The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by vicki

First-time authors must know that the world is not waiting to buy their first offering.

This is just plain not true, Vicki. Where do you think all the second-time authors come from?

Somewhere between ten and twenty percent of the novels shelved in bookstores are first novels.


(If, however, you mean that many authors' first attempts aren't publishable, you'd probably be right. But why would you want to publish an unpublishable book? How does that help you as an author? What reward does it give to a reader?)

[janetbellinger]

Dear endless

I posted that message before I emailed you. I posted it when I saw that when I saw that my PA first post had post had been cut and pasted here. I wish you the best of luck, too, although it sounds like you are already established. Congratulations. As I mentioned in my latest email, I am glad to hear you're having success. Best wishes for the future.

Janet

[Bebbet]

Yay! The letter informing me my rights are mine again landed on my doorstep today!

[DaveKuzminski]

Originally Posted by Bebbet

Yay! The letter informing me my rights are mine again landed on my doorstep today!

Congrats!

Any guesses whether we'll hear from John and Sheila about receiving their own rights back? If they do, it might be the wakeup call they needed.

[xhouseboy]

Thanks for the warning. I will not go over there anymore. I have seen what they can do, and I almost joined them, but in the back of my mind, a voice whispered: What are the motives of these people? They profess they are to Expose PA, but it runs deeper than that. They really want to humiliate PA writers, in order to feel better about their own writing, and perhaps to curry favour with competing publishers.

Humiliate PA writers? PA has already cornered the market there. How much more humiliating can it be to turn up at book signings without books? To be treated like **** off their shoe when disagreeing with their business practises. To be held up for further ridicule on those very PA company boards, and in full view of those deemed your fellow authors. Many more instances spring to mind - far too many to mention.

Life and writing is all about learning, and how could we ever learn, if we never made mistakes? Who do these people think they are, anyways? Is their own writing perfect? I would like to sell more books too, but look at it all as a process, in which I grow as a writer, and hopefully get some exposure, and respect as such.

You don't learn by making mistakes and merely accepting it. You learn by acting upon those mistakes, making sure you don't make the same mistake again. Respect is something you will never get from PA. Exposure is something you will have to do for yourself. The only exposure PA is interested in is the size of your bank balance. As for growing as a writer, how is that possible with PA? They are known to accept first time submissions from authors with barely a grasp of the craft, and as a result any further growth is stunted. PA is, at most, a shortcut, a painkiller, a journey's end when the journey isn't yet nearly complete. Further growth is not possible with them. Your journey ends there.

The last time I looked, we writers were covered under the HRA, along with all other human beings. Now, if a certain person wants to cut and paste this, and mock me with it, let him. I believe the U.S. slander laws are similar to Canadian ones, in that it is illegal to hold a person up to ridicule, through writing.

Try running that one past anyone in the media industry who has got there through sheer hard work and merit. Just as a brief example, Guy Ritchie's last film was deemed by many as a load of bollocks. I liked his earlier ones, though (apart from that mess with Madonna in it). As a consequence, he was relentlessly ridiculed on a Global scale. You wanna bet old Guy's not hiding away in a dark room pontificating about directors having the same human rights as the rest of us. I'm betting he's learning from his last mistake, and already planning his next move. I actually find it quite offensive for the HRA to be quoted in this context. I'm more inclined to worry about the rights of children dying every day of starvation.

[vicki]

Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald

This is just plain not true, Vicki. Where do you think all the second-time authors come from?

Somewhere between ten and twenty percent of the novels shelved in bookstores are first novels.


(If, however, you mean that many authors' first attempts aren't publishable, you'd probably be right. But why would you want to publish an unpublishable book? How does that help you as an author? What reward does it give to a reader?)

The first Anne Tyler (who is one of my favorite living authors) novel I bought was "Breathing Lessons" -- her eleventh novel! I have since bought eight Anne Tyler novels.

If a writer of such quality can write ten novels before attracting a first-time buyer of one of her books, then writers should just keep on writing and eventually they will gain the readership they seek -- no matter how long it takes!

[DaveKuzminski]

Originally Posted by vicki

The first Anne Tyler (who is one of my favorite living authors) novel I bought was "Breathing Lessons" -- her eleventh novel! I have since bought eight Anne Tyler novels.

If a writer of such quality can write ten novels before attracting a first-time buyer of one of her books, then writers should just keep on writing and eventually they will gain the readership they seek -- no matter how long it takes!

You're basing acceptance by a publisher upon your own criteria rather than theirs. Obviously, Tyler impressed a publisher and enough other readers long before you happened along. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been an eleventh novel for you to find.

[icerose]

To answer all PA supporters.

Who are we?

We are ex and current Publish America "authors."

Why do we do this?

Because we are ashamed. Because we have been ridiculed, by the people on this board? I don't think so. By the very people you defend every day.

If we wanted to humiliate you we would come right out and do it. Your humiliation is our humiliation. Your pain is ours. We have been through it and a heck of a lot longer than any of you.

We are moving on, we are releasing our bad experiences through this board, both for theraputic reason, for the ability to move on, and to hopefully help future authors from going through the HELL we have.

There are a few published authors who have traveled the hard road, they are donating their time to help us see what publishing should really be like, how it really works. Most of us who signed up knew nothing about the publishing industry, many still don't. These authors are sharing with us, and for that I am grateful.

There will always be empty chairs here for any who wish to join us. All of us are in various stages of moving past all this.

Some in bankrupcy BECAUSE of PA, trying to promote it, spending all that time and effort. Some never want to write again because of what happened, others are working on their craft and moving forward, trying to make a real career.

Then there are some who aren't ready to move on. They are deeply injured and need the support of a group. I come because even though I am released, I feel a deep desire to reach out to those authors who are still stuck with such an abusive company.

No one deserves this.

Does it mean we think your books are bad? Well we haven't read them. Are they ready to be widely read? Plenty of your own posters have answered that question. They weren't properly edited. They need that before being released to the public. Sure the other publishing houses publish books with errors but not as many as PA and they certainly don't ADD errors. Publish America does.

Well I'll shut up now. I gotta get back to writing, have a deadline.

Sara

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Originally Posted by icerose

To answer all PA supporters.

Who are we?

We are ex and current Publish America "authors."

Also interested outsiders who, not having tangled ourselves with PA, were horrified to learn about PA and want to see it taken down before another author gets taken for a ride.

Great post, Icerose.

[batgirl]

Originally Posted by vicki

Maybe it is time to coin a new term for publishers who publish POD books without charging a fee upfront. J. D. Macdonald used the term “down back” to describe how authors pay to be published by PA.
Until a new term is coined, PA can claim that it is not a vanity publisher – it just doesn’t fit the definition.

I think there is a new term - author mill.
Which is not to say that the old shoes don't fit well enough to still be worn.
And hi, Vicki!
-Barbara

[Nexusman]

Originally Posted by NicoleJLeBoeuf

Also interested outsiders who, not having tangled ourselves with PA, were horrified to learn about PA and want to see it taken down before another author gets taken for a ride.

Great post, Icerose.

Likewise. This thread is worth it if it even keeps one person from signing.

-Nick

[DaveKuzminski]

Originally Posted by Nexusman

Likewise. This thread is worth it if it even keeps one person from signing.

-Nick

I can guarantee you that this site and others are responsible for much more than saving one writer from PA and some other scams. I dare say if one folded, PA would experience a surge in submissions.

[AnneMarble]

Originally Posted by xhouseboy

As for growing as a writer, how is that possible with PA? They are known to accept first time submissions from authors with barely a grasp of the craft, and as a result any further growth is stunted.

Not to mention known for accepting a submission from a plagiarist, someone who copied text from cancer prevention sites all over the web, pasted it into his document, and submitted it. I can understand writers being loyal to PA because they think it gave them a chance, but I can't understand them being loyal to PA for not detecting such outright plagiarism.

And yes, I know plagiarized text gets through commercial publishers as well. But those cases are never that blatant. (In fact, they are usually detected only because a fan read both of the books close together and recognizes a few similarities.) A commercial publisher wouldn't have touched the anti-cancer book -- it wouldn't have gotten past the lawyers.

Originally Posted by xhouseboy

PA is, at most, a shortcut

But it's like the "shortcuts" my friend and I used to take in the grocery store when we were in kindergarten. We had little or no understanding of distances, so we would wind our way around five shelves when we could have reached our parents more quickly by turning around and taking ten steps down the aisle.

[Gabriele]

Could it be that PA threatens authors who start to express doubt by telling them they'll take the book off Amazon and Ingram but won't give the rights back? And thus some authors jump back into the basket and purr like good little PA kitties?

[DaveKuzminski]

Originally Posted by Gabriele

Could it be that PA threatens authors who start to express doubt by telling them they'll take the book off Amazon and Ingram but won't give the rights back? And thus some authors jump back into the basket and purr like good little PA kitties?

I can assure you that PA has definitely used that tactic in the past. They used it on one occasion to shut down a site, Writers' Island, operated by one of their authors when it dared to permit real discussion about PA.

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by vicki

If a writer of such quality can write ten novels before attracting a first-time buyer of one of her books, then writers should just keep on writing and eventually they will gain the readership they seek -- no matter how long it takes!

Vicki, please. Think about what you're saying.

At one time Anne Tyler was a first-time writer, with just one book out. That book was in bookstores, and was promoted by her publisher. People found and read that first book. She had first-time readers right from day one. She wrote a second novel, and a third ... and so on. I'm certain she has been picking up new fans all the way. It's an accident of history whether those first-time readers bought her first book, or her fifth, to begin.

You found that book in a bookstore, didn't you? You didn't buy it at a signing, right? She wasn't born famous, or published. Think about how you yourself buy books. Think about how the books you buy and read got to you.

Do you see PublishAmerica, or PublishAmerica's business model, anywhere on that path?

[Gabriele]

Originally Posted by DaveKuzminski

I can assure you that PA has definitely used that tactic in the past. They used it on one occasion to shut down a site, Writers' Island, operated by one of their authors when it dared to permit real discussion about PA.

Lurkers,

do you really want to go with a "publisher" that uses your book to blackmail you into silence?

And those who're in that messed up situation. Move on if possible*, write another book, get it published with a real publisher.

And then send an exemplar to the PA staff with a little note, "Hey, that's what a real book looks like."

* I understand that it is a psychologically difficult step to overcome dissappointment and move on, and that those who planned on a series that they now can't sell because the first book is tied up, are in a bad situation. But try to ger out of it and move on. Don't allow PA to blackmail you.

[icerose]

Originally Posted by Gabriele

And then send an exemplar to the PA staff with a little note, "Hey, that's what a real book looks like."

Only problem is they would forward your good news to all the authors and say, "Buy your books now, for a limited time at a wonderful discount. Look what your fellow author has accomplished, so can you, and if you buy this many books, fame and fortune will come your way! So don't think, buy now!

[Gabriele]

Originally Posted by icerose

Only problem is they would forward your good news to all the authors and say, "Buy your books now, for a limited time at a wonderful discount. Look what your fellow author has accomplished, so can you, and if you buy this many books, fame and fortune will come your way! So don't think, buy now!

Now I wonder how they'll twist it that getting a book published with a real publisher in a success of PA. But I suppose they'll manage somehow. Twisting facts is their specialty, after all.

[vicki]

Originally Posted by Nexusman

Likewise. This thread is worth it if it even keeps one person from signing.

-Nick

Do you really think that threads like this deter people from doing something they want to do? Like printing a government health warning on cigarette packets means fewer people take up smoking. You jest?

I was attracted to this thread out of curiosity. I saw the number of people viewing this board and decided to find out what it was that was so interesting. I was just following the crowd. I joined in the thread because of a friend who'd suffered many rejections before her novel was finally accepted by a small publisher after she'd considered vanity and self-publishing. When I read about the debate on vanity publishing I was curious to find out more.

If PA closes, authors will find an alternative, it's clearly what they want. Everyone on this thread is here for his/her own reasons, and when it no longer satisfies their needs they will move on. Everyone does.

[LloydBrown]

Originally Posted by vicki

Do you really think that threads like this deter people from doing something they want to do? Like printing a government health warning on cigarette packets means fewer people take up smoking. You jest?

You obviously haven't read the dozens of posts that state some variation of "I'm glad I read this thread before I submitted my book to PA." It's not hard to believe if it's actually true.

[Nexusman]

Originally Posted by vicki

Do you really think that threads like this deter people from doing something they want to do? Like printing a government health warning on cigarette packets means fewer people take up smoking. You jest?

No joke here. When making a decision of any type, facts must be considered ahead of desire. Want to check your terminal velocity going over Niagra falls? Don't forget about gravity.

I was attracted to this thread out of curiosity. I saw the number of people viewing this board and decided to find out what it was that was so interesting. I was just following the crowd. I joined in the thread because of a friend who'd suffered many rejections before her novel was finally accepted by a small publisher after she'd considered vanity and self-publishing. When I read about the debate on vanity publishing I was curious to find out more.

Good. Threads like this provoke curiosity, and the motivation to pursue further information about the subject in order to make an informed decision, conclusion, or both.

If PA closes, authors will find an alternative, it's clearly what they want. Everyone on this thread is here for his/her own reasons, and when it no longer satisfies their needs they will move on. Everyone does.

Admittedly, you're right. Even if PA does close, it won't take long for some other (or possibly the same) deviant to get a similar bright scam idea. However, the basic concept here will remain the same same—honesty and respect for authors (or clients) as opposed to deviously-worded contracts and tone letters, whatever form they may appear in.

-Nick

[Christine N.]

I was so green, just a year and a half ago. I was looking for a publisher, and did a google search. Found PA. Read the site, but something smelled a little fishy. So I googled PA itself. Found myself here, along with Mindsight and other places, that told the real story about PA.

They saved me, and I also found my current publisher through a thread on this board too. So people do pay attention. I stay around, 'cause I've learned so much, and I want to steer other people away. It's gratitude.

[janetbellinger]

Originally Posted by xhouseboy

Humiliate PA writers? PA has already cornered the market there. How much more humiliating can it be to turn up at book signings without books? To be treated like **** off their shoe when disagreeing with their business practises. To be held up for further ridicule on those very PA company boards, and in full view of those deemed your fellow authors. Many more instances spring to mind - far too many to mention.



You don't learn by making mistakes and merely accepting it. You learn by acting upon those mistakes, making sure you don't make the same mistake again. Respect is something you will never get from PA. Exposure is something you will have to do for yourself. The only exposure PA is interested in is the size of your bank balance. As for growing as a writer, how is that possible with PA? They are known to accept first time submissions from authors with barely a grasp of the craft, and as a result any further growth is stunted. PA is, at most, a shortcut, a painkiller, a journey's end when the journey isn't yet nearly complete. Further growth is not possible with them. Your journey ends there.




Try running that one past anyone in the media industry who has got there through sheer hard work and merit. Just as a brief example, Guy Ritchie's last film was deemed by many as a load of bollocks. I liked his earlier ones, though (apart from that mess with Madonna in it). As a consequence, he was relentlessly ridiculed on a Global scale. You wanna bet old Guy's not hiding away in a dark room pontificating about directors having the same human rights as the rest of us. I'm betting he's learning from his last mistake, and already planning his next move. I actually find it quite offensive for the HRA to be quoted in this context. I'm more inclined to worry about the rights of children dying every day of starvation.

You find what I say offensive? I too am concerned about the plight of children. That's why I have volunteered my time and effort to work with them, and why I continue to work with children, as a teacher. But being concerned about the plight of one group does not preclude being concerned about the plight of another. I know that you will find a way to twist this around, but I happen to think that even PA authors are deserving of respect. Now go ahead, have a good laugh.

Janet

[icerose]

Originally Posted by janetbellinger

You find what I say offensive? I too am concerned about the plight of children. That's why I have volunteered my time and effort to work with them, and why I continue to work with children, as a teacher. But being concerned about the plight of one group does not preclude being concerned about the plight of another. I know that you will find a way to twist this around, but I happen to think that even PA authors are deserving of respect. Now go ahead, have a good laugh.

Janet

Hey Janet,
I believe you misunderstood Xhousboy's post.

He said PA has cornered the market in author ridicule. I believe the post about children starving had to do with the mention of the HRA. They have better things to do then worry about an authors feelings when it involves the truth because of bigger issues such as child starvation.

Of course PA authors deserve to be treated well, many of us are pa or were pa authors ourselves. But the point of this thread is to show what PA is and why the authors are on such a plight, not to drag them down. Sometimes the truth hurts but I doubt anyone here is purposely trying to be hurtful to anyone outside of PA who is victimizing thousands of unsuspecting authors.

Oh and on the other post from someone else, sorry am in a hurry about if PA folds then the authors will go else where because this is what they want to do. Well that's the whole point. Most other publishers are a thousand times better than PA and we would all be cheering.

Am I right?

Sara

P.S. I know, I know, back to writing. I only have 40 pages to go!!