Your Voice/Publishing Industry's Arrogance

Novus · Jul 11, 2006

It takes a special person to write a novel. We don't live life like other people, we observe life. Our minds muddle through characters, plots, syntax. We're subject to rules like formatting, grammer, punctuation... Yet nothing stops us.

And we don't because we are special in our weird way--we are what many literary agents, editors, and publishers wish they were--writers. But they don't have what it takes--we do. And yet, we grovel at their feet, praying for an opportunity, take their abuse and sometimes squash our creativity to appease the ruthless gods of literature. But where does it get us?

I've finished my second novel and am doing everything I'm told to understand the publishing process and am confused by what I've found.

Literary Agents: When I first heard of them, I said, Okay they're sales people that work on commision. But who ever heard of a sales person that's must feel passionate about the work? Huh? Isn't your job selling? The guy that sold me my Jeep didn't seem that passionate. Or complaining about how many queries they receive? Excuse me, in sales aren't those considered leads and the 2% rule applies? Or you didn't spell my name right! So? Are you going to spell the author's name right on the rejection letter?

Queries: No matter how many books, blogs or comments you hear on this subject, nothing is standard. You must make it compelling but you must do so within one page. Okay, but you want me to include a full heading, you want me to tell you what other books you represent like mine (like you don't already know this) then make room for a bio. Oh, yes, and spell your name right. And close the letter with appropriate grovelling and don't forget--we must tell you (not show you) that an SASE is enclosed. Yet we've seen samples of published works where the query didn't follow these guidelines. What does this tell you?

Or the trend of anonymous literary agents and editors posting blogs to give us scraps of secret publishing information as if we were hungry puppies, scolding us, ridiculing us and telling us we're bad, bad, bad. But the worse part for me is that other writers join in the author bashing as they kiss up to the mighty anonymous literary agent. It's pathetic.

I'm not as wise as the rest of you, but I'm clear on a couple of things:
1) Anyone who has completed a novel is part of an elite group. A group that deserves respect. It doesn't matter if the book is good or bad, rewriting will fix it eventually--that's not the point. The point is--you are special and should never forget it.
2) Yes, the literary agents and publishers hold the cards to our publishing future but again, no one will respect you or your talent if you don't. Put them in their place. Remember, you did something they couldn't do. (except maybe publish a book on getting published)
3) The next time a literary agent or their associates goes off on a tantrum on one of those blogs, put them in their place with respect and dignity and by no means participate in their ego inflated inquisition against other newby writers.

We allow them to behave this way. Without authors, they are nothing and yet we play this sad game. We must get our dignity back. If we do, only good things can happen. If there were some way for writers to come together and force some changes in the publishing industry, wouldn't that be something! (Please don't say: it is, what it is. It is because we say so.)
Thank you for allowing me to vent. Your thoughts?

Zolah · Jul 11, 2006

Um...my thoughts are that ALL people deserve respect, not just writers, and that editors and agents are people (good and bad) just like the rest of the world. We're all 'special'. Editors edit. I can't do that. That makes them special. Agents sell books. I can't do that. That makes them special. My mother makes amazing lasagne. I can't do that. That makes her special. My dentist can fill teeth. My waitress can balance four plates on her arms. My little niece can put both feet in her mouth. And yes, I can write and finish books. All those abilities are lovely, but none of them make the person who possesses them inherantly better than the rest of the world.

Writers do deserve respect. But writers walking around offering rancour and disrespect of their own to dedicated publishing professionals because 'You WISH you could finish a novel like me! I'm special and you're NOTHING!' is not only a recipe for getting nowhere in the publishing industry, it's a pretty good one for getting nowhere in life, as a person. If every author in the world starts acting like that, I shall just have to become a plummer, because I don't want to be associated with that kind of behaviour, thank you.

maestrowork · Jul 11, 2006

It's not arrogance. They're just doing their jobs.

HConn · Jul 11, 2006

Novus said:
Your thoughts?

Regarding your point 1)

Yes, we're all special snowflakes.

Regarding your point 2)

We can respect ourselves without putting working professionals "in their place." It's not an adversarial relationship.

Regarding your point 3)

Miss Snark called you a nitwit, huh?

And yet, we grovel at their feet, praying for an opportunity, take their abuse and sometimes squash our creativity to appease the ruthless gods of literature.

Nonsense.

Just write a good book and try to behave like a professional. It's not that complicated.

Homer · Jul 11, 2006

I write fiction as a hobby/night job. My day job is lawyering. In my day job I've had to endure the arrogance and subjectivity of law firms inundated with 100x more resumes than they could take seriously; after I landed a coveted spot with one of those firms, I had to grovel at the feet of partners holding my future in their hands even though often I did not respect them professionally; now as a partner and experienced lawyer I have more times than I care to remember stood amazed at the stupidity and/or intellectual dishonesty of judges. In this regard, nothing can shock me anymore.

When I first embarked on this process of trying to sell my novel not very long ago, I thought to myself (naively), "Ah, finally an endeavor that is a true meritocracy, and not fraught with luck, bias, politics, and subjectivity." In retrospect, it's hard for me to fathom how I could have thought that. I'm sure every successful novelist that tried to break into the business with a first novel and no publishing history had to endure the kind of belittlement and disrespect you're describing (well, okay, not Harper Lee, who could sport a warm endorsement from her boyhood friend Truman Capote).

The flip side is, that clearly any agent with experience and a reputation has felt the sting of slapping his forehead, realizing that he thoughtlessly tossed into the waste bin a query from the latest hot shot debut author.

In short, what you're describing is just life in a market system. Especially when you're selling something that is art.

blacbird · Jul 11, 2006

HConn said:
Just write a good book and try to behave like a professional. It's not that complicated.

Well . . . the second part isn't complicated.

caw.

Tish Davidson · Jul 11, 2006

All novelists love their books, and yes, finishing a novel is an achievement. However, the publishing industry is about making money. Writers who write books that sell and make agents and publishers money get respect. Writers who whine about how the industry works and how agents, editors, and publishers don't appreciate how special they and their novel are get ignored.

Obviously agents, editors, and publishers make mistakes by turning down books that others in the industry pick up and make money from or publishing books that turn out to be financial losers, but they don't stay in business long if they make too many mistakes. The system is market driven. You may hate that, but its reality. If you want to become a published author, first you have to write a saleable book. Then you have to work your way through the system by convincing an agent, editor, and publisher that it will make money for them. Words like fair and special simply aren't part of the equation.

sassandgroove · Jul 11, 2006

Novus, Interesting first post. I hope you'll take the replies in the spirit they are meant and will stick around. What kind of novels have you written?

Writing Jedi · Jul 11, 2006

Actually Novus, I understand what you're saying.

When I first plunged into this writing thing, I was stunned at the pedestal that agents and editors are put on when WE are the ones with the product that THEY need!

And there is no doubt a barely disguised hostility toward new unpublished writers who can be dismissed just for using a font the agent or editor does not like. Horrors!

Oh well, I've been fully indoctrinated into this silliness I guess because it hardly bothers me anymore. Feels normal.

Just concentrate on your writing. Remember - getting published will be the best revenge.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 11, 2006

Novus said:
It takes a special person to write a novel. We don't live life like other people, we observe life. Our minds muddle through characters, plots, syntax. We're subject to rules like formatting, grammer, punctuation... Yet nothing stops us.

And we don't because we are special in our weird way--we are what many literary agents, editors, and publishers wish they were--writers. But they don't have what it takes--we do. And yet, we grovel at their feet, praying for an opportunity, take their abuse and sometimes squash our creativity to appease the ruthless gods of literature. But where does it get us?

I've finished my second novel and am doing everything I'm told to understand the publishing process and am confused by what I've found.

Literary Agents: When I first heard of them, I said, Okay they're sales people that work on commision. But who ever heard of a sales person that's must feel passionate about the work? Huh? Isn't your job selling? The guy that sold me my Jeep didn't seem that passionate. Or complaining about how many queries they receive? Excuse me, in sales aren't those considered leads and the 2% rule applies? Or you didn't spell my name right! So? Are you going to spell the author's name right on the rejection letter?

Queries: No matter how many books, blogs or comments you hear on this subject, nothing is standard. You must make it compelling but you must do so within one page. Okay, but you want me to include a full heading, you want me to tell you what other books you represent like mine (like you don't already know this) then make room for a bio. Oh, yes, and spell your name right. And close the letter with appropriate grovelling and don't forget--we must tell you (not show you) that an SASE is enclosed. Yet we've seen samples of published works where the query didn't follow these guidelines. What does this tell you?

Or the trend of anonymous literary agents and editors posting blogs to give us scraps of secret publishing information as if we were hungry puppies, scolding us, ridiculing us and telling us we're bad, bad, bad. But the worse part for me is that other writers join in the author bashing as they kiss up to the mighty anonymous literary agent. It's pathetic.

I'm not as wise as the rest of you, but I'm clear on a couple of things:
1) Anyone who has completed a novel is part of an elite group. A group that deserves respect. It doesn't matter if the book is good or bad, rewriting will fix it eventually--that's not the point. The point is--you are special and should never forget it.
2) Yes, the literary agents and publishers hold the cards to our publishing future but again, no one will respect you or your talent if you don't. Put them in their place. Remember, you did something they couldn't do. (except maybe publish a book on getting published)
3) The next time a literary agent or their associates goes off on a tantrum on one of those blogs, put them in their place with respect and dignity and by no means participate in their ego inflated inquisition against other newby writers.

We allow them to behave this way. Without authors, they are nothing and yet we play this sad game. We must get our dignity back. If we do, only good things can happen. If there were some way for writers to come together and force some changes in the publishing industry, wouldn't that be something! (Please don't say: it is, what it is. It is because we say so.)
Thank you for allowing me to vent. Your thoughts?

I haven't lost any dignity. An agent's passion means strong belief that the work has what it takes to sell. Period. What would you have thought if the guy who sold you your Jeep had taken you around back and tried to pawn off a Jeep with three wheel, a broken windshield, a cracked block, and a big puddle of oil on the ground under it. Your salesman absolute had faith in the vehicle he was trying to sell you, and passion that it would sell to enough people to let him earn a living. If he didn't, he needs another line of work.

And, of course, when an agent or editors says he lacks enough "passion' for your work, he often really means "This smells so bad a gas mask wouldn't help. So I'm returning it now so I can fumigate my office."

He's often right. He's just being nice.

If there's any groveling done in this business, it's agents and pubishers groveling at the feet of those who have proven they can sell novels in large numbers. Any writer who grovels is just not very bright. Groveling gets you nowhere, earns you no respect, and doesn't make the book you wrote any batter.

All people deserve respect, including agents and editors and pubishers. And most often, what agents and editors see is bad, bad bad. It's usually horrible, horrible, horrible. Anyone who finishes a novel may be part of an elite group, but if so, then those who write a good, publishable novel are part of a super elite group, because, on a percentage basis, finding one is extremely rare.

People deserve respect. Effort deserves respect. But there is good, there is bad, there is awful, and it serves no one, especially new writers, to not put it all out there and tell the truth about it.

And a writer who can't spell an agent's name correctly doesn't deserve respect or consideration. Being professional, being courteous, getting things correct, is just as important for you to do as it is for the agent or editor.

Writing a proper query is no different than writing a good resume. When you write a resume, you write it the way a particular company wants it, you make sure everything is spelled correctly, and you put in what they want to see.

Guidelines are simply not that difficult to follow.

As for the number of queries, Lord, no, the 2% rule does not apply. And even if it did, too many are too many. I know how business works, and I know the best business person alive can't follow up 1000 leads per week, especially if he has one day per week to work on them. And even when you wed trough the 1,000 queries, you're luck to find one you want. And over the course of a year, you're lucky to find five writers out of 50,000 queries.

As for the blogs, well, I don't know any agent or editors who name writers on their blogs. But what they have to say is almost always true. Rather than griping and comlaining about it, the smart move is to read and learn from it. If you see yourself in what they're saying, then stopping worrying about your dignity, and start worrying about fixing what you're doing wrong.

And I hate to break the bad news to you, but many agents are writers. So are many, many editors. Very, very good writers. Agents and editors are usually in this business because they love good writing and love good writers. By and large, they do an extremely good job. So give them the respect they deserve, and maybe you'll get some in return.

jules · Jul 11, 2006

Novus said:
And we don't because we are special in our weird way--we are what many literary agents, editors, and publishers wish they were--writers. But they don't have what it takes--we do. And yet, we grovel at their feet, praying for an opportunity, take their abuse and sometimes squash our creativity to appease the ruthless gods of literature. But where does it get us?

I don't think grovelling gets you anywhere. Listen: editors and agents are good at things we aren't -- primarily knowing how to pick a book that will sell from one that'll collect dust on a bookshop's shelves for a couple of weeks before it's returned. Write a book that will sell, and everything else will become easy.

I've finished my second novel and am doing everything I'm told to understand the publishing process and am confused by what I've found.

If you're confused by the publishing process, it's because you're not trying to understand it from the point of view of the people who matter: readers. Readers want publishers they trust to pick out good books that they'll want to read and put them on bookshop shelves at a price they're willing to pay. In order to do this, publishers look to agents to recommend books that are worth publishing. Sales drive everything, so it is the readers who are the key.

Literary Agents: When I first heard of them, I said, Okay they're sales people that work on commision. But who ever heard of a sales person that's must feel passionate about the work? Huh? Isn't your job selling? The guy that sold me my Jeep didn't seem that passionate.

The point about needing to feel passionate about a book is because of what you note in your next sentence:

Or complaining about how many queries they receive?

There are many more queries than there are places to sell books to. For every book that's published, hundreds more are written. Even if you apply Sturgeon's Law and discard 99% of those books as crud that isn't worth considering, there's still pretty stiff competition for the reader's attention.

Excuse me, in sales aren't those considered leads and the 2% rule applies?

No. Agents sell to publishers, not authors. Queries are suppliers offering new goods that the salesman might want to sell. But he can't try to sell everything, he doesn't have enough time, so he has to sort through the queries to find the things he thinks he might be able to sell.

Queries: [...] You must make it compelling but you must do so within one page. Okay, but you want me to include a full heading, you want me to tell you what other books you represent like mine (like you don't already know this) then make room for a bio. [...] And close the letter with appropriate grovelling and don't forget--we must tell you (not show you) that an SASE is enclosed. Yet we've seen samples of published works where the query didn't follow these guidelines. What does this tell you?

That you've been reading the wrong guides to writing queries. Think back to your salesman analogy. A query letter is simply a business-to-business sales letter. Tell him about the product, tell him anything else that's relevant. If there isn't anything else relevant, just close the letter (politely) and let him get back to you in his own time. No hard sell -- hard sell is counterproductive on high value sale -- just info about the product and let him make his own decision whether or not to ask for a sample.

Or the trend of anonymous literary agents and editors posting blogs to give us scraps of secret publishing information as if we were hungry puppies, scolding us, ridiculing us and telling us we're bad, bad, bad. But the worse part for me is that other writers join in the author bashing as they kiss up to the mighty anonymous literary agent. It's pathetic.

I think you're reading different anonymous agents and editors to me. Strangely, I didn't know there were that many of them.

If there were some way for writers to come together and force some changes in the publishing industry, wouldn't that be something! (Please don't say: it is, what it is. It is because we say so.)

No. The publishing industry is how it is because that is how readers want it. Plain and simple. As writers, there is little we can do but cater to readers, for without them our books are worthless. Fortunately, there is light at the end of the tunnel: readers like to read, and many of them like to occasionally read new books by authors they haven't heard of before. As long as this is the case, publishers have to read what we submit to them, and publish what they think is the most likely to sell.

NeuroFizz · Jul 11, 2006

I'm sorry, but writers are not any more special than individuals who suffer through the learning curves and employment hassles of other occupations (there is a difference between an occupation and a job, by the way). So, to me, writing a novel gives me no special pedestal. Furthermore, although we owe each other an initial dose of politeness and individual sensitivity (forms of personal respect), the awarding of professional respect should be earned. There are many ways to earn this respect, not just from successfully publishing something. Sorry, Novus, but your post sounds like the Disney grasshopper who lazes around singing, "The world owes me a living..." and your advice sounds like we should blast anyone who doesn't buy into the grasshopper's attitude. Yes, some agents and editors are blunt, seemingly uncaring. Yes, success in this business sometimes defies common sense or perceived talent. But no agent or editor has his or her finger on the pulse of the reader to where they can be 100% confident in detecting a sure-fire heart stopper in a book. This endeavor is subjective and it is a business. The same pressure you feel probably is shared by most agents and most editors who must rely on their intuition, knowing that their subjective opinion will be evaluated in the most objective way--directly in dollars and cents.

Alan Yee · Jul 11, 2006

Novus, if you read the blogs of legitimate agents, editors, and publishers, I would suggest you pay close attention to the information and advice they give. Agents, editors, and publishers deserve respect just like anyone else does, and whatever they say on their blogs is usually true and can be useful in the long-run. And you also have to earn the respect from agents, editors, and publishers within the publishind industry, by giving them a book that they think will sell a bunch of copies.

Novus · Jul 11, 2006

I guess I'm just ignorant...

It appears that most writers are happy with the status quo, which contradicts everything I've heard from writers up until now. Funny how important it is for some to defend the publishing industry over the writer--this is a writer's blog, isn't it?

As long as we allow the industry to treat writers with contempt, they will continue to do so. To say that we're all bad, bad, bad writers as an excuse for their behavior is silly. Some leadership in this regard would go along way, but it appears our leaders have jumped to the other side.

Thanks everyone. I'll try not to rock the boat anymore.

maestrowork · Jul 11, 2006

Who is treating writers with contempt? New writers are published EVERY DAY. Just because one can pick up a pen or open a word processor doesn't make them good writers. The publishing business is about making books that sell, to ensure quality. It's not a charity that tries to make writers feel good about themselves. The sooner one gets down from his high horse the sooner he can look into the mirror and see if he's a serious, publishable writer, not just a daydreamer who asks the world: gimme, gimme, gimme.

Gillhoughly · Jul 11, 2006

I'm an editor as well as a writer, and I can't tell you the pleasure it gives me to heap contempt upon myself every single day.

Have to go now. Behind in my heaping. :poke:

Zolah · Jul 11, 2006

Novus said:
It appears that most writers are happy with the status quo, which contradicts everything I've heard from writers up until now. Funny how important it is for some to defend the publishing industry over the writer--this is a writer's blog, isn't it?

As long as we allow the industry to treat writers with contempt, they will continue to do so. To say that we're all bad, bad, bad writers as an excuse for their behavior is silly. Some leadership in this regard would go along way, but it appears our leaders have jumped to the other side.

Thanks everyone. I'll try not to rock the boat anymore.

Firstly, this is a forum, not a blog.

Secondly - the fact that several people here have been polite enough to offer you advice and try to help you understand the way the industry works and why it is the way it is, and you respond with nothing but sarcasm, gives me a strong insight into the reason you're not getting the respect from agents and editors that you think you deserve. Because you're rude, and no one likes dealing with rude people. They certainly don't give respect to people who offer THEM no respect even if (big-whoop) they've finished a novel. You could be the next Charles Dickens and most agents and editors won't want to work with you if you cling to that attitude.

You ought to re-read this thread with a fresh eye and try to appreciate for a little while the many pieces of wisdom and good advice contained here. You should also try to appreciate the kindness and good nature of the responses. If you're incapable of doing that, I suggest you go out and kick some puppies - maybe that'll make you feel better.

TrickyFiction · Jul 11, 2006

I'm thinking someone's a little pissed off at Miss Snark.

Seriously, I've completed a novel. I don't feel any more special than anyone else. Creativity can be sculpting a masterpiece or taking a crap. I write because it's what I do, like breathing or sleeping or... taking a crap.

And, any agent, editor, or publisher who decides to turn their job angst into a humorous source of good information for aspiring writers has my unending gratitude for providing a FREE service for people to whom they owe nothing.

veinglory · Jul 11, 2006

Most unjustified venom starts with a group of people declaring themselves to be special and better than other people.

NeuroFizz · Jul 11, 2006

Hi again, Novus. Please don't feel that your thread is a waste of time. It is important to the emotional stability of us all. But be aware you started it out with some very serious and hard-hitting statements (nothing wrong with that here at AW), and several people are reacting to those statements. I do think that in this business, the cream will rise. It may not be immediate, and there may be some things we see as curds that make it to the top as well, but in an unpredictable business like this one, where reader dollars are hard-earned, it's the readers who hold the important rejection or acceptance slips (in their wallets). If you have the chance, get to know an agent or an editor, perhaps at a writing conference, and enquire about their sides of the business. You may develop a little more empathy. On the other hand, rudeness and poor professional potty training should not be tolerated from anyone in any position of this business.

sassandgroove · Jul 11, 2006

If you look around, there are working, published writers here, some posted in this thread. THere are editors and agents too. They don't have to take the time to post here and help newbies, but they do. Get off your high horse and you might learn something.

Tish Davidson · Jul 11, 2006

Novus said:
It appears that most writers are happy with the status quo, which contradicts everything I've heard from writers up until now. Funny how important it is for some to defend the publishing industry over the writer--this is a writer's blog, isn't it?

As long as we allow the industry to treat writers with contempt, they will continue to do so. To say that we're all bad, bad, bad writers as an excuse for their behavior is silly. Some leadership in this regard would go along way, but it appears our leaders have jumped to the other side.

Thanks everyone. I'll try not to rock the boat anymore.

So, what constructive suggestions can you make to change the way publishing works that will still allow it to operate at a profit and continue to pay writers? I'm open to suggestions. The vanity press, self-publishing model has failed in terms of making money for writers and getting their books read. E-books are so far a miniscule market with a small readership.
What can you suggest that would work better than the current model?

Bufty · Jul 11, 2006

Novus, did it ever occur to you that your Novel might not be written well enough to warrant an Agent's interest?

That's the main reason for rejections and the best reaction is to try and become a better writer.

HConn · Jul 11, 2006

Novus said:
It appears that most writers are happy with the status quo, which contradicts everything I've heard from writers up until now.

What is there to be unhappy about? If I write a good enough book and send it to the correct person, I have a chance to reach readers. No one is treating me with disrespect. Disinterest is more like it.

Novus said:
As long as we allow the industry to treat writers with contempt, they will continue to do so.

As far as I can tell, the industry does not treat writers with contempt. If you believe differently, show us some examples.

Novus said:
To say that we're all bad, bad, bad writers as an excuse for their behavior is silly.

Most of us are bad writers. That's our problem. If we wrote books people really wanted to read, they'd be in the stores right now.

Now, you may not want to accept that, but that's your obstacle to overcome (or not). I prefer to try to improve my writing until I'm at a professional level, if I can ever get there.

Novus said:
Thanks everyone. I'll try not to rock the boat anymore.

Dude, you didn't rock the boat. You're a recurring phenomenon. I'm tempted to create a text file of my own posts so I can just cut and paste them in to the next thread about how unfair the publishing industry is and how little respect writers supposedly get.

Deleted member 42 · Jul 11, 2006

Novus, writers are no more "special" than any other group.

And I think you need to spend more time writing, and reading, including reading what respected agents and editors have to say.

You might be surprised by the huge overlap between published writers/agents/editors. You also might be gratified to see, as I have, the reactions of editors and agents upon reading a ms. they love. I've seen editors and agents go to bat for the books they believe in. I've seen them put in countless extra hours, and call in favors, in order to support a book they believe in.

The secret to publishing is simple: Write a good book.

Your Voice/Publishing Industry's Arrogance

Novus

Over the hills and far away

Fear the Death Ray

Whore for genre

Sassy haircut

Bored fanatic

The grad students did it

Still Here!

Novus

Fear the Death Ray

Grumpy writer and editor

Over the hills and far away

Who?

volitare nequeo

The grad students did it

Sassy haircut

Where have the last ten years gone?

Whore for genre

Deleted member 42