'not relevant to the plot'

Anninyn · Jan 13, 2014

I see a lot of people railing against the inclusion of Quiltbag folks (and POC and women and disabled people and anyone else, really) unless it is 'relevant to the plot'.

I don't understand it. Straight white characters never have to justify their existence in the plot.

I hereby promise that I will shoehorn in as many unjustified QUILTBAG and POC characters as I can possibly get away with. No straight white guys unless they are necessary to the plot

.

My stories aren't really quiltbag stories. They are stories about QUILTBAG people. We have adventures outside of our 'other' status.

mirandashell · Jan 13, 2014

What's kicked this off? Just out of interest.

Anninyn · Jan 13, 2014

Just some percolation of stuff I keep seeing cycling through on the internet, mainly a big row about some people seeing similarities to a queer narrative in Elsa from Frozen.

The vitriol offered to people who are doing nothing more than pointing out elements of similarity is astonishing.

Plus there's this continual 'she's not canon gay! IT'S NOT PART OF THE PLOT' thing going on.

I also keep getting told by people that they'll never read my work because of all the PC diversity and shoehorning, which... OK. Go right ahead.

mirandashell · Jan 13, 2014

Excuse my ignorance but what does 'canon gay' mean? I don't know Frozen, is it fanfic of something? Why does it have 'canon'?

Anyway, the internet is unfortunately full of stupid ignorant vicious people. Ignore them and do what you do.

Raivnor · Jan 13, 2014

I'm with you on this one, Anninyn. Though I'm one of those straight, white people, I feel like a writer creates a world in their writing which goes beyond plot, no matter the setting. As such, you aren't beholden to including people who aren't hetero-normative just because they fulfill some story function. Rather, you are responsible for making a place in which your story can breathe and have life.

Moreover, I feel like having a bunch of straight white characters is just boring and unrealistic. I don't hang out with only straight white people. I don't interact with only straight white people. And they certainly don't fill my day to day world. So any fictional world that doesn't include them in a normal, lived-in way, rather than as a plot device, just comes across as inauthentic.

Anninyn · Jan 13, 2014

mirandashell said:
Excuse my ignorance but what does 'canon gay' mean? I don't know Frozen, is it fanfic of something? Why does it have 'canon'?

Anyway, the internet is unfortunately full of stupid ignorant vicious people. Ignore them and do what you do.

Frozen is the latest disney film. For the full row to make sense you'd probably have to be fairly active in online LGBTQA circles.

And I would ignore them, but these people are in positions where their ignorance can actively affect me. The whole idea that being anything other than the 'default' straight white abled cis man needs 'justification' to exist in a fictional context feeds into and from the societal idea that we are less human and less valid. Unfortunately, it effects me on a day to day basis.

mirandashell · Jan 13, 2014

The thing is though.... what can you do about it other than what you are doing? I don't mean to say anything stupid but I know from experience that stupid people on the internet tend to hold on to their stupidity. So maybe doing what you are doing is the right way?

The more people do what you do, the more usual it becomes and the less it is seen as a big deal. And arguing with the stupid people may teach some of them. But where is the good to you in letting them wind you up?

Anninyn · Jan 13, 2014

Sometimes you need to call people out, or they don't realise what they are doing. And there's also no benefit to me in sitting there and letting them hurt me over and over again without ever being challenged for it.

It's a two-pronged attack. I write things that normalise it, and I stand up for myself when I am attacked.

mirandashell · Jan 13, 2014

Fair enough. I just don't want you to let it get you depressed or cause you any more pain than necessary.

I do know a little bit of what you're feeling. I was born in the mid-60s. By the time I was old enough to take notice, it was the mid-70s. And women on TV were being chased around by fat old blokes whilst wearing nothing but bikinis. Or they were helpmeets to their men. And that effected how I was treated in society. So in the Eighties I was on the battle lines fighting for what a lot of women now take for granted.

But from then to now a lot has changed in real life and in media. It was a hard war and it's still going on. But we've won a hell of a lot of battles in the mean time.

Putputt · Jan 13, 2014

Anninyn said:
I see a lot of people railing against the inclusion of Quiltbag folks (and POC and women and disabled people and anyone else, really) unless it is 'relevant to the plot'.

I don't understand it. Straight white characters never have to justify their existence in the plot.

I hereby promise that I will shoehorn in as many unjustified QUILTBAG and POC characters as I can possibly get away with. No straight white guys unless they are necessary to the plot .

My stories aren't really quiltbag stories. They are stories about QUILTBAG people. We have adventures outside of our 'other' status.

Heh, I love it when I come across PoC and QUILTBAG characters in books where their ethnicity or orientation isn't really relevant to the plot. I still remember the glow of happiness when I read THE MAZE RUNNER and a character was introduced. The author just wrote, "An Asian guy" without alluding to his ethnicity with almonds and then moved along with the story. Loved it. Wish it happens more often.

Roxxsmom · Jan 13, 2014

I completely agree with you. I run across this attitude all the time on writing forums, and outside of AW, it rarely gets called out or challenged. It really makes me mad, because the people who do this set themselves up as oh so reasonable and normal. "Why mention orientation if the story isn't about the person's orientation? I'm not a homophobe; I don't care or want to know what any characters do with their junk."

I even know a writer on another list who says that he thinks any non-esssential inclusion of gay or lesbian characters is "political posturing." He often makes stabs at the concept of being PC, and never answers when asked why he is assuming there's anything inherently political about stories that reflect the true range of the human experience.

Sigh.

These comments also are made, of course, with the assumption that orientation is just about what one does with one's junk. If I'm writing from the pov of a woman who is romantically and sexually attracted to men, there will be some differences in her pov when compared to a woman who is attracted to women (or to both men and women), even if she never so much as kisses anyone in the story.

Issue stories are fine and important. But there are plenty of stories with white, heterosexual male characters that are not about being white heterosexual men, per say. Why can't there be more stories about where people just so happen to be something other than any or all of these things?

The answer is because many people, in their heart of hearts, still think the white, heterosexual, male perspective is the default norm for all people. They are generic, regular humans, and everyone else is some kind of exotic "other" who immediately call attention to themselves. When they're reminded that they (or the people they regard as "normal") are simply one of many ways a person can be, it makes them uncomfortable and grumpy.

ARGH!

On a side note, I haven't seen Frozen yet, but it seems like a lot of people are recommending it.

veinglory · Jan 13, 2014

I also agree. I have this argument a lot. Characters need a "reason" to be queer, POC, aged, disabled etc. But no reason to be young-to-middle-aged straight white men. This reinforces the idea that this "everyman" is some kind of default and everyone else (collectively the majority) is deviant and need some kind of express permission to even exist on the page.

K.B. Parker · Jan 13, 2014

I'm thinking about writing a new story with a cast of ten characters and randomly rolling a dice to determine their sexuality.

veinglory · Jan 13, 2014

K.B. Parker said:
I'm thinking about writing a new story with a cast of ten characters and randomly rolling a dice to determine their sexuality.

I once considered outlining the plot and then using a random system to flip various individual traits of the characters. It came to me after I gender flipped the MC of a half-finished novel and found it was so much better that way. I am so programmed to write gender, orientation, race and age etc certain ways that it might be the only way to overcome it?

slhuang · Jan 13, 2014

Anninyn said:
I hereby promise that I will shoehorn in as many unjustified QUILTBAG and POC characters as I can possibly get away with. No straight white guys unless they are necessary to the plot .

Anninyn said:
Plus there's this continual 'she's not canon gay! IT'S NOT PART OF THE PLOT' thing going on.

I love it when people say this.

</sarcasm> I think we should make a habit of assuming everyone who is not "canon straight" is in the QUILTBAG.

Roxxsmom · Jan 13, 2014

I have also run across a lot of people who want to include diversity in their stories but are scared of getting it wrong. They fear that there's a hivemind of QUILTBAG folks out there who will swarm and sting if they write a character who isn't a "perfect representation" of some archetypal non cis/straight etc. orientation.

slhuang said:
I love it when people say this. </sarcasm> I think we should make a habit of assuming everyone who is not "canon straight" is in the QUILTBAG.

There are also some who see gay orientation (and then get quite irate about it) where it's clearly not present, but that's another issue

And I'm having fun imagining what "canon straight" would entail. A man who is always thinking of straight sex, has absolutely no fashion sense whatsoever, and has the emotional intelligence of a ham hock?

I touched my junk, but just to arrange it more comfortably inside my completely masculine boxers (real men don't wear briefs). A hawt pair of bewbs floated by. After several moments, I noticed that a face was situated above them. It wasn't a bad face, if you're the kind of guy who cares for that sort of thing, but I prefer to keep my eyes below the neck, if you know what I mean. Girls take it the wrong way if you spend too much time staring into their eyes. They think you actually want them to talk about their feelings or something. Ick! Anyway, the rest of this gal's body was as hawt as her boobies. I immediately cancelled my plans to watch football and drink beer tonight in favor of a session with my completely straight collection of porn...

Kim Fierce · Jan 13, 2014

I am currently writing a story where every character is GLBT,non-white, and/or has special needs such as Asperger's.

K.B. Parker · Jan 13, 2014

veinglory said:
I once considered outlining the plot and then using a random system to flip various individual traits of the characters. It came to me after I gender flipped the MC of a half-finished novel and found it was so much better that way. I am so programmed to write gender, orientation, race and age etc certain ways that it might be the only way to overcome it?

Many years ago, I briefly played around with role playing games. I was always the gamemaster and one time, when it came to character generation, everything was randomized.

One player said, "I don't want to be a half-orc and I definitely don't want to be a girl'. I said, 'tough shit. You don't choose your gender or race when you're born. And you just rolled a seven for intelligence and a five for comeliness. You've had a rough life. Now pick yourself up off the floor and let's play'.

That player walked his character into a burning building to drink. She died and I re-incarnated her as a Pixie Fairy with no wings. '

Looking back, that was probably a little extreme.

eyeblink · Jan 13, 2014

I've just written a story with a gay male lead character. He's a fifteen-year-old in the main action of the story, which is told in retrospect by him as an adult. His sexual orientation has nothing to do with the plot as such, though it does (I hope) resonate into a few areas of the story. And frankly that's how the character arrived in my head when I first thought of the story. No one but me has read this story yet, as I'm currently partway through revising a very rough first draft, but I shall be interested to see if betas and other readers ask if it's "necessary" that he be gay.

Yes, I've seen this attitude before, and it's certainly one I have little time for. Even less so for the suggestion that having a gay character (even more so, a gay viewpoint character) might "spoil" the story for a reader. We all know QUILTBAG people in real life, probably more than we think we do, and I don't want to write fiction that's all about straight white cis men and no one else. (And since this does come up for me not infrequently, my short fiction is about 50/50 written from female POVs as male ones, with gay, bi and straight characters of both sexes.)

Rhoda Nightingale · Jan 13, 2014

You know what? It is necessary. For LGBT people to read a story and see themselves in it, and not as a side character or comic relief, that's necessary. For us to see a character in a mainstream/non-issue book and say, "Hey, this sounds like me, I relate to this," even if the character's orientation isn't the main focal point of the plot--that's necessary. Representation matters. I'm done listening to heteronormative excuses that, when you pick them apart, really boil down to, "Stop getting your gay cooties all over OUR books!"

GHO57 · Jan 13, 2014

Hm, I'm trying to work on a SciFi thing... and I've got a couple of gay characters that really aren't plot relevant, although they are maybe world-building relevant; I simply can't figure out any reason why they shouldn't be in the cast of characters... it would be statistically implausible that a random collection of people from a personal freedom valuing culture would all just coincidentally happen to be straight.

Logically speaking; there are only a few reasons to leave your planet (or country for that matter)... profit, orders, or search for liberty. And since I need them to be untethered actors in the setting... instruments of change, they can't really be military or scientific personnel, prisoners, or corporate drones. Kinda leaves me with the whole pursuit of happiness away from an oppressive government as the only option... and in that framework it doesn't make sense they would adhere to obsolete 19th century sexual mores. Right?

"We're leaving this stinking planet and its big brother government and all their stupid rules behind forever... ...except the one about not being gay. We're risking our lives, and the live of the future generations for freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of consumer selection (makes sense in context)... but not freedom of sexual expression, not that one, never that one. We want complete freedom, and rampant homophobia."... nah... I just can't make the original colonists that douchey and still expect them to create the kind of progeny I need.

It's not that I'm trying to shoehorn gay characters in... it's more a case of the shoe fitting without one...*shrug*

JimmyB27 · Jan 13, 2014

For me, I would be annoyed if there were a homosexual relationship shoehorned in. But, I'm totally equal dis-opportunities; I would be equally annoyed if a heterosexual relationship were shoe-horned in.

I have been thinking of making my MC gay....or maybe gender-switching him and making her lesbian. Not sure yet. And I'm not sure why I'm not sure yet. :-S

Celia Cyanide · Jan 13, 2014

What is Canon gay?

slhuang · Jan 13, 2014

JimmyB27 said:
For me, I would be annoyed if there were a homosexual relationship shoehorned in. But, I'm totally equal dis-opportunities; I would be equally annoyed if a heterosexual relationship were shoe-horned in.

Ah, but having a character isn't the same as having a relationship . . .

You don't need a queer romance to have queer characters.

mirandashell · Jan 14, 2014

Celia Cyanide said:
What is Canon gay?

I've been wondering that.

'not relevant to the plot'

Stealing your twiglets.

Stealing your twiglets.

Stealing your twiglets.

Stealing your twiglets.

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg

Raised by Wolves

volitare nequeo

I've lost my mind

volitare nequeo

Inappropriately math-oriented.

Raised by Wolves

Attack me with everything you have.

I've lost my mind

Barbara says hi

Vampire Junkie

Hoopy frood

Joker Groupie

Inappropriately math-oriented.