 10,000, 15,000 or 30,000 it can't be all bad.

Do you think PA will distribute those kinds of numbers to meet the demand, when they can't even supply a dozen books to a store for a signing, nor fill a non-author order of any kind, to any venue? PA couldn't even supply a library with several copies when they were repeatedly asked for them.

tri

[Nexusman]

I feel compelled to share this link I found on the PAMB:

http://pawebsite.weblications.us/

On the PAMB, the maintainer stated he had purchased 100GBs of webspace and was willing to allocate 3MB for each PA author. This means he has enough space for 33,333 sites minimum.

-Nick

[James D. Macdonald]

Ah, found the thread:

An outfit I never heard of wants to republish a book containing about 50 stories, including one I wrote, and intends to place it in 10 bookstores plus some other equally good stuff.

Poor boy has run into Bookman Marketing/Airleaf/Bowker Book Club. Don't worry, fellah. We've heard of 'em. Well-known scam. They go fishing for authors in PA's waters. Want to know why?

[Christine N.]

I can think of three reasons why people go with PA

a) they found them and PA got back to them before anyone else
b) they were rejected a million zillion times and couldn't take a hint
c) they were rejected a handful of times and gave up.

All of them are really a shame, b/c PA snags more than a few unsuspecting and unsavvy authors b/c of their speed. The second group needs to swallow their pride and realize that they need to rewrite their work OR they've written the wrong book and start over. (It's not a jibe; I can't think of a single writer I know that doesn't have a trunk novel.) If you don't have the gumption to toss a book and write a new one - you don't belong in this field. It might take a while to let it go, but you'll feel better.

The third group is the one for whom we have the most hope. If they find places like P&E or take the time to head to the library to look at their copies of Writer's Market, they could submit to hundreds of places. Perhaps even be accepted.

It all makes me sad.

Originally Posted by Christine N.

c) they were rejected a handful of times and gave up.

That, I'm afraid, is the group I belonged to.

Of course, part of the reason I gave up so quickly was that, like you pointed out, I was not savvy in the Industry. I had been told, by numerous people--and sadly, took it to heart--that if a couple companies rejected my work, I should give up. This is one reason I now despise non-writers giving me advice about writing.

[Christine N.]

I think MANY of the PA authors fall into groups A and C. I see it all the time on the PAMB - "No one would accept our work", and I wonder if they're swallowing PA's hype or got rejected by the first five agents/publishers they submitted to.

I would also add a catagory d) Someone recommended PA and the unsavvy, unsuspecting writer trusted them.

[Susan Gable]

The truly big stars in publishing have their own voice and that became a self genre. Many of these people were way off the radar when they broke through.

Nora Roberts, one of the best selling authors out there, started by building her career in category romance before moving to single title. She din't create the genre, though she surely mastered it, and still kept her own voice and her own unique stories.

Many of the new top fixtures like Zane did their own publishing and carved out their own audience and then they dictated to the majors when they came calling after being rejected. A PA author will break through with a PA tilte or another title.

Zane wrote niche stuff that had a huge potential audience. (For those who don't know, Zane does erotica/erotic.) Somehow Zane managed to tap it. This is much like the success of Ellora's Cave, who discovered this huge, untapped audience, and set out to serve it. Neither Zane nor Ellora's Cave "carved out" an audience -- the audience was already there, but no one was serving them.

If you look around now, many publishers are jumping on the erotic bandwagon these days, now that the audience has been proven.

This is a big difference from a PA author being able to break through with just any PA title. First of all, Ellora's Cave was/is an edited product. They threw a lot of marketing behind their product. They wanted to sell to readers, not family members.

Had Zane published her stuff with PA, she wouldn't be writing for one of the big publishers now because there's no way her books would have made a big enough splash to attract their attention. (PA just can't keep up with a huge demand for the product.)

Susan G.

[Merricat]

From the PAMB, emphasis mine:

This business not only it tough, it is very esoteric, and nothing is harder to promote and sell then poetry. There just isn't any market for it and most publishers won't even look at it. Check the Writer's Market. Even most of those with the broadest range say "No Poetry." PA is one of the few who will even publish it, but then, they leave all the responsibility for selling it up to you and mostly rely upon the author to buy enough copies to recoup some of their production costs. It is in no way a "vanity pub," but I do think they rely upon the vanity of their authors to help them make ends meet. There's nothing wrong with that, because they are still making a lot of people's dreams of being a published author come true--without any up-front investment.

I wonder how long this will stay up.

[Christine N.]

The circular logic never ceases to amaze me.

Vanity is where you pay, but PA is NOT vanity, but you have to buy your own books to succeed, but they're not vanity...

A caucus race if ever there was.

Originally Posted by Christine N.

The circular logic never ceases to amaze me.

Vanity is where you pay, but PA is NOT vanity, but you have to buy your own books to succeed, but they're not vanity...

A caucus race if ever there was.

I think part of the problem, Christine, is that PA appeals to the emotions more than they do to the logical self. I've noticed that emotion seems to have a stronger influence on me, than does cold, hard fact. I did not want to believe that a friend would suggest a scam company to me, and I allowed these emotions to rule over how I did business with PA.

And of course, when I found out that they were giving my book "The chance it deserves," I went immediately on an emotional high. It is hard to convince an emotional human being, in what little experience I have, that facts are really facts.

Like the old saying goes, "Hindsight's 20/20, but foresight is nearly blind."

[triceretops]

Quote:

" I was happy to be supported for my first two books. the second was the begining of a five book series, but Publish America has chosen not to persue any more from me. I had just submitted my second book of the series. (A book about New York caves and tunnels). I am 150 pages into the third book of the series (estimated 400 pgs), and don't have anywhere to send it. I have put a lot of work into trying to market my books, but it's hard on a budget of $100 a month after bills. WHAT DOES SOMEONE DO NOW. It's all I have to go on. any advice could help?!?!?!"

It was suggested to this poster that if he really believed in his book that he should continue sending it out to all the subsidy publishers out there. Both of these PA authors believe that there is nothing out there unless its Publish America, or another vanity or subsidy. Somebody's trapped in a bubble here.

Actually, this sounds like a very good niche non-fiction book that would be ideal for regional publishers, university or small presses. Most of those outlets do not require an agent. Our AW member Underthecity has done well with the exact same concept, only his was about Cincinnati, and he sold three of them in a row. How about a regional publisher in New York that doesn't require an agent.

Yet, I still don't understand the "series" remark as far as this non-fiction book goes.

Tri

[Christine N.]

Maybe it's like, you know, one book about a specific bunch of caves, then another area, etc.. they go together b/c they're all about the same subject.

I agree, a regional publisher would probably grab it if it's written well.

[Aubrey]

Ah, after five days lurking the boards (three lurking this addictive behemeth of a thread), I finally decided to pop my head out and say hi. So hi!

I first learned of our dear old PA when Atlanta Nights came out as a hoax. There was some mention of it on a group called Fandom Wank. In the comments thread I got quite an earful about what a scam this company is. Ever sense I've found myself flinching whenever I hear mention of the company or see a book by them.

I see I am one of the rare lucky ones who avoided this scam and I'm eternally grateful. I did fall for that Poetry.com thing when I was a teen though (but never sent for the "anthology"), so I can't say I wouldn't have fallen for this as well if I hadn't known better and it had still been named EricaHouse. The name PublishAmerica just sounds too suspicious to me, and for good reason.

In case anyone wants a laugh, here's PA's ad in this year's Novel & Short Story Writiers Market:

Publish America
P.O Box151, Fredrick MO (Shouldn't that be MD?) 21705. (301)631-9073. Fax: (301)631-9073. E-mail: (Otherwise known as the only contact they'll use) acquisitions@publishamerica.com. Website: www.publishamerica.com. Contact: Melissa Crook (sic), Jeni Watterson, Miranda Prather. Estab. 1999 (and changed names about 4 times since then).
Publish America is a traditional (carrying on the tradition of snake oil production) royalty-paying publisher. Publishes paperback (Gasp! I thought they were "softcovers"!) originals and e-books. Books: Print on demand (wow they admit it!); perfect bound (minus the 'perfect' part); color and black and white illustrations. Published 800 debut authors within the last year. (Send up the red flags!) Member: PMA; AAP. (What are these groups?) Distributes books through (pay attention to that word!) Ingram, Bowkers and promotes through press releases (AKA ads).
Needs: (Insert every genre known to man here) Published The Mind's Eye, by Hilde Aardal; I Eat Just One, by Zaynab Armstrong-Jones; I Can't Wait Any Longer, by Shelby Barnhart. (Never heard of any of these folks, have you?)
How To Contact: Accepts unsolicited (and even unfinished) mss. Query with SASE. Accepts queries by e-mail, fax, phone, mail. Include estimated word count, brief bio, list of publishing credits (which is generally very short, I'm guessing). Send SASE for return of ms or send a disposable ms and SASE for reply only. Agented fiction 5%. (I'd kill to meet these supposed agents) Responds in 1 week to queries (with a letter or acceptance); 2-4 weeks to mss. Accepts simultaneous submissions, electronic submissions, submissions on disk. Sometimes comments on rejected mss. ("I'm sorry, we reached our quota for today. Please try again tomorrow!")
Terms: Pays 8% royalty (when it feels like it). Publishes ms within a year after acceptance. Ms guidelines for #10 SASE.

Sorry for all the commentary, I couldn't help mocking it. Does anyone know why these morons are listing with WM? WM always struck me as rather legit. They do have a complaint procedure in there where you can compile all your paperwork from the publisher (PA in this case) and send it to WM, but I have no idea whether that's effective or not. Has anyone ever tried it?

[xhouseboy]

fear has taken over lol ....


well I told you guys that my pdf proofs were taking a long time to come back right? they came back with more errors sent back then what was sent in. I am no longer anxious but scared. I have been working to hard to see it end like this. I am trully sad. I will feel better when this is fixed. But some of my poems were cut short, some of the mistakes were not even fixed. My editor was sick and maybe she was rushing she does have a job to do. I emailed her and told her to take her time better to wait and see greatness than to rush and to see nothing that really matters....

well can yall please make me feel better....


I have til the 21 (2 business days to fix these) if yall only knew how long it took me to fix you and your ....

another 6 am night tonight fixing these poems


i know pa got me but i am still.......

It can't be worth the hassle.

This post got a few responses. One author's cover had Amazon spelled with an X instead of a Z. Already gone to print. Another had 'lied' in every instance when it should have read 'laid'. And so on and so forth.

They'd be better off printing their own POD books at Lulu. At least they'd keep control of the project and wouldn't be constantly scurrying around fretting over the miserable failings of this absolute bunch of amateur, cowboy, immoral, unethical, money-grubbing, soul-destroying tossers.

[Nexusman]

PA made it into the Writer's Market? Even if it's just one of the sub-market books? That's a serious blow to WM's credibility.

-Nick

[James D. Macdonald]

Terms: Pays 8% royalty (when it feels like it).

More important: Pays 8% on net.

Member: PMA; AAP. (What are these groups?)

PMA: Publishers Marketing Association (requirement for joining: send in the fee) and Association of American Publishers (requirement for joining: send in the fee).

Agented fiction 5%. (I'd kill to meet these supposed agents)

Fee-chargers all.

[BeeBomb]

Aubrey, Hilde Aardal does?/did exist and I have her book. She is one of the unfortunate people to have cancer (perhaps has already expired because this was in 2002.) We corresponded on several occasions and she is/was truly a gifted artist with her photography. I haven't heard from her in a long while and miss her wit. Although her book was not well read by millions of people, she wrote it to get through the never ending pain. Believe me, she had stamina.

BeeBomb

Originally Posted by BeeBomb

Aubrey, Hilde Aardal does?/did exist and I have her book. She is one of the unfortunate people to have cancer (perhaps has already expired because this was in 2002.) We corresponded on several occasions and she is/was truly a gifted artist with her photography. I haven't heard from her in a long while and miss her wit. Although her book was not well read by millions of people, she wrote it to get through the never ending pain. Believe me, she had stamina.

BeeBomb

I remember her! Ever since she left PA (her cancer kept her from doing the required marketing for her book, and they released her from her contract, if I remember correctly) I have missed her tremendously. She had a good soul, and I sorely miss her uplifting nature.

I hope that, if she's still around, we might hear from her again. I thought she was cool.

[BeeBomb]

Hi, Sean!

Hilde's book, The Mind's Eye, is about two lonely people falling in love over the internet, making connections after many email sessions, working through their personal demons and mistakes of past relationships and family ordeals, and then taking a look at what their relationship couldn't be...called it quits.

Hilde did have her contract cancelled because she was unable to market her book like she wanted to do. At one point, she wanted to be on Oprah to tell people with cancer...all was not lost. Her approach to life was remarkable and always with an upbeat nature. Anyone with interest can see her art if they do a search for Hilde Aardal. Her drawings are crayon and watercolor but are from photos she took while on long walks in Oslo, Norway. Although she says she was an amateur with her works, she was far from amateur with her life.

Have a safe week-end.

Joyce

[Aubrey]

Well apparently they did have a notable author beyond the much touted Jamie Farr. I stand corrected. Great, another ailing person that they exploited. It's so sickening!

[NancyMehl]

Originally Posted by SeanDSchaffer

I remember her! Ever since she left PA (her cancer kept her from doing the required marketing for her book, and they released her from her contract, if I remember correctly) I have missed her tremendously. She had a good soul, and I sorely miss her uplifting nature.

I hope that, if she's still around, we might hear from her again. I thought she was cool.

Unfortunately, it appears Hilde passed away in 2005.

Here is a link to a cancer message board that addresses her death.

http://cancer-network.ryze.com/

Nancy

[BeeBomb]

Thank you, Nancy, for letting us know about Hilde.

To Aubrey: Hilde was not exploited! No one knew about her cancer until SHE said something about it. Unfortunate that she went with PA? Yes, but I feel she accomplished what she felt necessary at the time. Can't fault her for that. What she exploited was her life and how precious it was. She wanted to let people understand and embrace the time allotted.


Joyce

[Mystic]

Nexusman wrote:

"PA made it into the Writer's Market? Even if it's just one of the sub-market books? That's a serious blow to WM's credibility"

That is where I learned of PA. I sent queries from the WM and the Christian Writer's Market Guide. PA was listed in both, but it was still Erica House at the time.

Nancy,

Thank you for letting us know about Hilde. She shall be sorely missed.

[PVish]

Over on the PAMB, a new author asks

How many of you are a member of the Authors Guild?
I made a general inquiry regarding membership, since their membership is based upon our contracts with the publishers, and the publishers themselves, not on artistic merit. Since they refused my membership, I'm going to send them a copy of my contract, along with my book and a letter explaining that the publisher shouldn't matter, the vechile in which you write is not important, your work should stand on its own, not the name-plate for which the book is written under. I hope to change the face of publishing one of these days. . .
Any opinions?

IMHO, the answer to the question: probably 0. Sending the contract ain't gonna help.

And in a separate thread, Carl puts forth these ideas:

A statistic often surfacing in literary magazines, through letters to the editor or articles is that only two percent of all of the thousands of manuscripts submitted to literary agents and editors are accepted and the vast majority of that two percent does not sell. Ninety-eight percent of manuscripts produced never see the light of day.

The problem with lack of sales within the two percent acceptance rate may be attributed to the agents and editors satisfying their own tastes rather than a national readership.

Huh? Agents and editors only sell/publish what they want to read? And he continues:

I believe this is the genius of the Publish America organization. Publish America, not being author, genre, or niche biased, publishes a vast array of authors, and subjects, with local, regional, national and over-seas interests.

Publish America cannot satisfy all authors' publishing needs; however, they do play a big part in bringing to the reading public a large number of the 98% of manuscripts that otherwise would never be published.

If the books aren't in bookstores and few people have ever heard of them, how are they brought to the reading public? Oh—via bookmarks and fliers.