Characters and grammar

Your characters should sound like real people, not Data the Android.

Go with your gut.

By all means write it how your character would say it.

Read Tom Sawyer.

scribbler1382 said:

Read Tom Sawyer.

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I wish I would have thought of that.

chaostitan said:

Your characters should sound like real people, not Data the Android.

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Unless your character is Data the Android. How a character speaks helps reveal their character. Their language and word choices are part of who they are.

How a character speaks adds to the reader's impression of the character. Few people use perfect grammar when speaking.

questionable grammar is fine as long as you don't go overboard.

No one speaks with flawless grammar. Just make sure they're still understandable, and you'll be fine.

I'm just wondering...what if your novel is written in first person, and you have a character who consistently speaks poor grammar? It's one thing to have idioms and double negatives in an occasional line of dialogue, but if it's a first person narrative, that means the reader will have to be prepared to deal with this throughout the entire novel.

I'm actually glad someone has posted this topic because it's been an area of concern for me, as well. One of the MC's in my novel is almost notoriously illiterate--at least verbally--but his narrative is the one that kicks off the book. Most beta readers have found him to be my most charming character (the Huck Finn comparisons come up a lot) but I've also had my share of readers who cringe and moan and slash through every "ain't" and "cause" until it looks like the page is bleeding.

I've had some concerns that opening the novel this way, with this particular character's voice, could have an adverse effect on potential readers. Will it make browsers apt to put the book back on the shelf? Admittedly, I probably know the answer already. As I've seen from my beta reader responses, people either love this character's voice (and are immediately drawn into the story as a result) or they hate it. I suspect there is not much in the way of a happy median here, because the simple truth is, there are some who will enjoy that folksy sort of voice and others who will be put off completely. And those peoples' tastes have already been formed, long before my book was ever written.

But I will say that I have done A LOT of work to edit, tighten and reel in the voice so that now, after more than five years of work, I can safely say the voice is as polished as I can get it without adversely changing it to something it's not. In other words, it is possible to remain true to your character's voice while at the same time editing and polishing for clarity and flow.

The most important thing is that the reader not be confused. A useful trick is to ask your beta readers to read passages aloud. If you find they are stumbling all over the dialogue because the grammar is tripping them up, that's probably a good indicator that you need to make it a little more accessible. (This usually involves, at worst, only a few minor alterations). But if the words flow, and the comprehension isn't affected, there's no reason to change your character's manner of speaking.

It sounds as if your beta readers are not reading to critique the story, but proofreading for proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation. I'd find new beta readers or else provide some instruction on what you'd like them to read for.

I always apply higher standards of grammar and punctuation to me, the narrator/author, than I do to the characters. People in speech do make mistakes, take shortcuts etc. I agree with the other posters who said that it can help to reveal the character.

So my advice would be to go for it.

Yup, it's fine. I'm rewriting a middle grade novel, and the main character is eleven. So I write the dialogue like an eleven-year-old would speak, but slightly modified. If your character says "kinda, gotta," or whatever, have them say it. BUT you don't have to constantly use it though. In one of my earlier works, I had a character who always said "ya" for "you." After reading the dialogue out loud, I realized I was writing "ya" too much. It's not necessary in getting the flavor of the speech across to the reader.

Becky Writes said:

Thanks for all the advice. I'm not going for a dilect or trying to make my characters come off as uneducated, but I do want them to sound "normal" and casual.

I also use a lot of "gonna"s, "wanna"s, "and "kinda"s

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That's what I do. It's dialogue. So they say what they'd say, how they'd say it. And like you, I'm talking about regular speech, not an accent or dumbed down, or anything, but more "Hey, pick me up a quart of milk" type-stuff.

blackbird said:

I'm actually glad someone has posted this topic because it's been an area of concern for me, as well. One of the MC's in my novel is almost notoriously illiterate--at least verbally--but his narrative is the one that kicks off the book. Most beta readers have found him to be my most charming character (the Huck Finn comparisons come up a lot) but I've also had my share of readers who cringe and moan and slash through every "ain't" and "cause" until it looks like the page is bleeding.

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This comes across as a case where you can't please all of the people all of the time. Maybe some people will put your book down after the first page, but there will be readers who do so for any story simply because it doesn't appeal to them. You said most of your betas are endeared by the character. That's an indication that it works and that there will be a reasonable response by readers at large as well.

If you're happy with how the story works and your feedback is as represented here then I'd say stick with it.

Amiton.

It is neither impolite nor bad form to present your character with human characteristics. What goes too far is the use of misspelled representations of the speech. These patterns can be shown through style, and do not need further embelishment. Accepted colloquial slang can be used.

Regarding the first person exposition, well, it has to be readable. I would not think that a complete hick would be telling a story. A partial one, I might be able to read. Again, the colloquial nature of the speech patterns is important. Maintaining the integrity of the character through description, exposition and dialogue can be tricky.

John Serra

blackbird said:

I'm just wondering...what if your novel is written in first person, and you have a character who consistently speaks poor grammar? It's one thing to have idioms and double negatives in an occasional line of dialogue, but if it's a first person narrative, that means the reader will have to be prepared to deal with this throughout the entire novel.
.

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First person should be written according to the rules of dialogue. Every line of narrative or description in first person is the protagonist speaking. The last thing you want to do is come out of character and lose the protagonist's voice. It isn't something readers have to deal with, if done well, it's something readers love, and is one of the big draws of first person. Read Huckleberry Finn.

Jamesaritchie said:

First person should be written according to the rules of dialogue. Every line of narrative or description in first person is the protagonist speaking. The last thing you want to do is come out of character and lose the protagonist's voice. It isn't something readers have to deal with, if done well, it's something readers love, and is one of the big draws of first person. Read Huckleberry Finn.

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Which, when done well, is why first person can be such a delight to read, and is certainly one of my favorite things to write. Done as dialogue, it's wonderful. Written as third-person narrative with "he" replaced with "I" it's both stiff and boring.

John Serra makes a good point, with not changing your spelling constantly to fit the dialect you're writing in. Give the impression of dialect, rather than an exact transcript of how someone who speaks Louisiana yat would actually speak.

Mostly, make the dialogue sound like something you can get away with saying out loud in public without being emberassing.

Jamesaritchie said:

First person should be written according to the rules of dialogue. Every line of narrative or description in first person is the protagonist speaking. The last thing you want to do is come out of character and lose the protagonist's voice. It isn't something readers have to deal with, if done well, it's something readers love, and is one of the big draws of first person. Read Huckleberry Finn.

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I think this answers the question I was going to ask: In first person, would narration or thought processes use the same voice as speech?

I find IRL that I, personally, think without an accent and in a more intelligent manner than I speak. How jarring is it to read that difference? My thoughts don't translate well into speech. Did any of this make any sense?

One thing to keep in mind for dialogue (and first-person narration) is that fiction is fiction, not real life. The dialogue should feel like it's real, but it's not actually real. (I read lots of transcripts in my legal work, and if you ever want to see what real speech is like, see if you can get your hands on a deposition transcript.)

Writing fiction dialogue, you're automatically editing out the real-life screw-ups like "um" and "er" and "like" and the random errors that spoken language has (like forgetting what the subject of the sentence was and trailing off and incomplete sentences). Unless, of course, there's a point to including these things, b/c it characterizes the speaker or indicates some action happening mid-speech.

Anyway, just make sure that if there are grammar "errors" or lapses, they are intentional and say something important about the character, rather than simply attempting to mimic real-life too much.

JD

I have a very old hard cover copy of Huckleberry Finn by Samuel Clemens, the pages yellowed with age. Books Inc., of New York, published the book but there is no publication date. I thought you might find the introductory page interesting, and I quote:


EXPLANATORY: In this book a number of dialects are used, to wit: the Missouri negro dialect; the extremest form of the backwoods South-Western dialect; the ordinary “Pike County” dialect; and four modified varieties of this last. The shadings have not been done in a haphazard fashion, or by guess-work; but pains-takingly, and with the trustworthy guidance and support of personal familiarity with these several forms of speech.

I make this explanation for the reason that without it many readers would suppose that all these characters were trying to talk alike and not succeeding. THE AUTHOR

I strive to be Sam Clemens when I'm old.

PeeDee said:

I strive to be Sam Clemens when I'm old.

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I suspect that when I'm old all that I'll be striving for is continence and youth!


Amiton.

PeeDee said:

I strive to be Sam Clemens when I'm old.

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I just strive to be that old!

John

And yet

Becky Writes said:

Thanks for all the advice. I'm not going for a dilect or trying to make my characters come off as uneducated, but I do want them to sound "normal" and casual.

I also use a lot of "gonna"s, "wanna"s, "and "kinda"s

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Putting in a lot of non-standard orthography draws the reader's attention to a lot of things that don't necessarily have much to do with the impact of the scene in question.