Can One Have Too Much Grammar?

LaurieBSmith · Apr 14, 2013

I sometimes think that a book that is totally correct is rather sterile and stilted....More a text book example rather than a wild and rollicking read...

And if there's anything I like, it's wild and rollicking...

(I don't mean to not edit...but to not over-edit or remove the author's quirks of expression.)

What do you think?

slhuang · Apr 14, 2013

Of whom are you speaking? It's not we, is it? :roll:

I definitely think grammar needs to take a backseat to voice when the two conflict. That said, I still wince when I have my characters misuse who/whom in dialogue.

That said, there's a difference, IMHO, between relaxing grammar rules for voice reasons and making grammar mistakes. My personal rule is: if it would sound just as good rewritten correctly, it should be written correctly.

("Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put!" -- Winston Churchill)

Ferret · Apr 14, 2013

I pretty much agree with slhuang. I think it's important for writers to know the rules of grammar, but that doesn't mean writers always need to follow the rules. Choosing to break a rule to create the right voice is a fine choice.

It's important to consider who's speaking, too. Dialogue needs to be authentic--although there is such a thing as being too authentic in terms of fillers and nonstandard spellings. First-person narratives should sound like the person telling the story.

Maryn · Apr 14, 2013

I've been called out more than once for correctly hyphenating compound adjectives (and a few nouns), like up-to-the-minute news and throw-it-all-in-there stew.

Too grammatical? Not to me. I examined each one noted, determined whether it could be misread or misconstrued without the hyphens, and in every case, decided to leave them in place when they occurred before the noun.

But I completely agree that dialogue and voice override much else--except punctuation.

Maryn, semi-fanatic

guttersquid · Apr 14, 2013

LaurieBSmith said:
I sometimes think that a book that is totally correct is rather sterile and stilted....More a text book example rather than a wild and rollicking read...

If a book seems sterile and stilted, if it is not a wild and rollicking read, it won't be because of the use of proper grammar.

cornflake · Apr 14, 2013

guttersquid said:
If a book seems sterile and stilted, if it is not a wild and rollicking read, it won't be because of the use of proper grammar.

This. The two things aren't related. This is like saying a person seems really formal and stilted and you prefer fun, chatty people - isn't it sometimes better to not speak to brunettes? You're seeing causation and perhaps correlation where I'd question the relationship to begin with.

Chase · Apr 14, 2013

I like what others have said, but we may be discussing diction—word choices regarding their effect, correctness, and clarity.

Random examples of a similar subject in differing dictions:

There aren’t many excuses for spelling mistakes, even in less-elevated diction: Girls got alot a spunk.

Not the highest example of diction, yet correct grammar: She has a lot of nerve.

Some may term this more “standard” diction: Susan showed self-reliance.

An entire novel set in rural Montana with this diction could become tedious: The woman demonstrated exemplar reserves of autonomy.

:yesway:

(Chase)

LaurieBSmith · Apr 14, 2013

Chase said:
I like what others have said, but we may be discussing diction—word choices regarding their effect, correctness, and clarity.

Random examples of a similar subject in differing dictions:

There aren’t many excuses for spelling mistakes, even in less-elevated diction: Girls got alot a spunk.

Not the highest example of diction, yet correct grammar: She has a lot of nerve.

Some may term this more “standard” diction: Susan showed self-reliance.

An entire novel set in rural Montana with this diction could become tedious: The woman demonstrated exemplar reserves of autonomy.

(Chase)

Nice examples!

Maythe · Apr 14, 2013

I'm writing a short story using first person narration and my narrator uses a lot of incomplete sentences so this is an interesting question for me at the moment. If I turn them into 'proper' sentences I'll lose something about her speech patterns and a certain amount of spontaneity. But if I don't the thing is peppered with bloody awful grammar. (Side question - Should there have been a comma after 'don't' in that sentence do you think?)

Chase · Apr 14, 2013

Maythe said:
I'm writing a short story using first person narration and my narrator uses a lot of incomplete sentences so this is an interesting question for me at the moment. If I turn them into 'proper' sentences I'll lose something about her speech patterns and a certain amount of spontaneity. But if I don't the thing is peppered with bloody awful grammar. (Side question - Should there have been a comma after 'don't' in that sentence do you think?)

You're perfectly correct writing your first-person story however your character would write, speak, or think. :applause:

(You have to look hard to see the white waving hands in the deaf applause smiley.) I loved Huckleberry Finn's narrative.

You would also be correct to place a comma after But if I dont, as it's an introductory clause. However, modern writers are tending to leave the comma out on short intro clauses and phrases, so you're okay.

By the same token, you definitely need a comma after If I turn them into 'proper' sentences, because it's a long introductory element.

:yesway:

(Chase)

King Neptune · Apr 14, 2013

No, it is impossible to have too much grammar. I would contend that many things that violate the rules of formal grammar are perfectly grammatical within the more general rules of logical grammar.

Examples: from Chase:
"Girls got alot a spunk." If that was: Girl's got a lot a' spunk. Then I would contend that it is correct.There are many wild and rollicking reads from the 19th century and the early 20th century that are perfectly grammatically correct, except for a few bits of dialogue. I have found that fiction that is not grammatically correct usually has other mistakes, especially errors in logic.

Chase · Apr 14, 2013

Agreed, KN. :ty:

for the much needed tweak. :yesway:

evilrooster · Apr 14, 2013

Maythe said:
I'm writing a short story using first person narration and my narrator uses a lot of incomplete sentences so this is an interesting question for me at the moment. If I turn them into 'proper' sentences I'll lose something about her speech patterns and a certain amount of spontaneity. But if I don't the thing is peppered with bloody awful grammar.

As people who know me well have noticed, comma splices bug the living daylights out of me. They give me a stabby pain right behind the left eyeball. And I'm a generous soul; I share that pain freely. :e2teeth:

(A comma splice is where you take two independent sentences and smoosh them together using a comma as glue:

Susan went to the store, she needed milk.

You can use a semicolon, or a conjunction, or just leave them as separate sentences and be grammatically correct. Using a comma splice, by contrast, is not correct.)

Having said all of that, one of my favorite books is China Mountain Zhang, by Maureen McHugh. The primary narrator's voice includes comma splices as a stylistic element. And it totally works in that context. No stabby pains!.

slhuang · Apr 14, 2013

Chase said:
Agreed, KN. for the much needed tweak.

OT: Whoa, cool, ASL smilies! I didn't know we had those! Awesome!

Chase · Apr 14, 2013

Quote:
Susan went to the store, she needed milk.

I'm of the exact opinion. There used to be a poster in this section harping continually how comma splices are okay in dialog. Why? A comma does nothing to change the pace of the sentence (except jerk a careful reader out of the flow). A semicolon after store merely signals the structure of two closely tied main clauses.

To me, dialog is where good punctuation is an aid.

King Neptune · Apr 14, 2013

Chase said:
Agreed, KN. for the much needed tweak.

I'm glad that someone agrees with me.

Maythe · Apr 14, 2013

OK I will keep an eye out for comma splices in the future ;-)

kkbe · Apr 14, 2013

In his excellent essay about his 10 rules of writing ( you may read it here ), the great Elmore Leonard says,

I can't allow what we learned in English composition to disrupt the sound and rhythm of the narrative.

So, comma splices are baaaaaaaaaad. Unless your character speaks and thinks in fits and starts. Like how I just now typed that.

If done right (not saying what I just typed was done right, just sayin'

), you can get away with just about anything.

Chase · Apr 14, 2013

kkbe said:
So comma splices are baaaaaaaaaad. Unless your character speaks and thinks in fits and starts. Like how I just now typed that.

Hmmmm. I see a couple of fragments, which are great in dialog; however, I can't find a comma splice.

However, I also think Elmore Leonard rocks.

Captcha · Apr 14, 2013

kkbe said:
In his excellent essay about his 10 rules of writing ( you may read it here ), the great Elmore Leonard says, So, comma splices are baaaaaaaaaad. Unless your character speaks and thinks in fits and starts. Like how I just now typed that.

If done right (not saying what I just typed was done right, just sayin' ), you can get away with just about anything.

Comma splices are a punctuation error, and people don't use punctuation in their thoughts.

"I want to go, I can't stay," could be correctly written as either "I want to go. I can't stay," or as "I want to go; I can't stay."

I don't think either correct version loses the jerkiness of the character's thoughts/dialogue, do you?

kkbe · Apr 14, 2013

Chase said:
Hmmmm. I see a couple of fragments, which are great in dialog; however, I can't find a comma splice.

However, I also think Elmore Leonard rocks.

I amend it! I screwed up. ETA: I take it back! Did I not write in my previous post, clearly and parenthetically,

(not saying what I just typed was done right, just sayin' )

? Indeed, I did. So, I admitted I might not have provided the best example. No need to beat myself up as I have committed no gaffe, no sin. I hope.

But Elmo does rock and I think you get drift, right, which was, nothin's off limits. You just have to make it work within the context of the piece. There has to be a purpose for it, voice or whatever.

I am discombobulated as I must respond again, now, to this:

Captcha: Comma splices are a punctuation error, and people don't use punctuation in their thoughts.

"I want to go, I can't stay," could be correctly written as either "I want to go. I can't stay," or as "I want to go; I can't stay."

I don't think either correct version loses the jerkiness of the character's thoughts/dialogue, do you?

First of all, Captcha, not quite getting this: ". . .people don't use punctuation in their thoughts." We're talking about writing, correct? If you write a person's thoughts, you're likely to use some punctuation.

As for your examples, I think you're right. Both seem to be correct as written (although I'd lose the italics

).

The reason I added my two cents to this thread is because currently taking a lot of liberties relative to grammar, mechanics, etc., in my WIP. Here is a very brief example, so you know what I'm talking about:

I think I got heat stroke. You go crazy and start thinking weird stuff then you go unconscious and then you die, which means I’m gonna die but I can’t go no further, I just can’t or maybe I don’t want to.

The point I was trying to make was that sometimes we mess with convention because it suits the story, the style, the voice we've established.

The rhythm of the narrative.

Chase · Apr 14, 2013

kkbe said:
The reason I added my two cents to this thread is because currently taking a lot of liberties relative to grammar, mechanics, etc., in my WIP. Here is a very brief example, so you know what I'm talking about:

I think I got heat stroke. You go crazy and start thinking weird stuff then you go unconscious and then you die, which means I’m gonna die but I can’t go no further, I just can’t or maybe I don’t want to.

The point I was trying to make was that sometimes we mess with convention because it suits the story, the style, the voice we've established.

The rhythm of the narrative.

Evil's point, as well as Captcha's and my own, is you don't have to throw out punctuation to write good dialog. The intent of your lines are even clearer to me written as:

I think I got heat stroke. You go crazy and start thinking weird stuff. Then you go unconscious, and then you die, which means I’m gonna die, but I can’t go no farther. I just can’t, or maybe I don’t want to.

Commas don't equal pauses, so you may be defeating your purpose. Good readers can read quicker with proper punctuation.

To make it even read faster, consider no compound structures as grammatical alternatives for speed:

I think I got heat stroke. You go crazy and start thinking weird stuff, then go unconscious, then die . . . which means I’m gonna die but can’t go no farther. I just can’t or maybe don’t want to.

evilrooster · Apr 14, 2013

Chase said:
Evil's point, as well as Captcha's and my own, is you don't have to throw out punctuation to write good dialog.

Actually, my point was that even comma splices can work as part of narrative voice.

I wouldn't use them in dialog, oddly enough, because there are more standard ways of punctuating what characters say. You can't hear the difference between a full stop and a comma, not really.

But the narrator's own storytelling style outwith his reported dialog -- the way he would write the book, if you will -- may not be grammatical. And that's OK.

(Admittedly, I couldn't get through Feersum Endjinn, where one of the narrators uses a very idiosyncratic form of phonetic spelling. Even I have my limits.)

The thing is, though, you have to do it in a controlled fashion. Once you give the reader the impression that you've written agrammatical prose because you don't know any better, you've lost them. It's got to be clearly a stylistic choice, not a trap you can't get out of.

Chase · Apr 14, 2013

evilrooster said:
Actually, my point was that even comma splices can work as part of narrative voice.

Serves me right for speaking for another. Bites me in the back pockets every time.

Come to think of it, I don't use semicolons in dialog, either--though I avoid splices and run-ons to limit confusion. Ain't diversity of styles wonderful?

kkbe · Apr 14, 2013

I agree. As for my example, in my defense--

I can't defend the thing. I shall just keep writing it in the manner it's coming to me and hope for the best. Bleh.

Can One Have Too Much Grammar?

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practical experience, FTW

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