The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[Sheryl Nantus]

Originally Posted by Bufty

I followed the whole thread and in particular was surprised to learn the position of someone I have hitherto viewed as a cheerleader, but whose position I now understand and respect.

What I do not yet understand, however, is how any PA Board poster - who is aware of PA's fraud and the difficulties that lie ahead - can continue to enthusiastically and repeatedly post and contribute to the maintenance of a deceptively welcoming and encouraging environment for new 'I've been accepted for publication' writers who are thus drawn deeper and tighter into PA's web.

Am I right in thinking that the PA Message Boards are an essential contributor to keeping PA afloat?

I'm not sure I could "understand and respect" anyone who would willingly offer up new authors to the PA meatgrinder with a smile and a nod. Surely anyone with a whit of a conscience would balk at the idea of feeding the beast fresh meat.

Even if they've figured out the PA "system" and want to continue within it for some vague reason (that's beyond logic) I cannot for the life of me understand why they would continue to post such platitudes.

*shrug*

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Heck, Sheryl, for that matter, I don't understand how anyone who knows all about PA can say, "Well, if all you want is a dollar and a free two copies of your book, PA's probably the right place for you." That's a sentiment I see expressed here all the time. I suppose if it were amended to "If all you want is a dollar and a free two copies of your book and you don't mind PA owning publishing rights for seven years--and if you don't mind supporting an abusive, fraudulent company..." I wouldn't be so flabbergasted to see it.

If all you want is two free copies, and if you don't mind foregoing PA's symbolic dollar advance, I think buying yourself two reasonably priced copies publishing by LuLu.com is actually the better option. It's more expensive as far as money goes, but there are other things of value in this world. For instance: having more control over your book, keeping the option to go to a commerical publisher, not having to deal with abusive letters from PA Author Support, not crying yourself to sleep at night.

[DaveKuzminski]

Originally Posted by NicoleJLeBoeuf

Heck, Sheryl, for that matter, I don't understand how anyone who knows all about PA can say, "Well, if all you want is a dollar and a free two copies of your book, PA's probably the right place for you." That's a sentiment I see expressed here all the time.

Personally, I'd like to see about 50,000 authors submit trunk books to PA, take the dollar and the two free copies, and then sit and watch as PA implodes when they realize that no one is going to purchase anything and they've got all that newly hired staff to pay because everyone wanted their manuscripts edited by PA and all those setup fees to pay their printer.

Just think of all the reading their forum monitors would have to handle to prevent real information from being distributed. It just boggles the mind.

[Sparhawk]

Originally Posted by DaveKuzminski

Personally, I'd like to see about 50,000 authors submit trunk books to PA, take the dollar and the two free copies, and then sit and watch as PA implodes when they realize that no one is going to purchase anything and they've got all that newly hired staff to pay because everyone wanted their manuscripts edited by PA and all those setup fees to pay their printer.

Just think of all the reading their forum monitors would have to handle to prevent real information from being distributed. It just boggles the mind.

Dave... You are an absolute genius. Flood the PA with stuff, buy nothing and sit back and watch the fireworks . I wonder ho wmany "Author Specials" would come out if such an idea could be implemented ?

[Memphis Ed]

Originally Posted by Sparhawk

Dave... You are an absolute genius. Flood the PA with stuff, buy nothing and sit back and watch the fireworks . I wonder ho wmany "Author Specials" would come out if such an idea could be implemented ?

This is actually a pretty good idea...get every we know to send in an MS.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Originally Posted by DaveKuzminski

Personally, I'd like to see about 50,000 authors submit trunk books to PA, take the dollar and the two free copies, and then sit and watch as PA implodes when they realize that no one is going to purchase anything and they've got all that newly hired staff to pay because everyone wanted their manuscripts edited by PA and all those setup fees to pay their printer.

OK, well, that is an excellent reason to send PA a book. If I had a trunked novel to send, I'd totally do it. Maybe a collection of trunked short stories?

Note that this falls under the category of "not minding the 7-year contract."

[aruna]

oooh, yes! And then we'd all join their message boards and post revealing messages every day! We'd get banned of course, but no matter, as there's be a constant stream of us coming in from behind...

[Ken Schneider]

Somewhere back upstream around the bend, there was mention of doing this,(submitting scores of unwanted first tries at writing). I don't know if I could do it.


But, I'm sure my sister wouldn't mind helping.

[roach]

Originally Posted by DaveKuzminski

Personally, I'd like to see about 50,000 authors submit trunk books to PA, take the dollar and the two free copies, and then sit and watch as PA implodes when they realize that no one is going to purchase anything and they've got all that newly hired staff to pay because everyone wanted their manuscripts edited by PA and all those setup fees to pay their printer.

Just think of all the reading their forum monitors would have to handle to prevent real information from being distributed. It just boggles the mind.

I suspect that the PA "editors" would just put a cap on how many manuscripts they accepted. I remember reading somewhere upstream (Uncle Jim said it I believe) that they will reject every manuscript that comes in after the daily quota is reached.

Then PA gets to post another news bit on their page about how the number of submissions has increased ten-fold and that they reject most of them, thus proving how selective they are.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Originally Posted by roach

I suspect that the PA "editors" would just put a cap on how many manuscripts they accepted. I remember reading somewhere upstream (Uncle Jim said it I believe) that they will reject every manuscript that comes in after the daily quota is reached.

And that's why ya gotta get up early to email them yer trunk novel.

[Bonnie Gibson]

Originally Posted by XThe NavigatorX

Bonnie, do you still have an Ingram account for your store? Will you be able to tell us what it says for the 'returnable' books once it supposedly turns on?

And I will. I will keep checking some of the books on Ingram ipage and will post what I find. If anyone knows of a book that sells 40 or more in September, just let me know.

Bonnie

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Lifeforce

Now, about getting out of the contract. I recently read with enthusiasm that they were being sued for infringement of copyright and that they have changed their name to Publishbritannia. Does this mean that my book is now completely my own agan, as I'm signed to PublishBrittanica?

Not at this time, no. You may be able to make a case for that once the lawsuit is settled. Your best course of action would be to talk with a lawyer with experience in publishing law.

Or, as my contract clearly states that they will publish my book within 365 days of the signing of the contract, when that time period is up in 6 weeks time and it is still not publised (hopefully) can I then demand my rights back due to their breaching my contract terms?

I am not a lawyer, but I think so; definitely talk to a lawyer with experience with publishing law about that. Whether or not you can get PA to stop printing or distributing your book even though they don't have the rights, though, is anyone's guess.

Whatever you do, start work on your next book, and then your next. Leave PA far, far behind. Good luck.

[Twoclots]

Originally Posted by Tilda

Good for you, Aruna. Be in no doubt that you will be flamed there for saying this, though. It is the cult mentality that keeps people in the clutches of PA, that fear of "if PA isn't the traditional pubber it poses to be, maybe my writing isn't good after all..."
What you said about people wanting to "play author", that's what it is. PA is a secure place to be lulled into believing you're now one of the likes of John Grisham and J.K. Rowling. That without TRULY having to work for your craft, research publishing and submitting, generally getting your fingers bloody. As an example, many people at the PAMB seem to have had their book edited by someone else, and that alone says heaps.
PAers: Being a writer is not just about being a good storyteller. Most people walking on the streets have stories in them. Your bank manager likely has stories in him/her. Being a real writer is being a master of language and manipulating it to get your story out. Language is the core of writing, and if someone can't master it without buying writing software or letting others edit their work, then they are not ready to be published. Yet.

Tilda, spot on, m'dear! I have been in a quandry ever since being accepted by PA, can I write? Are family and friends just being polite? Luckily, and thanks to PA (thieving swines!) I have had sufficient feedback from people unknown to me, to realise I do have some kind of way with words (spelling, well that's another matter!) Perhaps that in inself is worth righting off one aged book for. Cheers PA, perhaps I won after all!

[Bonnie Gibson]

Dear Author,


Every hour of every business day, bookstores nationwide order and stock a new PublishAmerica title. The store manager has decided to stock it because he believes that the book will sell. As a result, thousands of PublishAmerica books are sitting proudly on bookstore shelves all across the fruited plain.


I'm sending an email to PA and telling them to PROVE this! If they can't prove this then this is false advertising.

Every hour of every business day? Since they have been in business? If they can prove to me every hour of every business day for the month of September that bookstores nationwide have ordered and stocked a PA book, I'll fall out.


Bonnie

[Bonnie Gibson]

Dear PA,
Can you prove this? If you can prove this then I will believe you. Just email me the proof. If you cannot prove this then maybe this is false advertising, huh?
I look forward to getting invoices proving that bookstores across the nation order and stock Publishamerica books every hour of every business day.
Just show me the proof.
Bonnie Gibson

[DaveKuzminski]

Doesn't matter if they have a cutoff each day and reject the rest. Just keep sending it until it's in the batch that arrives early enough for acceptance. Then don't buy any. Sooner or later, the PA system will implode for lack of funds coming in because of a lack of gullible writers.

In fact, make sure your trunked novel has some real errors in it so they won't even suspect you know anything about writing. Then we can keep count of how many Atlanta Night clones they accepted and actually published.

Bonnie, remember to email the FTC on that, too.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

ex·tor·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-stôrshn)
n.
1. The act or an instance of extorting.
2. Illegal use of one's official position or powers to obtain property, funds, or patronage.
3. An excessive or exorbitant charge.
4. Something extorted.


As someone mentioned, couldn't this be extortion? You buy forty books and we will make sure you are on the return list first. They are our publisher and since they have gotten rid of the no-returns policy then we should all be on that list, them saying people who buy/buy/sell (did I say buy twice?) 40 copies will go on first is just extortion. They are trying to get money from us, hence the sales pitch, and in doing this they are trying to get patronage from their authors. Sounds like extortion in my book, but maybe Jaws can clear this up.

Also, like in mine and Spar's predicement, can't them sending the cops to our house be extortion?

An excessive or exorbitant charge.

They claimed fraud on me even though they knew it wouldn't stick.

[DaveKuzminski]

In the first instance, it's probably merely an incentive (for them, unfortunately). In the second, I feel it was an attempt to intimidate you. Depends on what, if anything, was demanded as to whether it was extortion. Still, Jaws is the expert on what those are.

[Memphis Ed]

....this may be the yukker of all time.

New PA author sends in two books to be publsihed. One non-fiction, one sci-fi.

Author gets notice that the books are going to combined into one. Boing!!!

Apparently, this got worked out, but puhlease.....

[LV Dutton]

Originally Posted by Bonnie Gibson

Dear PA,
Can you prove this? If you can prove this then I will believe you. Just email me the proof. If you cannot prove this then maybe this is false advertising, huh?
I look forward to getting invoices proving that bookstores across the nation order and stock Publishamerica books every hour of every business day.
Just show me the proof.
Bonnie Gibson

Hell I want to see that proof, they say they are a traditional publisher, and acording to some there are those out there, legal and all that that actually do that. But PA is honing in on that fact and trying to get stuff from people.

I gave up a book to them, they will not get anyone elses.

[Jacob Fox]

Funny story, I have been talking to my mom a lot lately about PA. My mom has been pushing me towards trying to get published for a LONG time. She doesn't know enough about the publishing industry (as I didn't in April when I stupidly and blindly sent PA my novel) to get upset about things the way that I have been. As my mother, she is just happy to see my book in print. Whenever I complain about PA, she sort of gets distant eyes and you can tell she wishes I would stop.

Well, finally, today I said the magic words: "Well, my book won't make ANY money through Publish America."

Haha. That was all it took. She's now on my side about the whole debacle. Aren't mothers great?

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by Monty

However I would still think if this PA return policy is for real then I could finally make some headway. As I am a prisoner of there policies for another five years so I got to get as many sales now as I can while this door remains open because I don't see it lasting that long.

No, Monty, the door is not open.

Even after you get past the returns issue (if they truly do it rather than just talk about experimenting with it), there's still the short discount, the high cover price, the lack of a catalog, the lack of a sales force, the lack of reviews, the lack of promotion and marketing, the cheesy covers, the poor editing, and PA's dreadful reputation to get by.

If you send any money to them at all you will have paid to get published. It won't give you one additional sale. Not one.

[LV Dutton]

I was thinking about the PA and their poor editing, my uncle is an editor for a local paper, and of course taught at a local high school, before I even set my story into PA I had him look it over from beginning to end looking for errors. He found several actually. I wonder if PA would have even noticed

[Lady of Prose]

It is amazing and mind boggling--the mass hypnosis that goes on with the PA authors, AST and Info-center.

Those otherwise intelligent people who were questioning the idiot attempt of PA to use the "return policy" deal to manipulate authors into buying a mass amount of books--are now praising PA for a scheme that can never work, because of what Jim pointed out; short returns, high price, poor quality, and editing.

I cannot believe it! They are still buying into all the garbage, and setting themselves and others up as sitting ducks!

TO PA "AUTHORS" LURKING --To answer the question "Is PA still POD? YES!!!

Will the "return policy" help get your book into the store? NO!!! PA's reputation precedes them in the bookstores and publishing world. Most bookstore owners used the "no return policy" as a polite excuse, in order to keep from causing you extreme embarrassment for being connected with dung like PA.

Did you people ever, ever consider that all of the experts all over the web just might be right about PA? Do you really care that you have been scammed to high heaven and are encouraging others to sign with PA. What is wrong with you??? Where are your brains??? Just listen to your drivel on the boards--you contradict yourselves left and right, because you are so confused. You know in your hearts you are NOT published. You are only PRINTED, as I am. We are vanity, and poor vanity at that---Geez, people, WAKE UP!!

[aruna]

Originally Posted by Lady of Prose

Did you people ever, ever consider that all of the experts all over the web just might be right about PA? Do you really care that you have been scammed to high heaven and are encouraging others to sign with PA. What is wrong with you??? Where are your brains??? Just listen to your drivel on the boards--you contradict yourselves left and right, because you are so confused. You know in your hearts you are NOT published. You are only PRINTED, as I am. We are vanity, and poor vanity at that---Geez, people, WAKE UP!!

Lady, that's what I tried to tell them in my post on Shelagh's forum. I've been having pricks of conscience since then as it's out of character for me to be so direct - but on the other hand I think they need to know that it's not just us who thnk like this.

Many of them - on Shelagh's board - insisted that they went into PA with their eyes open, they CHOSE PA, they accept all the consequences. Well: the one consequence the ALSO have to accept is that the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does not consider them to be legitimately published authors. It's not just the members of this board or those of us who posted on Shelagh's forum. We are the ones who tried to tell them KINDLY. They kept slapping us and telling us to shut up. I really had no option but to say it as bluntly as I could.

The problem is that for many PA authors the whole enterprise was an exercize in ego-building. The ability to say "I am a published author". To bask in the applause of family and friends, to finally feel "I am somebody". And this is the fatal flaw in attitude. I once read a sentence at the very start of my writing which kept me on track: There are those who want to be writers. And there are those who want to be KNOWN AS writers.

I feel that self-esteem must be in place before you start your writing career, or at least grow alongside it. You can't use your "published" status to feel important. If your only sense of worth comes from the feeling "I am a published author" you've got a problem - whether you're with PA or anyone else, but more so with PA because it's an imaginary bubble, and sooner or later it will burst.

PA lurkers: You can play the game happily on the boards, but as you are already experiencing, the moment you try to interact with the real world - with bookshops that reject you, with editors and agent who don't recognise your "writing credits", with authors' societies who won't accept you, with serious reviewers (as opposed to reciprocal reviewers from other PA authors) who won't review you, with authors who don't regard you as serious players and colleagues - you run up against obstacles. This is the real world; and though you may feel professional to yourselves, this real world does not consider you so, and won't until PA truly revolutionizes its business practices and even changes its name. Highly unlikely.

You claim to be proud to be with PA; very well, then, accept this consequence, this reality: the real world does not see you as published, but printed. Deal with it! You are published authors only in your dream world; go on dreaming, if you will, but don't expect others in the real world to enter that dream with you. Either you wake up and encounter that world on its own terms, or stay in the dream.

Perhaps you are afraid to face that truth. Afraid of your bubble bursting, afraid of waking up from the dream to a world where you are no longer a "published author" but only a beginner. There is the embarassment (especially having to confess to family and friends), the feeling of failure, the feeling of having to start all over again. But you will find a very soft landing; you have friends here who will respect you as fellow writers and help you on your way to publishing success. Believe me: there is life after PA!