YouWriteOn.com / New Generation Publishing / Legend Press

Taken from YWO Home Page:

"YouWriteOn also offers its own book publishing initiative, funded solely by us."

But it isn't funded by you, is it? The Arts Council used public money to fund the web site you are using to promote this self-project. Your captive audience of wannabe writers (brought about courtesy of AC funding) are funding it by paying £39.99 for an ISBN that costs around 10 quid.

I feel really sad it's gone this way. I miss the forum, I used to enjoy talking to people on there and now it looks like it has gone for good, it looks like the whole site now is dedicated to POD, not the charts or reviews...the success stories are all well and good, but what about the rest of us? I'm sad I left but there's nothing there which would persuade me to come back.

I went and took a look at the Feb top ten and the quality has flatlined.

Someone told me that school kids where running riot through the site; I think the whole idea is now defunct. I pity the Readers at Random House.

More balance needed about YouWriteOn & Authonomy?

I think looking at this topic on YouWriteOn you'd think oh, it's all really terrible over there. But I think the danger you run here is that you're not providing a balance as it seems a lot of the newly published writers by YouWriteOn are now doing really well as a result of being published.

After what seems to be about 2 month's YouWriteOn's got writers getting actual book signings and book stocked in big UK stores like Blackwells and Waterstones, with one saying they'd sold out of the book, and writers getting quotes for their books from people like Monty Python's Terry Jones and Chocolat writer Joanne Harris.

I was reading some of the complaints about Authonomy another review site here too but I discover a different site when I go there - an active community. Similarly when I go to YouWriteOn I find a lot of writers really achieving some good things like below. I think it leaves a lot of the comments here with a credibility problem if you don't provide a balance about sites like Authonomy and YouWriteOn - it can look like a witch hunt from one writers site towards other writers' site. If you provide the balance about the good things they also achieve then you get taken more seriously but if you don't it can lead to a credibility problem

It's a discussion point in my view having looked at the Authonomy thread and I added as such there too. The complaint about Authonomy is that it is a site where writers vote for each to get ahead in a popularity contest, but the slush pile is all but dead so isn't it good that at least Authonomy is trying something? Similarly, what about any comments for balance about the following update on the YouWriteOn site? Sure there definitely seems like complaints from writers not yet published here, yet the writers who have been published seem really pleased and are doing really good things as a result.

And the last couple of comments here about the writers in the charts, isn't this just slamming other writers?

I've just been to the YouWriteOn site and here's their publishing update. Now I'm interested is there anything I'm going to hear here about Authonomy or about the following on YouWriteOn for balance?

Come on you guys, it shouldn't be Absolute Write versus other writers sites!

YouWriteOn Author Publishing News Update - February 2009

The Knights who say "Yi"?? I thought it was "Ni." I can see that mess above me is going to get axed...oh my aching bandwidth...

Kevin Crabbe said:

I was reading some of the complaints about Authonomy another review site here too but I discover a different site when I go there - an active community. Similarly when I go to YouWriteOn I find a lot of writers really achieving some good things like below. I think it leaves a lot of the comments here with a credibility problem if you don't provide a balance about sites like Authonomy and YouWriteOn - it can look like a witch hunt from one writers site towards other writers' site. If you provide the balance about the good things they also achieve then you get taken more seriously but if you don't it can lead to a credibility problem]

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Then you haven't read the entire thread, Kevin. There's been a lot of diversity of opinion -- including the owner himself. However, as things at YWO have deteriorated, the voices supporting it have dwindled.

I'm not sure what you expect from Absolute Write. It's a message board for writers where they can share thoughts and opinions. If the majority opinion is that YWO is a bad thing for writers, then I don't see how that creates a credibility problem. Just the opposite, in fact.

Kevin's post pasted in the entire page from the YWO site, so I've trimmed that content and replaced it with a link.

We try to stick with one publisher/agent/whatever per thread, so for discussion of Authonomy, please visit the Authonomy thread.

Thanks.

- Victoria

Kevin, do you have permission from YouWriteOn to cut-and-paste all that information here? Because if you don't, I'm afraid you're infringing YWO's copyright which is not a good thing to do. I strongly suggest you edit it all out of your post.

(And yes, Priceless, you're right: it was the Knights who said Nii. As far as I know those knights never ever said Yi: I shall ask one of them and see if he can remember.)

ETA: Victoria beat me to it!

While any successes are good and all, that doesn't really make up for the number of people Ted has screwed over in the process. And 'free publishing'? Guess what - all legit publishers do it. All the time. That isn't exactly a selling point, because it's understood that's what a legit publisher is supposed to do.

Fair dos on the link. All I'm saying though is after what seems to be about 2 month's YouWriteOn's got writers getting actual book signings and books stocked in big UK stores like Blackwells and Waterstones, with one store saying they'd sold out of the book, and writers getting quotes for their books from people like Monty Python's Terry Jones and Chocolat writer Joanne Harris.

And Authonomy's apparently signed up a couple of writers too.

I think some of the posters need to look a bit deeper for more balance here or it will eat away at your credibility. Take a look at Authonomy and writers are doing well and take a look at YouWriteOn's publishing update and writers are doing really well too.

Authonomy's had 3 writers picked up already and YouWriteOn's had writers picked up by mainstream publishers too.

http://youwriteon.com/info/the-reading-room.aspx

http://www.authonomy.com/

I'm not sure, Kevin Crabbe, why you needed to cut and paste a massive amount of YWO's webpages when Petec has provided a link and most of us are capable of finding it for themselves. (You may also be exacerbating any copyright breach.)

And Roger has just said, there has been much discussion on this thread about how the original set up at YWO was largely a good thing for writers--until Ted Smith launched his 'free publishing by Christmas' scheme when it all started to go pear-shaped.

Also, you say: "it seems a lot of the newly published writers by YouWriteOn are now doing really well as a result of being published."

I really hope so and I wish them well but you haven't proved it. All you show us is what YWO has chosen to put up on its website. (No balance there, then. No mention of all the dissatisfied customers either.) It is an undisputed fact that there have been many complaints--either because of shoddy books but mainly because of a lack of communication with Ted Smith ands the fact he took down the message boards which was the most popular, helpful and successful side of the whole enterprise.

It also depends on what you mean by 'doing really well', Kevin. What I see is endorsements on books by established writers and happy smiling faces at book launches. An endorsement is great but it doesn't necessarily sell books (leaving aside the fact that these endorsements would have been obtained by the author's own efforts and not by YWO). And how do we know how those book launches were financed--it won't have been by YWO so no doubt it was again purely at the author's own expense. They have every right to do so, of course, and I do not begrudge their moment of glory and I wish them well but it doesn't mean their book is successful.

To be balanced we need clear ad concrete evidence from both sides. Until someone comes on here, either a 'successful' YWO author--ie one who is not out of pocket and can show a profit--or Ted Smith himself to give us the true facts as to why he closed the message boards, why YWO is not now functioning as it was intended and through which it was granted Arts Council funding.

I'm balanced. Are you, Kevin?

Kevin, if you research some of those facts a little more carefully you might realise that all is not what it seems.

Yes, some YWO authors have got their books into Waterstones. But only in the shops which are local to them: not nationwide. Which means that when those two, five or ten copies are sold, that's going to be it for their bookshop sales. Commercial publishers get books into bookshops across the country, and when they sell, they get more.

As for getting quotes from people, well: it's not too difficult to do that (a friend of mine once had a foreward for his book written by the Duke of Edinburgh). But if no one ever sees your book on the shelves (apart from five copies or so in one shop) what good is that going to do you?

Meanwhile, you might want to revisit the Authonomy thread and re-read some of it: those three books you mention weren't picked up out of the slush as you imply: one was submitted by an agent in the usual way, and I believe that another was found through author promotion elsewhere.

Kevin Crabbe said:

I think some of the posters need to look a bit deeper for more balance here or it will eat away at your credibility.

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Kevin, would you like to offer up any particular issue posted here that you categorically disagree with? A balanced discussion results from more than one informed point of view being aired.

I'm certainly ready to defend my credibility regarding anything I've posted here.

Old Hack said:

Kevin, if you research some of those facts a little more carefully you might realise that all is not what it seems.

Yes, some YWO authors have got their books into Waterstones. But only in the shops which are local to them: not nationwide.

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I don't know it all seems a bit of a negative interpretation to me. I imagine those writers must be really pleased to be in bookshops and isn't any extra reader reached a good one? Is it not an achievement to manage that?. And you've got writers published on Authonomy by whatever means who are really pleased to be associated with them. If the writers are happy about their achievements at whatever level, why undermine that by inferring it's somehow not good enough?

And I took time to look back like suggested here. I think it's fair where writers comment they aren't happy if personally affected. But there was one comment I read earlier on from a Jenny somebody that the YouWriteOn book prize was more like a punishment than an honour as it wouldn't get anywhere. It just doesn't seem a positive way to talk about writers who are feeling they are achieving things from Authonomy and YouWriteOn.

Kevin Crabbe said:

I don't know it all seems a bit of a negative interpretation to me. I imagine those writers must be really pleased to be in bookshops and isn't any extra reader reached a good one? Is it not an achievement to manage that?. And you've got writers published on Authonomy by whatever means who are really pleased to be associated with them. If the writers are happy about their achievements at whatever level, why undermine that by inferring it's somehow not good enough?

And I took time to look back like suggested here. I think it's fair where writers comment they aren't happy if personally affected. But there was one comment I read earlier on from a Jenny somebody that the YouWriteOn book prize was more like a punishment than an honour as it wouldn't get anywhere. It just doesn't seem a positive way to talk about writers who are feeling they are achieving things from Authonomy and YouWriteOn.

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I think you need to visit more threads on this board to find out what REAL publishing is.

It's more than giving someone good feelings about their manuscript.

Sheryl Nantus said:

I think you need to visit more threads on this board to find out what REAL publishing is.

It's more than giving someone good feelings about their manuscript.

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Yes, it's more, but for an often very isolated vocation it's a very important one if writers feel encouraged, wouldn't you say?

Kevin Crabbe said:

Yes, it's more, but for an often very isolated vocation it's a very important one if writers feel encouraged, wouldn't you say?

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And if this "encouragement" comes with a price tag attached? Or loss of their first publication rights? Or a garage filled with overpriced books that no one wants?

Go. Do. Your. Research.

Then come back and argue how you think YWO is good for a writer's self-esteem.

Out of interest Kevin - are you a YWO member? have you published with them?

I've been a member of YWO since it began; a friend of mine (Josie Henley) won one of the Random House critiques and later a book contract. The quality of the manuscripts has plummeted.

Many of my friends who used it to begin with won't touch it with a barge-pole.

Okay, Kevin chose not to reply to my post #716, so lets try again with Anna's.

Anna Magdalena said:

To be balanced we need clear ad concrete evidence from both sides. Until someone comes on here, either a 'successful' YWO author--ie one who is not out of pocket and can show a profit--or Ted Smith himself to give us the true facts as to why he closed the message boards, why YWO is not now functioning as it was intended and through which it was granted Arts Council funding.

I'm balanced. Are you, Kevin?

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gothicangel said:

I've been a member of YWO since it began; a friend of mine (Josie Henley) won one of the Random House critiques and later a book contract. The quality of the manuscripts has plummeted.

Many of my friends who used it to begin with won't touch it with a barge-pole.

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I have too. Now I'm trying to work out who you are!!

Josie published with Legend, didn't she? I wonder how she feels about what they're doing?

I know. Haven't spoken to her for a while - must email her.

I went by the name bowey81; but I never frequented the boards much. I've even removed my chapters because of this.

I think, Kevin, we've all said that YWO was okay when it started. It's the vanity publishing set-up that came later that we're not happy with. And neither are many of those who participated. Which is why we suspect the YWO message boards were taken down. Listen to gothicangel. He's been there.

I agree it's not good to make people feel worthless but if you look carefully into what this whole section if AW is all about, you'll see it's about warning our fellow writers that all that glisters isn't gold. Many writers have stepped away from YWO's vanity scheme as a result of this thread and are glad they did.

And please don't keep discussing Authonony on this thread. Authonomy is a completely different operation and whilst it say things that are open to misinterpretation, it is doing nothing wrong. For a start it's not using money given by the Arts Council to fund a profitable vanity press.

Sheryl Nantus said:

And if this "encouragement" comes with a price tag attached? Or loss of their first publication rights? Or a garage filled with overpriced books that no one wants?

Go. Do. Your. Research.

Then come back and argue how you think YWO is good for a writer's self-esteem.

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Okay. I did. Book Prices - Authonomy I don't know about their POD plans. YouWriteOn on their home page link they have a 250 page book on sale example for £6.99 ($10.99) with a £1 royalty to the writer. That seems about market price and decent royalty. First publication rights - they published a book called Bufflehead Sisters and say sales got it a 2 book deal with Penguin this year so doesn't appear to affect potential in this case. Writers self esteem, there seem happy writers who are published from the picture and feedback on homepage link, and also some unhappy writers waiting to be published.

All I am saying is, criticisms are good, they raise peoples game. Where writers are unhappy with either site, good, mention why. But bring a little bit of balance in here. To me having looked at it even quickly I see problems with delays for writers getting published, but also it took me two minutes to find out the books are well priced for writers who are published and also some happy writers. You're speaking in generalisations in your post, it's an easy way to debate, but often one with little substance.