Third person narrative points of view.

Crescendo2020 · Jun 4, 2013

So, I suppose that I'm a little unclear on what is and is not allowable for all of the options in third person narration.
I see the term, "3rd limited" here quite a bit and I'm not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean (As far as what limits it implies).
An omniscient narrator- Knows all of everything both inside the heads of the characters and the actions throughout the story. Does this mean that the narrator is supposed to be somewhat robotic and leave out human traits in the narration? (e.g. humor, style similar to that of the MC, style similar to that of a non-character, but lively, or human, etc.)
A semi-omniscient narrator- Is not allowed into the minds of the characters, correct? Does this narrator have multiple limitations?
A third limited narrator- ???

If there are any, or a bunch that I'm not aware of, can I have a brief (or long would be great) explanation about what roles those different narrations are supposed to play?

thothguard51 · Jun 4, 2013

My understanding of PoV's...

3rd person limited or close...Think of it just like 1st person. The story is told from known PoV's during any scene and its their voice we hear. Sometimes, multiple PoV's are used, and when you switch PoV, the voice also switches to the knew PoV. Generally, when a PoV switch occurs, there is a transition so the reader understands a PoV switch has occurred. NO HEAD JUMPING allowed.

3rd person distant...Same techniques apply as third limited but the story is told at a distance by the PoV. We never really get into a PoV's head all that much. Great for quick action adventure books where you don't want to give a lot of exposition and are telling the story in quick snippets.

3rd person omniscient...the all knowing god like narrator who not only knows everything every character is doing or thinking, but he gives his own views on what is going on at times. In omniscient, the god like narrator is not a known PoV and its his/her voice we hear telling the story. Good omniscient is every bit as hard to do right as first person PoV.

As to the others forms of PoV you mentioned, never heard of a semi omniscient POV. The story is either omniscient, or some other PoV. You don't really mix omniscient with other forms of PoV, its not a mix and match type of PoV.

Some writers slip from 3rd person limited to 3rd person distant within the same book. Poorly done it can cause confusion. Some writers have even mixed 1st person and 3rd person limited, with mixed results. But I have yet to read a book that mixes any PoV with Omniscient, successfully.

Crescendo2020 · Jun 4, 2013

thothguard51 said:
My understanding of PoV's...

3rd person limited or close...Think of it just like 1st person. The story is told from known PoV's during any scene and its their voice we hear. Sometimes, multiple PoV's are used, and when you switch PoV, the voice also switches to the knew PoV. Generally, when a PoV switch occurs, there is a transition so the reader understands a PoV switch has occurred. NO HEAD JUMPING allowed.

3rd person distant...Same techniques apply as third limited but the story is told at a distance by the PoV. We never really get into a PoV's head all that much. Great for quick action adventure books where you don't want to give a lot of exposition and are telling the story in quick snippets.

3rd person omniscient...the all knowing god like narrator who not only knows everything every character is doing or thinking, but he gives his own views on what is going on at times. In omniscient, the god like narrator is not a known PoV and its his/her voice we hear telling the story. Good omniscient is every bit as hard to do right as first person PoV.

As to the others forms of PoV you mentioned, never heard of a semi omniscient POV. The story is either omniscient, or some other PoV. You don't really mix omniscient with other forms of PoV, its not a mix and match type of PoV.

Some writers slip from 3rd person limited to 3rd person distant within the same book. Poorly done it can cause confusion. Some writers have even mixed 1st person and 3rd person limited, with mixed results. But I have yet to read a book that mixes any PoV with Omniscient, successfully.

Okay. This pretty much clears it up for me. My terminology really isn't up to par, sorry.
But to be clear; the third close, or limited, is used by following a specific character, with that character's 'voice' in mind? By voice, I assume you mean, or also mean, personality?
Bob set his ugly hat down. He said, "What an ugly hat."
(I know, that's a bad example, but it gets my question across I think. A better example might be that both Bob and the narration are silly but don't reiterate anything.) So, essentially both Bob and the narrator are the same type of person, or maybe even the same person but the narrator is out of body. Is that the purpose for third limited?

Spiral Jacobs · Jun 4, 2013

For me, the biggest thing if you are using third person limited is, be vigilant about slipping into an omniscient narrator out of convenience. Ask yourself if you need to know something out of your POV character's knowledge, and then, if you do, can you find a way to bring it across in that limited POV? It has forced me to be a lot more clever about my plotting.

I also see, in contemporary fiction, a lot of gratuitous POV jumping between chapters. I shake my fist at George RR Martin for being the poster boy for overuse of this technique. Just read Dark Places by Gillian Flynn, and I thought, of the 3 POV characters in the book, at least one one was unnecessary, if not two. Made me like the book a lot less.

Crescendo2020 · Jun 4, 2013

Spiral Jacobs said:
For me, the biggest thing if you are using third person limited is, be vigilant about slipping into an omniscient narrator out of convenience. Ask yourself if you need to know something out of your POV character's knowledge, and then, if you do, can you find a way to bring it across in that limited POV? It has forced me to be a lot more clever about my plotting.

I also see, in contemporary fiction, a lot of gratuitous POV jumping between chapters. I shake my fist at George RR Martin for being the poster boy for overuse of this technique. Just read Dark Places by Gillian Flynn, and I thought, of the 3 POV characters in the book, at least one one was unnecessary, if not two. Made me like the book a lot less.

Okay, so the narrator is limited to the knowledge of the character being "followed"...

JChandlerOates · Jun 4, 2013

For me, there are two issues: How many points of view, and how often do you tell thoughts or feelings.
On the first issue - - there are either limited (one point of view) or omniscient (potentially all points of view). there are gradations between that - - using limited points of view for a relatively small number of characters (unless you are GRR Martin, who has 25+ POV characters, but one to a chapter.).
On the other issue, which could be called subjective to objective, is how frequently and to what detail the writer tells the thoughts or emotions of the character. If the author never does, that's "objective", and the narrator is almost like a movie camera.
I explicitly used the word "tells" the thoughts or emotions, in contrast to "showing" the behaviors of the characters, which should reveal those thoughts/characters.
Since showing rather than telling has been beaten into me, I tend to go inside the characters heads infrequently when I write in 3rd person.

Honest Bill · Jun 4, 2013

The 'limited' part just means that you confine yourself to that person's POV in a given scene. You can inject the character's personality in to the narrative, or describe things more clinically and avoid slipping their thoughts in there. either of these techniques can be used in 3rd limited. Or you can even switch between them, which is what people mean when they say zooming in and out.

I like it when you get the thoughts of the character through the narrative, just like in that 'ugly hat' example you provided. and that's the style i am writing at the moment.

Remember though, that there are no real 'rules.' If it works, it works. Consistency with POV though, will help with clarity. The reader learns what to expect very quickly and doesn't get confused with who is thinking what etc.

rwm4768 · Jun 4, 2013

With third-person-limited, you also have to consider how deep you intend to be in the POV. In deep third-limited, a lot of the character's voice shows in the narration. But you don't have to do it that way, though a lot of people on this site will say you do. Most of the books I come across stick to one point of view at a time but don't go that deep into the character's voice in narration.

JDarvinWords · Jun 4, 2013

I just had this problem today. I was writing a short piece and once I was about 800 words in I realized...my narrator knows WAY too much for not even being in the room with the characters. I appreciate the information in this thread, as I believe it should assist me in my revisions.

Honest Bill · Jun 4, 2013

rwm4768 said:
With third-person-limited, you also have to consider how deep you intend to be in the POV. In deep third-limited, a lot of the character's voice shows in the narration. But you don't have to do it that way, though a lot of people on this site will say you do. Most of the books I come across stick to one point of view at a time but don't go that deep into the character's voice in narration.

Also, some writers vary in 'depth' according to what part of the narrative they are writing. Some writers go with a specific 'voice' for descriptions, another for exposition, and yet still weave character voice in to sections of inner monologue etc. Some cleaarly delineate the borders between character thoughts, and the rest of the narrative by using techniques like italics, or changing to first person tense, or using tags 'he/she thought'

As with all other areas of writing, the only 'rule' to stick to, is to go with what works.

BethS · Jun 5, 2013

Crescendo2020 said:
If there are any, or a bunch that I'm not aware of, can I have a brief (or long would be great) explanation about what roles those different narrations are supposed to play?

Third-person limited simply means that the narrative is limited to the POV of a particular character or characters. There can be varying degrees of depth with this.

With omniscient, the POV is always that of the external narrator, who may dip into the minds of any character at any time in order to tell the story. This narrator can be nearly transparent, or can have a distinct presence in the story.

When the story is narrated completely from the outside, like a camera that can only observe actions and never see into the thoughts of any characters, and doesn't draw conclusions about what it sees--that is known as the Objective POV.

Diomedes · Jun 5, 2013

Is omniscient 3rd person typical of authors like Dickens? Is Great Expectations in that particular narrative style?

Bufty · Jun 5, 2013

I don't follow this jumble at all. You're trying to cover absolutely everything and ending up with an unhelpful muddle.

=JChandlerOates;8218262]For me, there are two issues: How many points of view, and how often do you tell thoughts or feelings.
On the first issue - - there are either limited (one point of view) or omniscient (potentially all points of view). there are gradations between that - - using limited points of view for a relatively small number of characters (unless you are GRR Martin, who has 25+ POV characters, but one to a chapter.).
On the other issue, which could be called subjective to objective, is how frequently and to what detail the writer tells the thoughts or emotions of the character. If the author never does, that's "objective", and the narrator is almost like a movie camera.
I explicitly used the word "tells" the thoughts or emotions, in contrast to "showing" the behaviors of the characters, which should reveal those thoughts/characters.
Since showing rather than telling has been beaten into me, I tend to go inside the characters heads infrequently when I write in 3rd person.

BethS · Jun 5, 2013

Diomedes said:
Is omniscient 3rd person typical of authors like Dickens? Is Great Expectations in that particular narrative style?

No, it's written in first-person POV.

A lot of 19th century writers did use omniscient, though. And some do today. I just finished 1356 by Bernard Cornwell and that's written in omniscient.

BethS · Jun 5, 2013

JChandlerOates said:
Since showing rather than telling has been beaten into me, I tend to go inside the characters heads infrequently when I write in 3rd person.

But revealing a character's thoughts, emotions, and motives can add whole new dimensions to the story. Without that, the reader is seeing only half the picture and will have a harder time connecting to the character.

Third person narrative points of view.

Crescendo2020

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Crescendo2020

Spiral Jacobs

Words. Words. Words.

Crescendo2020

JChandlerOates

Honest Bill

practical experience, FTW

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW

JDarvinWords

sex/rage through song/dance

Honest Bill

practical experience, FTW

BethS

Diomedes

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

BethS

BethS