YouWriteOn.com / New Generation Publishing / Legend Press

Stiltjack said:

Sorry - I seem to have touched a nerve.

But...

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Actually, the nerve you struck with me was with your comment: "So much bitterness and anger!" I'm not sure where this came from.

Other than that, I'm glad others are trying to answer you because I'm still trying to work out which direction you're coming from. To be honest, what you've said so far isn't making a lot of sense.

Of course traditional publishers are in business to make money. If they didn't, no writer would be published. The difference here is, they invest in what they expect to be a profitable product. They don't ask writers to pay them, they pay writers out of the collective profits.

As one of the 5000 I am right behind the scheme but acknowledge the problem of the lack of marketing and publicity. I would like to invite anyone who can assist on this to contribute to my blog. We have also gained an unexpected ally in this area from the world of publishing who, despite her staunch opposition of the YouWriteOn scheme, is passionate about writing and will soon be posting advice on her blog . For more on this visit:


http://allanmayer.wordpress.com/

priceless1 said:

Um. No, it's called education. This is a writer's board, and we look out for each other. You imply there are ulterior motives for the benevolence of others, and I think you're scratching the wrong itch. We're simply tired of seeing authors make uninformed decisions that result in destroying their dreams or their books. I see no panic here.

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It is a shame there is no link on YWO message board to here.

Or is there some fear of the truth

victoriastrauss said:

99% of those people aren't publishable.

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...and one of them is me. I wouldn't dream of submitting my book to anyone. I shall order two copies from YWO, one for my mum and one for me.

Enough of the lectures, already!

Stiltjack said:

...and one of them is me. I wouldn't dream of submitting my book to anyone. I shall order two copies from YWO, one for my mum and one for me.

Enough of the lectures, already!

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Okay, now I understand you. I'm a mum, and if what you want is to be able to give a copy of your book to your mum and have one for yourself, I can appreciate that sentiment. Especially as you won't be one of the "mugs" paying 40 quid for what they hope will be the birth of their ambition.

The "lectures" came about because you seemed to be an advocate of YWO's encouragement to aspiring, wannabe commercially published authors.

I don't doubt that Mum will be thrilled with her Chrissie pressie. No, that isn't sarcasm or irony, I sincerely mean it.

Stiltjack said:

I think they're the same. Lightning Source seem to be doing the work.

YWO is free. Sounds pretty superior to me.

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It's not, though.

If you use Lightning Source directly, you get to keep 100% of the profits from the book, once direct printing costs have been taken by LS.

If you use YWO, they pay you 60% royalty after they've taken out their printing costs--which the contract doesn't define, so that cost could very well be hiked up by other associated costs. So even assuming that the printing costs AREN'T increased by other administration charges, on that point you're already 40% down on income compared to going it alone.

If you use LS directly you get the opportunity to perform quality control checks on your download to make sure that errors haven't been introduced to the text or the cover.

If you use YWO you can't make those checks, or change anything once it's been downloaded. Downloading work is notorious for introducing errors: I know, I've done it and seen the result. So books published by YWO are likely to be inferior in quality to books that have had a proper chance for error-checking (and remember that once that ISBN is added to the book no further changes can be made without issuing a new ISBN).

If you use LS directly, you'll be able to buy your books at printing cost and sell them onto bookshops at a discount of the RRP, so ensuring that you don't lose any money along the way--and you might just make a little money on the deal, too.

If you use YWO, you'll have to pay full RRP for any of your books you want to buy as the contract makes no provision for anu author discounts; and you'll earn no royalties on books you buy yourself. So you'll either lose money on every copy you sell into bookshops, or you just won't be able to sell into bookshops.

The majority of books sold are sold through real, physical bookshops. If you can't get your books into them, you're very unlikely to sell to anyone other than your friends and family.

Now, how is YWO superior again? Because I still can't see it.

allanmayer said:

As one of the 5000 I am right behind the scheme but acknowledge the problem of the lack of marketing and publicity. I would like to invite anyone who can assist on this to contribute to my blog. We have also gained an unexpected ally in this area from the world of publishing who, despite her staunch opposition of the YouWriteOn scheme, is passionate about writing and will soon be posting advice on her blog .

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It's not necessary to visit Allan's blog to find out what his unexpected ally said, as that person is me and I'll quote myself here:

Allan, I’ve made no secret of my concerns about this whole YWO scheme, but now that so many of you have gone with it I do want to see you all do the best that you can with your books.

Publicity and marketing is what you all need to focus on, probably to non-bookshop markets.

I’ll see if I can find a couple of people to post about publicity and marketing on my blog–it’s a much-neglected area which many self-publishers struggle with: I used to work in marketing, so know a bit about it. Meanwhile, I’ve got what looks like a great book about marketing to review on my blog, which might be useful: give me a few days to finish it and write it up. I’m reading it now and it looks very promising.

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Allan, as I've told you via email and blog posts, I am convinced that YWO's publishing scheme is a bad idea. But yes, if the books are to sell to anyone other than the authors' family and friends they'll need to be marketed. I wouldn't describe myself as an ally of the scheme: just as someone who knows a bit about publishing and is keen to help prevent writers ending up disappointed. I don't want to see writers wasting their time and money on ineffective schemes, and so part of what I expect to put up will be information on what's not going to work.

Stiltjack said:

...and one of them is me. I wouldn't dream of submitting my book to anyone. I shall order two copies from YWO, one for my mum and one for me.

Enough of the lectures, already!

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You could still do that by going direct to Lightning Source--and I suspect that the end cost to you would then be lower than if you used YWO. Where's the advantage in YWO for you? I'm pretty sure you'd still be able to get your two copies cheaper if you worked directly with LS.

Posted by Allan on YWO:

"I have gained a very surprising ally from the professional publishing world who is going to provide advice on her blog. If you are interested in this, or have any marketing ideas you would like to share, please visit my blog at:"

May I suggest it would be a good idea to post a link to Old Hack's blog rather than have folk go through your blog to get to the information she is very kindly offering?

Old Hack will be getting more than enough references and links to her blog in return for her kindness over the coming weeks, but I am also hoping to put together on my log a list of ideas from the YouWriteOn authors, as I would hope that they have been thinking about marketing and would like to share their ideas.
Her blog address is:

http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/

mine is:

http://allanmayer.wordpress.com/

Thanks, we know Old Hack's blog addy. The point I was making is that, rather than quote from her blog on your blog, you post that addy on YWO.

I'd like to point out here that the reason I suggested YWO writers consider promoting to non-bookshop markets is that the contract makes it impossible for them to get their books into bookshops without incurring a loss on every copy sold. So they are going to HAVE to promote to non-bookshop markets.

allanmayer:
As one of the 5000 I am right behind the scheme but acknowledge the problem of the lack of marketing and publicity.

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Hi, allan, and welcome to AW.

Can I ask whether you were aware of the lack of marketing and publicity before you took up the YWO offer?

There's a Self Publishing and E Publishing Forum here on AW that you might want to check out for marketing ideas etc.

Stiltjack:
I wouldn't dream of submitting my book to anyone. I shall order two copies from YWO, one for my mum and one for me.

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And that's great because it proves why self-publishing works for those with limited expectations or who aren't hoping to make money from it. Apart from the money you've spent on those two copies, you're not out of pocket and you had no plans for commercial publication of your novel so you don't need to worry about reprint rights.

Stiltjack:
Enough of the lectures, already!

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No-one's lecturing you. We're sharing information, questions and concerns. If you're happy with your experiences and have nothing more to share then there are plenty of other forums here on AW that may be more to your taste.

MM

Marketing and YWO

Thanks MM, I'll take a look at that. Yes I was aware of the lack of marketing from YWO- they are very clear about that in the contract. I was attracted by the links with agents and publishers claimed by YWO, and had a vague hope that any works of quality would be 'spotted' although some commentators are questioning the nature of those links.
In truth I had got to the stage where I wanted to get my first novel out there. I have no doubts about its quality, but feel that it has been getting refused because it strays between genres.
I don't feel that I am throwing it away, as some would suggest. It will get a limited readership and make some money for charity.
My second novel is sticking strictly to genre, and I will be less inclined to desert the traditional publishing route. I also can't see how having one novel published by YWO can ruin an author's career- surely a career means a succession of novels.
In the meantime I am using my blog as a repository for those of the 5000 who are serious about their work to add their ideas for marketing. Those that I have heard from have no illusions about fame and fortune.
Thanks again for the link,
Allan.

allanmayer:
I was attracted by the links with agents and publishers claimed by YWO, and had a vague hope that any works of quality would be 'spotted' although some commentators are questioning the nature of those links.

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I have no doubt that some people have been "spotted" by agents/publishers as a result of their use of YWO message boards or use of self-publishing. YWO does tout its success stories and I have no reason at all to think that these are not genuine. However (and at the risk of sounding churlish), there aren't that many success stories on their website, which suggests a rate similar to your chances of getting pulled out of a slush pile.

allanmayer:
I don't feel that I am throwing it away, as some would suggest. It will get a limited readership and make some money for charity.

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I very much wish you all the best with it.

MM

As I understand it, the Random House editors only look at the work which rises to the top ten of the critique section of the website, though, Allan--they're not going to be involved in the publishing scheme at all, and are unlikely to even know it's happening, let alone read any of the books involved. Or have you read claims to the contrary?

Hi, Old Hack. No, I haven't read anything to the contrary. When I first submitted to YWO I was attracted to the links with Random House and certain agencies, but I have since wondered about the nature of these links and if YWO may be 'bigging itself up.' I would be telling the truth if I said that I once sang with Neil Diamond. It would put a whole new complexion on it if I let it slip that I was in the audience at the time.
Realising that Random House only read the top ten in the YWO chart I have submitted my opening chapters for review, in the hope that getting into the top ten at the same time as publishing the book may get me noticed. My first review was by a very intelligent reader who gave me 39 out of a possible 40. Having said that I may get an unintelligent reader next time, who gives me 5. C'est la vie.
On the question of whether or not Random House will notice that the YWO scheme is even happening: I am a newcomer to sites like this, so you will be in a better position to answer this question- Do people from the big publishing houses read Absolute Write, Writer Beware and How Publishing really works? If so, then how could they have avoided hearing about YouWriteOn?

Allan, the only public comments I've read from a real, big-time publisher about the YWO publishing scheme came from Scott Pack. He used to run Waterstones and now runs The Friday Project, which is an imprint of HarperCollins. He made the following comment on Sally Zigmond's blog:

"Five minutes watching The X Factor is proof enough that most people want a shortcut to fame no matter what their talent.

"I have found YouWriteOn to host some great writing actually, but how an influx of thousands of unedited works will end up baffles me."

You can read his original comment here. I've read a few other YWO-related comments of his on other blogs, where he is far less restrained.

Incidentally, Sally Zigmond is a brilliant editor and writer, and also has a book review blog which you might like to consider submitting your book to when it comes out. She's very honest about the books she reviews, as am I. Be warned.

Old Hack said:

Incidentally, Sally Zigmond is a brilliant editor and writer, and also has a book review blog which you might like to consider submitting your book to when it comes out. She's very honest about the books she reviews, as am I. Be warned.

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Does this mean that you are going to buy my book?

No, Allan, it doesn't. It means that if you decide to submit it to my review blog I'll treat it just the same as I treat all the other books that are submitted.

allanmayer said:

. . . I have since wondered about the nature of these links and if YWO may be 'bigging itself up.' . . .

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At a time when it was being stated on YWO's site (and in the press) that an active London agent would critique winning chapters, and #1 writers were told this would happen, the active agent was suddenly unavailable to do critiques.

allanmayer said:

Realising that Random House only read the top ten in the YWO chart I have submitted my opening chapters for review, in the hope that getting into the top ten at the same time as publishing the book may get me noticed.

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If Random House, or any publisher or agent, want to talent spot they can do so by reading any material on YWO at any time. In other words, if they are interested in talent that appears in the Top Ten, they don't need YWO's endorsement and/or encouragement to look at it.

Aided by further Arts Council funding, a new best seller chart was created for the purpose of show-casing the highest rated writing that made the top five. However, these pieces were not show-cased according to the order reviewing members had rated them. Placing highly rated work in a chart below lesser rated work is not the best way in the world to attract the publishing industry to possibly worthy writers.

Many sites like YWO can cite some successes--Authorlink, the original manuscript display site, is one example. And where it's a publisher sponsoring the site, as with Authonomy, or where the company has gone out and actively recruited publishers, as with Creative Byline, odds are that the publisher's staff really will participate (though to what degree, and to what effect, is an open question).

But for all the hype (and I've been seeing much the same sort of hype about alternatives to the basic submission process since 1997, when Authorlink first opened its doors), and the occasional participation by real agents and editors, the hard fact is that none of these sites have ever become mainstream destinations for publishing industry professionals. So far, at least. No matter what the sites may claim about being selective in who they accept, or letting the best rise to the top via peer rankings, or even providing help to get submission materials into better shape, the bottom line is that they are still slush piles. Since agents and publishers already have slush piles of their own, there's limited appeal in getting involved in additional ones.

My theory, anyway.

- Victoria

I think You Write On is a marvelous opportunity...for Random House to get someone else to read their slush pile. What I don't think it does is give anyone a better chance at being published. If your book can make it to the top ten there, some agent somewhere would be willing to represent it. It might take a few more submissions, but eventually you'd be offered representation.

allanmayer:
When I first submitted to YWO I was attracted to the links with Random House and certain agencies, but I have since wondered about the nature of these links and if YWO may be 'bigging itself up.'

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I have no reason to disbelieve YWO's links with respected groups within the industry such as Curtis Brown, Orion and Bloomsbury. However, it needs to be kept in mind that all YWO is offering to the top 5 writers rated on their site is:

YWO Web Site (BOLDING MINE):
a free professional critique from established authors, and editors for leading literary agents and publishers

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I'm not clear on whether that critique is on a full manuscript or the opening 6,000 to 10,000 words that YWO allows you to post, but the fact is, it's only a critique. Now, a critique from a professional writer or editor can be invaluable in helping you to improve your manuscript (and I see that a couple of YWO's members have gone on to get deals as a result of critiques given via their participation on the site), but a critique is not a guarantee of representation or publication.

Judging from the news section on the YWO website, it appears that only a handful of people who've used the site have gone on to get representation/publishing deals since the site has been in operation. That low figure is, I'd suggest, roughly equivalent to going through a normal slushpile.

allanmayer:
I have submitted my opening chapters for review, in the hope that getting into the top ten at the same time as publishing the book may get me noticed.

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With apologies if it sounds as though I'm raining on your parade (I'm honestly not trying to be a complete downer), the thing to bear in mind is that if you do make it to the top 5 for a critique, the critique will be on a book that has already been published. Therefore your chances of getting republishing rights taken up by a commercial publisher are more likely to be affected by your sales figures than whether it's been reviewed positively by other commentators. I'm not saying that this is an absolute - there is always the possibility that someone can be bowled over by your book and want to buy it without proof of sales - but those chances are small.

This is why it worries me when people who have gone into the YWO self-publishing venture talk about having lost nothing for their £40. It's not just the money - it's the fact that you could have done very severe damage to your chances of ever getting a commercial publishing deal for that novel (assuming that's what you want).

allanmayer:
Do people from the big publishing houses read Absolute Write, Writer Beware and How Publishing really works? If so, then how could they have avoided hearing about YouWriteOn?

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I don't know about publishing houses, but I know that a couple of agents take the time to participate here on AW and answer questions for people in the Ask The Agent Forum and a couple of editors have taken the time to help people in the Ask the Editor Forum.

The issue is not however whether publishers or agents have heard of YWO (and some of them obviously have or else YWO would not be using their names), but why a publisher or agent would want to spend valuable time and energy with YWO when they have their own slush piles as well and when they're already getting plenty of quality-vetted manuscripts via agents.

MM

MM, I blogged about the rights issue when this whole thing started, and then I read the contract more thoroughly and blogged again: while it's pretty easy to get out of the contract, it makes no provision for author discounts on copies that authors buy themselves, but does state that authors earn no royalties on copies they buy themselves--which will make it impossible to buy copies and sell them on at any profit. I thought that pretty tricky.

YWO has since said that it's hoping to offer an author discount when numbers have been finalised as the high number of submissions means that it might be possible to negotiate a higher discount from the printers: but as these books are being printed by Lightning Source I wonder how that'll work, as I thought that the whole point of POD was that there were no economies of scale involved. And I don't see how clauses can be added to contracts after they've been signed and the books have been published, so that's another worry.

The success rate for YWO's slushpile doesn't seem very high to me, especially when you consider how much time the members spend reviewing each other's work. Surely that should equate to a much higher success rate? After all, on this board it seems like at least one of our members makes a good-to-excellent sale every week; a good example is the lovely Pat Wood, who was shortlisted for the Orange Prize this year. She's a member here too.

If I remember rightly, YWO claims to be responsible for two big successes (by which I mean sales to big publishing houses) and one or two sales to smaller houses. One of those big successes is Patti DeLois's Bufflehead Sisters: but if you check out the website of FinePrint Literary Management here you'll find that it, too, claims to have made that particular sale (you'll have to scroll down the page to find it, but it's there).

I'd bet that FinePrint had a bit more to do with the sale than YWO, but perhaps I'm wrong.