The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

[Mystic]

What might put more pressure on PA and other publishers of the same ilk would be for some writers to put together a free email newsletter that gives only facts about publishing with no publisher names given--ever

Rita G. sends out a monthly newsletter. She started it about 2 years ago and many former PA people receive it. New ones (PA members) probably do not know about the newsletter because she was banned a few months after the newsletter started. I still receive the newsletter and it has some great information in it.

[DaveKuzminski]

Another thing that might help is if a number of organizations could be contacted to give them information on these scams. A lot of their members are the kind of upright people who get taken by these schemers. If the major religions along with AARP and other clubs, 4H, all the scouting organizations, and what have you were given the information, it might not be long before the scams saw a significant drop in their incomes because of those groups disseminating the information to the local level nationwide.

Even if writers just inform their own local organizations and churches, that would make a dent in the number of victims. If each writer produces a brief article and offers it to the local paper, it will add to the overall effect.

We writers number in the thousands. We are in virtually every state and province in North America. We can reach out. You don't have to name the scammers, but you can tell interested people where to check for more information once they get on the Internet.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

A buddy of mine sent me the quote below from the PublishAmerica Message Boards:

"I got my first royalty check today for $52.42. They said I sold 45 books. I don't know if that is good, bad, or indifferent. But it was a thrill."

That comes out to $1.1648888 per book. Can anyone in the know answer this person's question?

Gary Rogers

[smsarber]

Originally Posted by TracySutterer & GaryRogers

A buddy of mine sent me the quote below from the PublishAmerica Message Boards:

"I got my first royalty check today for $52.42. They said I sold 45 books. I don't know if that is good, bad, or indifferent. But it was a thrill."

That comes out to $1.1648888 per book. Can anyone in the know answer this person's question?

Gary Rogers

For PA, hella good. On a related site I read PA's "bestselling" author had sold like 25 books in one sales period. T.S. & G.R., check out my blog on my website. (The link is right below you---no, over there!)

[allenparker]

Originally Posted by smsarber

For PA, hella good. On a related site I read PA's "bestselling" author had sold like 25 books in one sales period. T.S. & G.R., check out my blog on my website. (The link is right below you---no, over there!)

This is false. I sold more than that on most of my royalty statements. One of the Independant authors sold over 200 in one period.

As far fetched as it seems, there were authors that sold over 1000 copies. Most were in the early days. Most were able to get in bookstores.

It would be very difficult to do this now with all the information about PA out today. Simply walking into a store with a PA book causes many bookstores to cringe. It wasn't that way even 4 years ago. You could ask for a book signing at a local or large bookstore and would usually get it.

just some thoughts...

[tlblack]

Originally Posted by allenparker

Most were in the early days. Most were able to get in bookstores.

I think that placement in book stores probably varies depending on location. I got laughed at by one book store manager for asking about signings and book store placement. I was told by the local papers here that unless the book was on a shelf in book stores, they weren't interested. This was in 2002. I have yet to see a PA book in any of the book stores where I shop.

[Rolling Thunder]

Originally Posted by smsarber

For PA, hella good. On a related site I read PA's "bestselling" author had sold like 25 books in one sales period. T.S. & G.R., check out my blog on my website. (The link is right below you---no, over there!)

I think I saw the same site and if I remember correctly the statement was the 'average' sales came out to 25 books.

ETA: I'll review my history log in FF again, but I think it was linked to this site: http://www.wizardessbooks.com/html/PA_stories.htm

[James D. Macdonald]

Average sales work out to 75 copies/book. I expect that most of those come in the first year.

PA plays the averages, just like casinos play the averages. An individual might win a whole pile of money from one slot machine, but on that same day, overall, the casino will have made money on its slot machines.

But there are no "average" books. My guess is that most of the sales come from very few of the titles, and most of those titles are niche fiction and non-fiction.

[Sparhawk]

Originally Posted by allenparker

This is false. I sold more than that on most of my royalty statements. One of the Independant authors sold over 200 in one period.

As far fetched as it seems, there were authors that sold over 1000 copies. Most were in the early days. Most were able to get in bookstores.

It would be very difficult to do this now with all the information about PA out today. Simply walking into a store with a PA book causes many bookstores to cringe. It wasn't that way even 4 years ago. You could ask for a book signing at a local or large bookstore and would usually get it.

just some thoughts...

I was set to be in several of the Borders stores in New England. I had worked for six months making phone calls/E-MAils and marketiing promo stuff for my PA gem. The Regional Rep actually read my book, liked it (despite the typos) and wanted to carry it.... until she saw the price.

The pricing point killed the deal. Borders stated that if I could lower the price of my book by $6.00 from $24.99 to $18.99 they'd reconsider carrying it in some stores around my area, but even at that point the price was still high. PA wouldn't budge. They (PA) don't want to sell books to the book buying public. They don't want to sell books to book stores. PA wants to sell books to thier authors, plain and simple; nothing more nothing less. Anything and everything else PA claims is BULL.

They can preach the "Bookstores are our number one customer" or "Every day book stores order thousands of Publish America books" lines til thier blue in the face. Until PA can submit actual, verifiable, documentation to prove this it's simply heresay. I'm confident that book stores could easily refute this allegation.

As for the big PA sellers; how many of their sales are self purchases?

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Originally Posted by Sparhawk

Snipped...

As for the big PA sellers; how many of their sales are self purchases?

I don't know about all the big PA sellers, but I remember one in particular who sold some 2,000 copies. Every single one of her sold copies, she bought from PA.

So though she might have sold so many copies, she did not receive any royalties for them at all.

What bothers me the most about her situation, is that even though she believed in her book and her cause, PA could not have cared less. That has always made me squirm.

[Sparhawk]

Originally Posted by Sean D. Schaffer

I don't know about all the big PA sellers, but I remember one in particular who sold some 2,000 copies. Every single one of her sold copies, she bought from PA.

So though she might have sold so many copies, she did not receive any royalties for them at all.

What bothers me the most about her situation, is that even though she believed in her book and her cause, PA could not have cared less. That has always made me squirm.

Man, that's awful. Therefore she made no royalties, based on my understanding of how PA works. The lions share of the money on her sweat and hustle was made by Publish America not the hard working Author. That's just so wrong... on so many levels

[LloydBrown]

We believe the current record-holder for PA sales to be 5,200 by one Neo Franco Cantu. This number is PA's own claim. Even the author didn't realize it was that many, which casts some doubt on its veracity--wouldn't he have known how many were reported on his royalty checks?

The 1,000-seller club at PA is very, very small.

With real publishers, the Venn circle that represents the 1,000-seller club and the Venn circle that encompasses all published books are visually indistinguishable.

[Ken Schneider]

Not to mention how many Cantu bought himself.

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by Sparhawk

They can preach the "Bookstores are our number one customer" or "Every day book stores order thousands of Publish America books" lines til thier blue in the face.

I suspect that they're talking about books by the one-each, sold to Aunt Sue at the special-order desk at Borders, not (despite the false and misleading impression they're trying to give) by bookstores ordering books to put on the shelves.

I'm sure that all orders for all titles through all bookstores combined come to a greater number than any author has bought of his own title with his own credit card.

[smsarber]

Originally Posted by smsarber

I don't know where that info came from, but on the back of my PA "Royalty Statement"(laff, coff, gag) it says that some things may not show up because bookstores like B&N have up to 3 months to pay or longer. PA may pay on pending books, but not mine. Hell, they don't even pay me for sold books.
SMS

Originally Posted by Christine N.

Regular publishers don't pay their authors on books that haven't yet actually been paid for.

If PA is paying royalties on books ordered, by like, say a bookstore or Amazon, who doesn't pay up front but every few months or so (I doubt they'd make an exception for such small amounts as they probably owe PA), they shouldn't be paying the author until they have money in hand for the book. Then they could avoid all this back charging stuff. Most big places have that 'return against returns' thing, and like I said, my publisher lets me know how many are 'pending' - out but not paid for. They don't PAY me on pending books, because there's no guarantee they'll be bought!

But since they're supposed to get paid before they ship on all books ordered from PA, why would there be returns? How many people bring back books, except when its a duplicate copy or something? Is there really a bunch of people who return books they didn't like?

I don't return books even if I didn't like them all that much.

I made a mistake. I answered this post and said PA doesn't pay on unsold books. Then I read (instead of skimmed) my royalty( ) statement.

Frequently Asked Royalty Statement Questions:
What is "Returned Books":PublishAmerica allows bookstores to return unsold copies for reimbursement. Royalties for those bookshave been extended to you in this or a previous statement. Because the returned books were in fact not sold after all, we have refunded all monies received, and those un-earned royalty amounts are now subtracted from your gross total. If this line item does not appear on your statement, none of your books have been returned to date. Bookstores haveup to 18 months to return unsold books.

Now, if they are stupid enough to pay you for something, then they should have to bite the bullet. (maybe that in itself wouldn't be a bad idea!!!) Sorry for my previous misinformation, and I am removing that post, so as not to confuse anyone.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, when I made that statment, I forgot that only books bought through Ingrams are returnable. Therefore, I wonder if books bought on Amazon.com and or/Borders, B&N, etc...a returnable? I'm guessing no, since those are probably ordered from PA and not Ingrams. Anyway, books bought by those outfits aren't paid to PA for up to 3 months, and ordered one at a time, once the customer orders and pays.

What they're paying the author for, then, is books ordered by bookstores. Those come from Ingram, and are therefore the only books that are returnable. Right? Okay, so PA is paying royalties on books that they themselves don't have money for yet? That's silly. Who does that?

No other publisher does that. Ever. It's not a smart practice, and hell for the bookkeeper.

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by Christine N.

No other publisher does that. Ever. It's not a smart practice, and hell for the bookkeeper.

Remember that no one at PublishAmerica has ever worked at a real publisher, or is competent to be a publisher.

[Christine N.]

And maybe I'm being thick, but why does PA not pay on books ordered through those online bookstores, being that those ARE Publish On Demand, meaning that Amazon doesn't request the book from PA until there IS a demand for one? So they're paid for, just the money not in PA's hands. Why doesn't PA extend the same royalty courtesy for those, instead of the '90 days to pay' song and dance?

(Not that it's a lie, necessarily; I know those places do, in fact, drag their feet when it comes to paying their accounts)

So, they won't pay royalties on a book ordered online, and thereby probably not returnable, because PA doesn't yet have the money, but they WILL pay royalties on a book ordered by a bookstore, but with the possibility of being returned?

How much sense does that make? Or am I missing something? DO the bookstores, in fact, pay up front? But by the nature of being ordered through Ingrams, that makes them returnable, and I'm sure Ingrams doesn't ask for money up front. So...

Wow, I just made myself very dizzy.

[LloydBrown]

Originally Posted by Christine N.

And maybe I'm being thick, but why does PA not pay on books ordered through those online bookstores, being that those ARE Publish On Demand, meaning that Amazon doesn't request the book from PA until there IS a demand for one? So they're paid for, just the money not in PA's hands. Why doesn't PA extend the same royalty courtesy for those, instead of the '90 days to pay' song and dance?

(Not that it's a lie, necessarily; I know those places do, in fact, drag their feet when it comes to paying their accounts)

Oh, it's a lie. They receive the money; they just choose not to pay royalties on it if a simple lie will keep the authors quiet.

[smsarber]

At 03:43 PM 3/3/2007 -0500, you wrote:

From Steven Michael Sarber
"A Beautiful Way to See"
ISBN: 1-4241-2737-8
Okay, my first royalties statement, last Sept. was for six books. Fine. This one is for three. I know positively that there were more than three books sold. I purchased two myself from a B&N bookstore (NOT an online store) last October. My Grandparents have prdered more than three, MONTHS ago and never recieved any books. My Aunt and Uncle ordered two or three, and have not recieved a single book. This was all done in JULY 2006.
I look forward to a quick and truthful response,
Steven Michael Sarber
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

Dear Author:

We feel confident that the royalties information you received is correct.

Please send proof of the sales which you claim were made. We pay royalties on all books for which we have been paid. We will be happy to research further when given such proof.

Separately, you are always welcome to review our royalties calculations in person at our offices. If this is something you are interested in, please contact royalties@publishamerica.com about an appointment.

Have a good day,
Gail
PublishAmerica Royalties
royalties@publishamerica.com

That was my original e-mail, and their answer. I responded with: "yeah, I'll fly out to Maryland on my $2.18 check" I mistakenly said in another post that it was $2.84. I am pretty disgusted by the whole thing, and I wouldn't even cash the damn check if it weren't for the principal of the matter. How am I supposed to prove my family ordered books, and do they really think I still have the receipt for the ones I purchased? Of course, since I paid cash they would say there is no proof it was even my receipt. *^!# it.
It won't discourage me, though.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Originally Posted by smsarber

That was my original e-mail, and their answer. I responded with: "yeah, I'll fly out to Maryland on my $2.18 check" I mistakenly said in another post that it was $2.84. I am pretty disgusted by the whole thing, and I wouldn't even cash the damn check if it weren't for the principal of the matter. How am I supposed to prove my family ordered books, and do they really think I still have the receipt for the ones I purchased? Of course, since I paid cash they would say there is no proof it was even my receipt. *^!# it.
It won't discourage me, though.

What interests me about this whole thing, is the fact they don't try to use records to back up their argument that the books were not sold.

Gee, I wonder why that would be? Couldn't possibly be they're trying to hide something from you, by placing the burden of proof on you, could it?

They should have the records in their possession. The fact they're not willing to prove the books were not sold with solid evidence, tells me they know fully well the books were sold.

All in my humble opinion, of course.

[smsarber]

Originally Posted by Sean D. Schaffer

What interests me about this whole thing, is the fact they don't try to use records to back up their argument that the books were not sold.

Gee, I wonder why that would be? Couldn't possibly be they're trying to hide something from you, by placing the burden of proof on you, could it?

They should have the records in their possession. The fact they're not willing to prove the books were not sold with solid evidence, tells me they know fully well the books were sold.

All in my humble opinion, of course.

Very true, they don't give you any records, and they hope that most of us aren't smart enough to start digging. My prediction: Within a year they will be crippled. When the word has reached far enough. So spread!

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Every six months the war of words and accusatory remarks end up on this and every writers forum about PublishAmerica concerning royalty statements. The problem lies within the mentality of that company - they will not let a CPA examine their accounting books. Only the author can examine the accounting books. It is going to take a court order for PublishAmerica to hand over the two sets of books they keep. Anyone interested in filing the papers and spending upwards of about one thousand clams?

Gary Rogers

[smsarber]

Originally Posted by TracySutterer & GaryRogers

Every six months the war of words and accusatory remarks end up on this and every writers forum about PublishAmerica concerning royalty statements. The problem lies within the mentality of that company - they will not let a CPA examine their accounting books. Only the author can examine the accounting books. It is going to take a court order for PublishAmerica to hand over the two sets of books they keep. Anyone interested in filing the papers and spending upwards of about one thousand clams?

Gary Rogers

No, but I'd like to send a thousand clams to their director, after the shells were dipped into e-lax!
No, truthfully, I'm not ever expecting any kind of satisfaction that way, as I've said, I don't get anywhere as the "little guy". But maybe I can help warn someone else before they fall into the bear-trap.
HINDSIGHT: A 7 year contract- what was I thinking?!?!?!?

[James D. Macdonald]

Steven, listen to me. Take your records. Take 'em to arbitration.