Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[azbikergirl]

I work 8-5, M-F and spend my lunch breaks writing. I can pound out at least 500 words in the 45 minutes or so that I'm sitting still. And it's a fun way to spend the time.

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by EGGammon

I have a wide range of ideas and a lot of different genres...

Pick one that excites you, that you'd love to explore, and that has a strong climax.

[E.G. Gammon]

Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald

Standard disclaimer: Unless it's brilliant.

Do you know of any successful first novels that are longer than the "average length?"

[Trapped in amber]

Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell? I'm pretty sure it was a first novel. Though I'm not sure whether or not it was the first novel the author had written.

[Christine N.]

Yep. She had written some short stories prior, but Jonathan Strange was her first novel length.


However, Ms. Clark had been involved with the publishing industry for many years and had tons of contacts. Not that the book isn't brilliant, it certainly is, but she had friends in high places to give her a boost.

[Trapped in amber]

My Other Half reckons Raymond E. Feist's 'The Magician' was a first novel. That's 831 pages in his copy (and there's a longer version).

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by Christine N.

she had friends in high places to give her a boost.

All that having friends in high places will get you is your work read more quickly, and, if it isn't brilliant, a quicker rejection.

[Sonya]

I've completed three novels, the first when I was only 18 years old and still in high school. The manuscript was lost in a move (this was before computers). It was hard for me to write another book, but eventually I did and have now completed two more.

Should I try to edit ( I think both need a major edit) those and send them to an agent or just send them directly to a publisher?

I know agents don't require money up front but what happens if they don't sell your novel? Is the writer then out a ton of money?

Thanks,
Sonya

[katiemac]

I've completed three novels, the first when I was only 18 years old and still in high school. The manuscript was lost in a move (this was before computers).

Ouch, Sonya. I'd be devastated. Speaking of which, I haven't made a back-up copy in awhile... *ba dum dum*

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by Sonya

I know agents don't require money up front but what happens if they don't sell your novel? Is the writer then out a ton of money?

That's why they're so careful in selecting who to rep... and if the book is good, they'll eventually sell it. If the book is crap, they won't touch it with a 100-foot pole.

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by Sonya

Should I try to edit ( I think both need a major edit) those and send them to an agent or just send them directly to a publisher?

If they need a major edit, yes, edit them. Revise and rewrite until you're sure they're the best you can make them.

If I were you, I'd look for an agent first (you can query many at once), though if there's a major publisher that takes books in your genre submitting it there at the same time wouldn't hurt.

I know agents don't require money up front but what happens if they don't sell your novel? Is the writer then out a ton of money?

If they don't sell your novel that's their loss, not yours. That's why they're picky about who they represent.

For more on agents, see here: Everything you wanted to know about literary agents.

You probably also want to read Slushkiller.

[PattiTheWicked]

Originally Posted by EGGammon

Do you know of any successful first novels that are longer than the "average length?"

I think Diana Gabaldon's Outlander was her first novel, and it's pretty good-sized.

[Roger J Carlson]

Originally Posted by Trapped in amber

My Other Half reckons Raymond E. Feist's 'The Magician' was a first novel. That's 831 pages in his copy (and there's a longer version).

Since The Magician was first published in 1982 and since the publishing world has changed a lot since then, I don't think you can generalize from this. In the 1990s, The Magician was split into two books Magician:Apprentice and Magician: Master and this may be a better indicator of current market conditions.

There are threads in other AW forums that warn against taking advice about "breaking in" to the publishing world from people who broke in more than ten years ago. Things are different now.

[lindylou45]

Okay, I did it! Today I submitted my ms to four agents and one publisher! I wanted to rip the packages out of the postman's hands, but I was able to contain myself. Now the long wait ensues. Shades of Myrtle the MS come to mind!

[Galoot]

Originally Posted by lindylou45

Okay, I did it! Today I submitted my ms to four agents and one publisher!

Awesome! So how far are you into your next book?

[lindylou45]

Originally Posted by Galoot

Awesome! So how far are you into your next book?

I've actually got four books written. The first three are a series and the fourth is a totally different one. I'm in the editing process of the last two. I've been trying to convince Uncle Jim that I can stop writing for a while, but he doesn't buy it. I don't know why?

[James D. Macdonald]

Follow the publishers' and agents' guidelines to the letter -- and write your next book.

I can't promise that you will get published. But I can promise that unless you work at your writing ... you won't.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, put the WIP in the drawer, so to speak, and started on the next one today. But, um, I can't think of anything to write. Those first three pages are a PITA, aren't they? I know what the book is about, it's the next in the series for the one I just revised. But where to begin?? This is the first book I've had a problem starting. Bleck.

[zizban]

I sent a query letter for an MS I completed and had edited years ago to Christine N's publisher, so fingers crossed. Meanwhile, the WIP continues at good speed.

[lindylou45]

Originally Posted by zizban

I sent a query letter for an MS I completed and had edited years ago to Christine N's publisher, so fingers crossed. Meanwhile, the WIP continues at good speed.

My fingers are crossed for you! Best of luck.

[alaskamatt17]

I'm still plugging away on my second real novel. The first one is in the mail--I haven't been able to get any agent to request a sample yet.

I'm really hoping I'll get a positive response soon. I've got three short stories out in the mail that I think (and have been told) stand a pretty good chance of publication.

By the way, congrats on sending out your manuscript, lindylou45!

[CaoPaux]

Um, hi! Uncle Jim thought the following might be useful for this thread. I’m sure he’ll point out any errors I commit. And whup me upside the head for overt snarkiness.

This is a message that was posted on the board of an infamous POD publisher. (Can you guess which? I knew you could.) I feel it reflects what far too many newbies become convinced is True by unscrupulous agents and publishers out for their money.

What makes this message doubly sad, is that it was from one of their authors, answering questions by fellow authors that by all rights should be answered by the publisher. But that’s a whole ‘nother topic. My comments are in [brackets].

------
Message:

Okay, so to answer your original questions:

1)Does the publisher give us any training or send us any instructions on marketing? [They shouldn’t. Marketing is a publisher’s job. Why would a publish risk their investment by allowing amateurs to do their marketing? Oh, wait, they don’t have anything invested in you, do they…]

- PA will send you a small looseleaf booklet about the basics in marketing. Now is the time to do your own research. Get some books at the library on marketing. Read the past posts on these forums as far back as you have time for. You will find a huge amount of marketing information right back to summer of 2004 at least. [Actually, to keep you from finding the answers to your questions, they’ve clipped their database so that posts only go back 30 days. So unless you know advanced Googling, good luck.] Use your search engine and find the topics you are looking for with key words. Your marketing begins when the manuscript is sent to PA. [But what you should be doing is starting your next book.]

2) What exactly does the publisher do beside send out our list and press releases? [Upload your ISBN and cover pic to Amazon. Most of the time.]

-That is pretty much it. Just like most other publishers they do not market or even edit much. [*universe screeches to a halt* Folks, just sit and read that a few times. Now think of your last trip to a bookstore. Or WalMart for cripe’s sake. How did all those books get there? Not from the author driving from store to store begging the manager to stock their book. They got there because the Person In Charge of Ordering was visited by a Professional Marketer From The Publisher who, after wining, dining, and/or glad-handing, did grace the Person In Charge with a catalog of current releases and a schedule of discounts and a “if you order this new series we’ll throw in the author’s backlist and this nifty cool standup”, yada, yada, yada. And the Person In Charge orders with confidence, because s/he understands that the publisher has not only a financial investment in their product, but also their reputation riding on the reader liking their books. Which segues into competent editing, cover design, and book construction, but I gotta stop to breathe.]

Most of this is up to you. It is part of being a writer. It has nothing to do with any lacking on PA's part. It is just the way things are in the writing world. You are on your own. [*choke, sputter, gasp* No, you are NOT alone. Even the smallest press, if their interest is selling your book to readers, and not to you, will have a marketing plan/network in place to get your book into stores. You may need and/or be asked to assist with promotion, but that’s an entirely different animal. Homework: research the difference. Hint: An endcap display is marketing. A book tour is promotion.]

PA will send out 100 notices to contacts. If you have them send you one too, you can photo copy it and send it to anyone else on that list. PA provides a free postcard which you can use to help announce your book to anyone you know with an email address. [Spamming will result in as many sales as including your flyer with your check to the water company. (And, yes, stuffing return envelopes is considered a valid Marketing Tool by PA.)]

PA will send newspaper press releases to your local newspaper outlets. You must provide them with the contact information. Be as detailed as possible. If possible, give them a contact name as well. [And yet, when the author calls to follow up, the newspaper rarely remembers them. So much for impact.] If you have multiple newspapers in town, list them all to PA. Follow up with an email or a phone call at the newspaper office. [Editors just love calls like this. /sarcasm] You may want to consider sending in your own Press Release. [Risk: it may reveal more than you intend about the quality of your book.] Just because the paper gets a release does not mean they will use it. There is lots of competition for print space. [Yes and no. Editors have finite amount of space to work with, but they keep a file of interesting stuff to stick into a page to balance it out. And the key word is …?]

3) Exactly how do they sell our books? [They don’t. If it’s POD, you do.]

-PA has contracts with Ingram and Baker & Taylor. These are 2 of the largest bookstore and library book distributors. Most bookstores order from them. [But they can’t order your book because they don’t know about it because they don’t receive a catalog from PA.] PA also accepts and encourages direct orders from individuals and retailers by offering higher discounts. [Um, yes, they offer a $3 “discount” if one orders from their webpage. But guess how much S&H is.] For instance, Ingram's discount is 20% off to retailers whereas PA's begins at 40% and escellates with an increased number of books ordered. [But PA authors don’t get royalties on the books they buy themselves, and the royalties they DO get are paid on net. Which means that the bigger the discount, the less royalties they receive. *head hurt*]

3) Or do we have to sell all of them ourselves? [After all, they tell you that your book is available in all major bookstores. But I guess it depends on what the definition of “is” is.]

- Authors have multiple methods of getting books sold. Some resort to selling the books themselves. I do not agree with this particular method. [Halleluiah!] I am a writer, not a store. I do not have capital, nor am I willing to pay for shipping twice (once to get the order from PA and again to send to customer). If you try to sell books, you will need to keep track of taxes, charge shipping and handling, have packaging material on hand and be glued to your office - rather than writing. [Not to mention get a business and/or retail license in most states/localities.]

Your discount at PA begins at only 20%. And authors do not receive royalties on books they personally purchase. So your profit is reduced. As well, you have to keep tight records of which retailer has your book on commision, how many copies they have and so on. [Now, why would an author need to place books on commission? If their “publisher” doesn’t offer a return policy, which is Death to getting 99% of stores to put it on the shelf.] Personally, I do not go this route. Market like crazy, promote like mad and pester retailers. You'll get in the stores if you keep working hard. [Tried and true! One PA author got her local Borders to stock her book on their own dime! One author. Out of thousands. One store. Out of tens of thousands. You may weep now.]

4)One of my most difficult challenges will be visiting my target audience where the setting of my book is. The book is a biography of a man back in Texas. Does anybody have any suggestions that make my marketing any easier?

- The internet is your greatest marketing tool. You don't have to come from Texas or anywhere else to find a book worthy of reading... Better start hitting the Net and get your marketing plan designed... [A Professional Marketer would first get your book into local chain stores. Then they would ferret out the local historical societies, museums, etc., and send them 8 x 10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one expounding how your book would just be perfect for their gift shop….]

------

So what does my rant boil down to? A thick sludge that I hope you will smear upon your forehead in the shape of a dollar sign, to remind you every time you look in the mirror that the only way you are going to see any profit from your sweat and ink is to write your next book while your publisher sells your current one.

Thank you for your time. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[Jason M. Dyess]

Okay, I have a question. At some point in the past, I began a novel. I wrote around six chapters, made the mistake of reading back over it and cut the first three chapters, then worked them back in in the the new fourth and fifth chapters. the onlything in all of that that matters, is that I came to a standstill, and took a break from writing (actually, I took a break from almost everything) and now I want to start writing it again. My question is, what should I do? Start over at the beginning, pick up where I left off (in the middle of a chapter)? or delete my last chapter and start from there?

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by Jason M. Dyess

My question is, what should I do? Start over at the beginning, pick up where I left off (in the middle of a chapter)? or delete my last chapter and start from there?

This will depend entirely on your temperament.

I would suggest starting fresh with a whole new novel (new plot, new characters) or resuming at the start of the next chapter in the current work.

[astonwest]

Does anyone else go through this process (which I just started doing for the first time recently)? I began writing my newest novel from the beginning, but then got to a point in the novel (mid-book...oops) where it just wasn't going anywhere. I couldn't even get words down, no matter how much I sat and stared at the computer or paper.
So, I went ahead and wrote up a scene from later in the book. I've done this for four other scenes later in the book now, and am slowly closing up the gaps between them...it's felt good to actually have some production...