The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America) - Page 1173

TwentyFour · 01-09-2006, 07:23 AM

So true...

Quote:

Let's keep a watch. One year after his/her book is printed, I bet he/she will be singing a different tune

Nexusman · 01-09-2006, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Back at PA Infocenter chimes in:

Quote:
1. Royalties are paid on all books that are sold to and paid for by the retailer.
2. If a retailer later returns a book and receives our refund, the already paid royalty on that refunded book will be subtracted from the first next royalty check.
3. According to Ingram, retailers have up to 18 months to return unsold books.

__________________

Okay, someone help me out on this: citing item number two, would it be possible if, after one royalty period payments were made, enough books were returned so that the total returns actually exceeded the royalties paid previously for the author to actually receive an invoice for royalties paid owed back for returns? (Holy awkwardly-worded sentences, Batman...) This is just an extrapolation on my part but I wouldn't put it past PA.

-Nick

spacejock2 · 01-09-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexusman

Okay, someone help me out on this: citing item number two, would it be possible if, after one royalty period payments were made, enough books were returned so that the total returns actually exceeded the royalties paid previously for the author to actually receive an invoice for royalties paid owed back for returns? (Holy awkwardly-worded sentences, Batman...) This is just an extrapolation on my part but I wouldn't put it past PA.

-Nick

Publishers hold back 10-20% of each royalty payment against future returns. So, if they owe you $5000 for a six month period they'll pay $4000 and carry the $1000 over to the next royalty statement. If they owe you $2000 for the following statement you get $1600 plus the $1000 held over, less any returns which came in in the meantime. And so on.

Cheers
Simon

DaveKuzminski · 01-09-2006, 05:08 PM

I'm going to make a prediction here about PA that it will definitely revolutionize the publishing industry... the day it goes into a courtroom and causes sweeping changes like the Thor Power Hammer case. Only in PA's case, it will probably cause legal requirements that all contracts be written to state exactly what they mean and not use weasel words.

spike · 01-09-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveKuzminski

I'm going to make a prediction here about PA that it will definitely revolutionize the publishing industry... the day it goes into a courtroom and causes sweeping changes like the Thor Power Hammer case. Only in PA's case, it will probably cause legal requirements that all contracts be written to state exactly what they mean and not use weasel words.

OK, what is the Thor Power Hammer case?

James D. Macdonald · 01-09-2006, 06:06 PM

Thor Power Tool. A tax case. Essentially, it said that items in warehouse had to be taxed at full market value. What it did was made sure that publishers put books out of print if they were selling slowly, so as not to be taxed on unsold, and possilby unsaleable, merchandise.

The industry has already adjusted, with multiple smaller printings.

Far more details here:

http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/thor.htm

SC Harrison · 01-09-2006, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacejock2

Publishers hold back 10-20% of each royalty payment against future returns. So, if they owe you $5000 for a six month period they'll pay $4000 and carry the $1000 over to the next royalty statement. If they owe you $2000 for the following statement you get $1600 plus the $1000 held over, less any returns which came in in the meantime. And so on.

Cheers
Simon

So, to translate this into PAese, the author gets a statement showing sales that equal $6.00 in royalties, but, due to a few returns, they are paid zero. Or, their first statement has zero due to PA "banking" against future returns. Thus furthering the mentality that authors buying the books themselves and reselling is the best way. Great.

spike · 01-09-2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald

Thor Power Tool. A tax case. Essentially, it said that items in warehouse had to be taxed at full market value. What it did was made sure that publishers put books out of print if they were selling slowly, so as not to be taxed on unsold, and possilby unsaleable, merchandise.

The industry has already adjusted, with multiple smaller printings.

Far more details here:

http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/thor.htm

Thanks! And the link gave perfect explaination of how it works.

postshy · 01-09-2006, 07:10 PM

Gee, you have withstood Encyclopedia Britanica, Phil Dolan, Atlanta Nights, The Purple Pony and Cancer Boy so far. Your bastions are impregnable, especially while "newbies", whose books have not yet been published, continue to kiss the ground and thank you for giving them "the chance they deserve". Of course they have not yet found out that their books will not be in bookstores "from sea to shining sea" and if you ban enough "oldies", they won't find out until a year hence, when they will have bought lots of their own books.

My book has been out for slightly over two years and you have gone from 4,000 to 18,000???? authors, but note the trend. The word is out and, as you continue to ban strong voices, we ARE going to bring you down. I resent that some of your new authors, who do not know the score, still call us LIARS, but are too chicken to challenge us on this forum. If I am to be called a liar, I would like "my day in court" to show my evidence, as would many others, I am sure.

Now it seems you are working on another way to cheat us out of our royalties. Is the excuse going to be "holdback" on our minuscule royalties as well as the infamous "you have to wait 90 days as we have not been paid for your book yet"? All baloney! Is that the reason you paid me royalties in APRIL, instead of FEBRUARY 2004 when I made a stink? Is that not in direct contravention of your Contract?

My sincere request: ex PAers please take the time to put your stories on the web so that it does not look as if they are only eight or nine of us, when we know they are actually hundreds, if not thousands, of authors "UNHAPPY" with PA.

My second request: Those of you yet unpublished, or thinking of using PA's services, read the stories on the web; access this forum (a lot of you read it anyway). Do not buy your own books until you have ALL the facts and do not SIGN with PA until you hear the truth. We can supply documented evidence of PA's lying and abusive tone letters. We are not LIARS. Take the challenge!

postshy/Roberta

TwentyFour · 01-09-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: Guess what I found out

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was playing around on the internet typing my name in and then my book titles and I came on my book H&B. I was thrilled! Then I looked closer and saw that it was under testimonials for PA. Well, I did write one to PA when my first book was published and so I clicked on it and to my surprise, it was a paragraph from this messege board. I spoke highly of PA (and still do) and realized that PA is going through the boards and picking out the good we say about them and placing them on its testimonial page.

I have no problem with that, but I kind of feel violated. Couldn't PA have asked me if they could use it (I would have said yes) instead of stealing it from me?

How does everyone else feel about this? BTW. other author's had testimonials on the page too.

... a bit of irony there, they can't ask a writer to give them a review or testimonial so they take it off the ever popular message board....

TwentyFour · 01-09-2006, 07:15 PM

WTG ROBERTA...We all support you!

James D. Macdonald · 01-09-2006, 07:16 PM

I think that PA is planning to dedect the royalties of returned books from future royalty checks.

This would work great if there were future royalty checks.

What I think they're banking on is that with the 5% discount there will be darned few returns because there will be darned few ordered.

Sparhawk · 01-09-2006, 08:53 PM

Publish America: squashing dreams one author at a time.

SC Harrison · 01-09-2006, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald

What I think they're banking on is that with the 5% discount there will be darned few returns because there will be darned few ordered.

I think you're right, and I think they're right.

astonwest · 01-09-2006, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo Scott

... a bit of irony there, they can't ask a writer to give them a review or testimonial so they take it off the ever popular message board....

That's why they post the disclaimer about using anything you put on the message board for marketing and promotional purposes.

Ol' Fashioned Girl · 01-10-2006, 02:05 AM

I was sitting at my desk today, just doing my job and signing up a new insurance client. As I filled out her paperwork for her, we chatted. She mentioned that she was a writer in her spare time. The other lady in the office bubbled up and informed the new client that I was just recently published and might be able to help her with her endeavor to find a publisher.

Boy, did I help her! That's one less for them to get their hooks into!

TwentyFour · 01-10-2006, 03:42 AM

I get bored and read the PA site at times and post here what is said...

Well, I came across something that made me sit up and wonder....

Why has the Info guy at PA not taken this out....

Quote:

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PA's return policy is probably not worth the discussion. What bookstore is going to order with only a 5% discount on high priced books from unknown authors? It's not logical. I wouldn't ask the store manager to do it.

Someone has made it clear on the message boards that PA has a bad return policy and how it is not even "logical" for a bookstore to order from unknowns.

AnnaWhite · 01-10-2006, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Fashioned Girl

Boy, did I help her! That's one less for them to get their hooks into!

Great job!

I had a friend of my brother's phone today and ask about my book, so I described PublishAmerica's business plan. He was suitably shocked, and labelled PA as criminals even before I did. I thoroughly enjoyed it, since all my relatives and closer friends are sick of hearing me talk about PublishAmerica. Then my brother told me this friend of his is one the biggest gossips in London, and doubtless half the City will know about it by next week... yippeee!!! thus the word spreads!!!! who can stop the fire now?

Christine N. · 01-10-2006, 04:00 AM

Yes, and there was this reply...

Quote:

Where did you get that figure? Pa only gives a 5% discount through Ingram? I was under the impression that Ingram received a 55% discount and that they then pass a substanial part of that discount onto the retailer. A 5% discount is not only worhtless it's counter productive. Any retailer would be offended by such a policy. This sounds like a lot of the deceptive policies coming out of Washington right now such as the precription drug benefits for seniors. Yeah, there's a drug benfit It just doesn't cover the vast majority of drugs most seniors use and the drugs that are most widely use have gone up in price more than double the discount being offered. It's not a lie, it's just highly disceptive and basically just a ripoff. I have a real issue with this kind of a ploy. I did find out today that the return policy is only available to Ingram and that if a retailer orders the book directly from PA there is no returnability but that there is a substantial discount policy. That's straightforward and I don't have any problem with that. I hope this return issue is more than just a an advertising ploy because it will ultimately discredit not only PA but all of PA's authors.

By Jove, I think he's got it!

TwentyFour · 01-10-2006, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 2
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: Returned books

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK,try this on.Go to amazon.com and read their ad that states that they will buy back any book that you bought from them at a reduced amount.
They also state that they sell used books at a reduced price.

So what is to prevent them from selling,buying back and reselling your book a zillion times and then return it to PA thus screwing you out of your royalty?

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject:Returned books

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to relate my personal experience where the return policy is concerned.

My latest release, "XXXXXXXXXXX," is classed as returnable and apparently qualifies for a 20% discount from Ingrams.

I've been trying hard to have it stocked by Chapters, the major book chain here in Canada.

This is the response I just received today from their head office:

Hello XXXXX, congratulations on having your books published.

Unfortunately, we can't consider stocking your books in our stores because of the discount offered. Both are shown on our website and are available to all customers that way.

Thank you very much.

LOL...I think PA has a disgruntled author on the board...bet he/she will soon be banned!

xhouseboy · 01-10-2006, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Why are you all so happy with PA's explanation?

Did you read item #2 which states that any royalties paid to you from a book sale will be taken back out of your next royalty payment if the book is returned?

I don't get it.No wonder my last royalty check was for less than $1.00.

This guy's clued-up - he'll be over here soon.

Memphis Ed · 01-10-2006, 05:09 AM

There are a few of them wising up over at PAMB about the return policy. Even some of the old-timers are beginning to see the deal.

mdin · 01-10-2006, 05:47 AM

The thread has been moved to the private forum.

CJLewis · 01-10-2006, 05:54 AM

Does this make it any more clear for the author who is jumping up and down for joy at being "returnable?" First, PA's position on the matter:

"Ingram set's their own policy for their discounts. If a retailer
would like to order through Ingram and is interested in knowing their
discounts, they would need to contact Ingram directly.

Have a nice day." From PA Support.

infocenter2
Site Admin
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 18
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 20056:26 am Post subject:

Again, yes, it is confusing, but it is not a problem. It's the same situation that has existed for decades, and is totally beyond the control of all publishers.
PublishAmerica's wholesale and retail discounts continue to range between 30 and 55 percent. If a bookstore says that they receive a discount of five percent, then that is something between them and their wholesaler, and the result of an arrangement that PublishAmerica is not involved in and/or has ever been informed about, and that no bookstore has ever complained to us about. Thanks for letting us know, though.
Again, this is not a problem, it is the normal situation. Also normal is the fact that so far this month bookstores have ordered more PA books than ever before!

"I do not have access to what discount our customers receive from us but I can tell you that we order this title from Lightning Source who gives us a discount that is well below a regular trade discount. We buy the title nonreturnable which lowers the discount that we give our customers even more. If you have any other questions, let me know." From Baker & Taylor

"Terms of Sale
Publishers determine the suggested retail list price and wholesale discount of each book submitted to LSI. The publisher may change the list price and/or wholesale discouint by notifying LSI at least 45 days in advance of the effective change, and the change will be updated in the LSI system on the first day of LSI's fiscal accounting month. The publisher determines the wholesale price at which it sells the book to LSI. LSI pays the publisher the wholesale price less the cost of printing for each book printed. A standard trade discount of 55%, with a "returnable" status allows for the widest availability through our wholesalers and retailers. While LSI accepts short discounts as low as 20% off of list price, setting a short discount significantly limits the the distribution of a title in the retail market. Some major chain retailers and wholesalers will not order a short discount book."

From the Lightening Source Publisher's Manual Read the last two sentences again. I'm not surprised that PA was unaware of the discount situation--after all, they don't read anything that comes across their desk; right?

Any questions, class? Hey PAMB members, are we just making this stuff up? Are we liars?

DaveKuzminski · 01-10-2006, 07:03 AM

I suspect PA may be releasing a few selected individuals who ask for their books back in order to influence them into continuing their supportive statements on PA's behalf by not tagging on any conditions in the reversion contract. Now if only PA would do that for all of its authors who request a release.

01-09-2006, 05:08 PM	#29304
DaveKuzminski Preditors & Editors Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 5,028	I'm going to make a prediction here about PA that it will definitely revolutionize the publishing industry... the day it goes into a courtroom and causes sweeping changes like the Thor Power Hammer case. Only in PA's case, it will probably cause legal requirements that all contracts be written to state exactly what they mean and not use weasel words. __________________ When it comes to PA, the royalty check and the reality check arrive in the same envelope. Remember to be kind to writers who step in PA. They really don't know how bad it smells. The difference between PA and WLA? None. Both have the stench of dead and dying books emanating from their doorways.

01-09-2006, 06:06 PM	#29306
James D. Macdonald Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 21,577	Thor Power Tool. A tax case. Essentially, it said that items in warehouse had to be taxed at full market value. What it did was made sure that publishers put books out of print if they were selling slowly, so as not to be taxed on unsold, and possilby unsaleable, merchandise. The industry has already adjusted, with multiple smaller printings. Far more details here: http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/thor.htm __________________ "The Clockwork Trollop" by Debra Doyle & James D. Macdonald Free online. Text and podcast.

01-09-2006, 07:10 PM	#29309
postshy practical experience, FTW Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 199	O.K. PA, wipe that smirk off your face.... Gee, you have withstood Encyclopedia Britanica, Phil Dolan, Atlanta Nights, The Purple Pony and Cancer Boy so far. Your bastions are impregnable, especially while "newbies", whose books have not yet been published, continue to kiss the ground and thank you for giving them "the chance they deserve". Of course they have not yet found out that their books will not be in bookstores "from sea to shining sea" and if you ban enough "oldies", they won't find out until a year hence, when they will have bought lots of their own books. My book has been out for slightly over two years and you have gone from 4,000 to 18,000???? authors, but note the trend. The word is out and, as you continue to ban strong voices, we ARE going to bring you down. I resent that some of your new authors, who do not know the score, still call us LIARS, but are too chicken to challenge us on this forum. If I am to be called a liar, I would like "my day in court" to show my evidence, as would many others, I am sure. Now it seems you are working on another way to cheat us out of our royalties. Is the excuse going to be "holdback" on our minuscule royalties as well as the infamous "you have to wait 90 days as we have not been paid for your book yet"? All baloney! Is that the reason you paid me royalties in APRIL, instead of FEBRUARY 2004 when I made a stink? Is that not in direct contravention of your Contract? My sincere request: ex PAers please take the time to put your stories on the web so that it does not look as if they are only eight or nine of us, when we know they are actually hundreds, if not thousands, of authors "UNHAPPY" with PA. My second request: Those of you yet unpublished, or thinking of using PA's services, read the stories on the web; access this forum (a lot of you read it anyway). Do not buy your own books until you have ALL the facts and do not SIGN with PA until you hear the truth. We can supply documented evidence of PA's lying and abusive tone letters. We are not LIARS. Take the challenge! postshy/Roberta Last edited by postshy; 01-10-2006 at 04:17 AM.

01-09-2006, 07:16 PM	#29312
James D. Macdonald Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 21,577	I think that PA is planning to dedect the royalties of returned books from future royalty checks. This would work great if there were future royalty checks. What I think they're banking on is that with the 5% discount there will be darned few returns because there will be darned few ordered. __________________ "The Clockwork Trollop" by Debra Doyle & James D. Macdonald Free online. Text and podcast.

01-09-2006, 08:53 PM	#29313
Sparhawk Jenna's Cabana Boy Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: in the state of Delusion Posts: 1,070	Publish America: squashing dreams one author at a time. __________________ Truth is a 3 edged sword. There's your version, my version and what actually happened. Friends don't let their friends write for Publish America. Be a friend and save an Author http://www.xanga.com/Sword_slinger : Read the musings of a warped mind HYBRID: Available at LBF Books www.lbfbooks.com HYBRID: FORCED VENGEANCE in Jan 2010 from Lachesis Publishing

01-09-2006, 07:15 PM	#29311
TwentyFour practical experience, FTW Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,799	WTG ROBERTA...We all support you!

01-10-2006, 02:05 AM	#29316
Ol' Fashioned Girl It's a Bird! It's a Plane! It's an AW Moderator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Up... up... and away! Posts: 14,724	One less 'happy author' for their future... I was sitting at my desk today, just doing my job and signing up a new insurance client. As I filled out her paperwork for her, we chatted. She mentioned that she was a writer in her spare time. The other lady in the office bubbled up and informed the new client that I was just recently published and might be able to help her with her endeavor to find a publisher. Boy, did I help her! That's one less for them to get their hooks into! __________________ aka: OFG Click us... come on! Click us. You want to. You know you do.

01-10-2006, 05:09 AM	#29322
Memphis Ed Big Elvis fan Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 323	There are a few of them wising up over at PAMB about the return policy. Even some of the old-timers are beginning to see the deal. __________________ Memphis Ed ___________________ Member-Authors Guild Ed's new book, "The Kindness Revolution", is now availalble at your local bookstore.

01-10-2006, 05:47 AM	#29323
mdin The late, the great XThe NavigatorX Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 2,375	The thread has been moved to the private forum. __________________ My Art

01-10-2006, 05:54 AM	#29324
CJLewis New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20	Return Policy Does this make it any more clear for the author who is jumping up and down for joy at being "returnable?" First, PA's position on the matter: "Ingram set's their own policy for their discounts. If a retailer would like to order through Ingram and is interested in knowing their discounts, they would need to contact Ingram directly. Have a nice day." From PA Support. infocenter2 Site Admin Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 18 Posted: Fri Nov 25, 20056:26 am Post subject: Again, yes, it is confusing, but it is not a problem. It's the same situation that has existed for decades, and is totally beyond the control of all publishers. PublishAmerica's wholesale and retail discounts continue to range between 30 and 55 percent. If a bookstore says that they receive a discount of five percent, then that is something between them and their wholesaler, and the result of an arrangement that PublishAmerica is not involved in and/or has ever been informed about, and that no bookstore has ever complained to us about. Thanks for letting us know, though. Again, this is not a problem, it is the normal situation. Also normal is the fact that so far this month bookstores have ordered more PA books than ever before! "I do not have access to what discount our customers receive from us but I can tell you that we order this title from Lightning Source who gives us a discount that is well below a regular trade discount. We buy the title nonreturnable which lowers the discount that we give our customers even more. If you have any other questions, let me know." From Baker & Taylor "Terms of Sale Publishers determine the suggested retail list price and wholesale discount of each book submitted to LSI. The publisher may change the list price and/or wholesale discouint by notifying LSI at least 45 days in advance of the effective change, and the change will be updated in the LSI system on the first day of LSI's fiscal accounting month. The publisher determines the wholesale price at which it sells the book to LSI. LSI pays the publisher the wholesale price less the cost of printing for each book printed. A standard trade discount of 55%, with a "returnable" status allows for the widest availability through our wholesalers and retailers. While LSI accepts short discounts as low as 20% off of list price, setting a short discount significantly limits the the distribution of a title in the retail market. Some major chain retailers and wholesalers will not order a short discount book." From the Lightening Source Publisher's Manual Read the last two sentences again. I'm not surprised that PA was unaware of the discount situation--after all, they don't read anything that comes across their desk; right? Any questions, class? Hey PAMB members, are we just making this stuff up? Are we liars?

01-10-2006, 07:03 AM	#29325
DaveKuzminski Preditors & Editors Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 5,028	I suspect PA may be releasing a few selected individuals who ask for their books back in order to influence them into continuing their supportive statements on PA's behalf by not tagging on any conditions in the reversion contract. Now if only PA would do that for all of its authors who request a release. __________________ When it comes to PA, the royalty check and the reality check arrive in the same envelope. Remember to be kind to writers who step in PA. They really don't know how bad it smells. The difference between PA and WLA? None. Both have the stench of dead and dying books emanating from their doorways.

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