Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[James D. Macdonald]

Way back on page 3 of this thread, I recommended some books that y'all should have in your offices or on your desks. I included handy links so you could buy 'em if you didn't already have 'em.

Please, folks, go get 'em.

[euclid]

I have the New Oxford English Dictionary. Do I need Miriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary as well?

Is The Chicago Manual of Style relevant if I'm writing primarily for the UK market?

[SilverPhoenix]

I don't think which dictionary you use matters so much. I have tons of them.
What one I grab doesn't make a difference.

I like to use online ones sometimes tho, because it's so much faster (and yes there are some decent ones available for free).

The Chicago Manual of Style is very good and will still be mostly relevant to you
It's pretty highly recommended for everyone, US or UK.

[smsarber]

A friend recently told me "Spunk and Bite" is a good tool to have, as well. That it fills in where "Elements of Style" leaves off. Remember, "EoS" was written like 80 years ago. I must get these books or I will never become a Published Author! Oh, wait, that wasn't what you meant, was it? But really, I need to get these. I know they'll help, especially to a drop-out like me.

[Calliopenjo]

Creative spaces where writer's write.

Side note: My home office looks barren now.

[Marcus]

OK, so going over Allen Guthrie's infomous writing mistakes.. #11 is Avoid sounding 'writerly'

Forgive me for asking this. I've actually had someone comment that at moments in my work my narration crept into this category. I'm still learning here, and trying to pick this up as fast as possible. Many of my questions I was able to avoid by using the Search function, but with this, I feel like I really need help.

Is there a link with examples of this kind of thing? Is there a way to know when this happens, or is this kind of thing purely subjective in substance? I certainly don't want to have people post up grips of examples; I'm sure the subject has been discussed at some point before. Any help on the specific subject would be great. I'd even settle for a link to a book with the answer I'm looking for. I've already Favorited half a dozen books I'm going to order on the 1st...

as always, thanks for your time.

[James D. Macdonald]

The "Hey, Look, Ma, I'm Writing!" style of writing?

I think Guthrie is warning against over-writing. What Mark Twain meant when he said "Eschew obfuscation."

Here's the full text of Guthrie's #11:

11: Avoid sounding ‘writerly’. Better to dirty up your prose. When you sound like a writer, your voice has crept in and authorial intrusion is always unwelcome. In the best writing, the author is invisible.

But I tell you true: What's really going to hurt is if you change levels or styles within your work. The contrast will make one or another section seem grotesque.

The full of Guthrie's advice.

Take what you need. Leave the rest.

[Marcus]

Let me take a moment of your time and say thank you for all you do here.

Your advice on changing within my own work is a great voice of caution. I've read the list a couple times now and that #11 is the one that just isn't that substantitive to me. I understand what it is saying intrinsically, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it firmly.

Again thank you for all the time you spend here giving advice to the rest of us here that couldn't pay you enough for your efforts!

I'm going to let the forum cool down for a little while and get back to revising my existing work. Once I'm done with that, I'm going to school up on rules of outlining. I found that when I made my outline, even a rough one, the work was about ten times easier to accomplish. I'm now of the opinion that an outline should be 80% of the 20-80 rule.

[James D. Macdonald]

You're quite welcome.

Since we're handing around lists of Writers' Advice, here's a great list from John Scalzi.

[Marcus]

OH OH another reason to use the printer.. By the time I know this website inside and out I'm going to have a Manuscript of pure knowledge.

I meet someone that wants to write, I plop a pile of papers in their lap and say, "memorize this!"

I even contacted one of my old high school teachers last night to get her to see if she could magic me up a teachers edition English book for me for free. It will be much different studying English with the purpose of actually learning it as opposed to just surviving the class. Plus I've been out of school for over ten years so I have nothing to lose and a Lot to gain.

[Prozyan]

Originally Posted by Marcus

I've read the list a couple times now and that #11 is the one that just isn't that substantitive to me. I understand what it is saying intrinsically, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it firmly.

Lemme take a stab at this.

Your job, as the writer, is to give to the reader important information about your story in the most efficient (and hopefully entertaining) way possible. For example, in my story I have a kitchen with yellow dining chairs. The chairs serve no real purpose in the story and the color of the chairs isn't important outside of scene setting, and my MC (main character) has no special relation to the chairs. In short, they are nothing more than scenery.

The most efficient way for me to write about the chairs would be: The dining room chairs are yellow.

Simple, clear and to the point. I'm sure, right now, you have an image in your head of a yellow chair. Mission accomplished. Are these highback chairs, cushioned chairs, or plain chairs? In my mind, the detail is plain, but in your mind, the chairs might be something else. That doesn't matter, the only specific detail I wish to impart is the chairs are yellow.

Now, let's take the same situation and break Guthrie's rule #11:

The dining room chairs were the color of molten gold, faintly reflecting the light in their simple, clean elegance. Sometimes the light would shift and the chairs would take on the hue of amber. Especially at sunset, the chairs seemed to grow older and more dignified, as if growing wiser with the setting of the sun.

See, here I've just spouted off a lot of random words that serve no purpose to the story. Its unnecessary exposition and kills the writing. Its an attempt to "sound writerly" by overcompensating.

Around a year ago, there was a member that remarked novels were nothing but 90% fluff. It is this attitude that leads to overwriting: the idea that everything in a novel or story must have some deep description or detail.

Uncle Jim gave the Mark Twain quote (I think Twain actually said "Eschew surplusage", but its essentially the same thing): "Eschew obfuscation". Why say "Eschew obfuscation" when "Be clear" works just as well, reads better, and is most likely more easily understood by the masses?

TLDR version: Don't try to show off your vocabulary or mad writerz skillz. Just write so people understand what you want them to understand.

[James D. Macdonald]

Unfortunately, the writer is always a character. Even an "invisible" writer is an invisible character.

[euclid]

Jim, is that a reference to you in Guthrie's #31?

ETA: Researching Crime Noir, I found John D. MacDonald. Apologies for the daft question!

Number 2 is a puzzle.
Number 23 was a revelation. (no sentences in dialogue)
Number 29 is a major problem for me. (grinning, smiling, shrugging)

[euclid]

Prozyan: Why mention the chairs at all? And if you have to for some reason, why mention the colour?

[euclid]

Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald

Unfortunately, the writer is always a character. Even an "invisible" writer is an invisible character.

Could you detect the writer in my "Short Back and Sides"?

[Prozyan]

Originally Posted by euclid

Prozyan: Why mention the chairs at all? And if you have to for some reason, why mention the colour?

Random example to use for Guthrie's #11 and just something off the top of my head. Nothing more, nothing less. I read again my posting and see where I say "my story". Didn't mean to imply this was from an actual story, just making an example.

I could have used a person's eyeglasses, freckles, hair color, or any mundane item that, as you say, could be not mentioned at all, but is not only mentioned, but overwritten to a horrible extent.

[euclid]

Right. No offence meant.

[Prozyan]

Originally Posted by euclid

Right. No offence meant.

None taken at all.

[euclid]

Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald

You're quite welcome.

Since we're handing around lists of Writers' Advice, here's a great list from John Scalzi.

That was wonderful. Very astute, very helpful; uplifting, even. I seem to remember hearing of someone who writes on a laptop in a coffee shop and reads his own stuff aloud...

I have a relative (by marriage) who is a megasuccessful writer of children's books. I have been toying with the idea of arranging to get introduced to him and asking him to recommend my novel to his agent. What do you think? I was saving it for when I run out of agents' names to sub under my own steam. I know he's very busy at the moment.

[Judg]

I don't quite get "sounding writerly" either. I thought we were supposed to let our own voice shine through.

I do know what I have to look out for in my own writing. Sometimes it comes across schoolmarmish and stuffy. I don't notice it while I'm actually writing, but when I reread later on, even I find it unpleasant. Maybe it's like looking at a photograph of yourself; you see things that you don't see in a mirror.

Scientifically, this is how I deal with it: any passage that makes me go blech has to be rewritten. I ask myself what I was trying to say, whether it needs to be said, and then I try to say that thing as clearly and directly as possible.

The amount of description is a matter of cultural and personal taste. Most romance novels drive me nuts for this reason (and others) but obviously there is a huge market that disagrees with me. In general our culture at this point in time prefers description to be on the lean side. I have read novels where there is a lot of description and I've enjoyed it, because it came in short, vivid doses. Instead of overwhelming me, it pulled me into the scene by making me participate with my senses.

[euclid]

Hey Judg, I think consistency is the key. But what would I know?

[smsarber]

Originally Posted by Judg

I don't quite get "sounding writerly" either. I thought we were supposed to let our own voice shine through.

And if your voice is true, it will (can I be more vague and mysterious?)

But what you said about schoolmarmish, I get. I will repeat something Uncle Jim (though I think it came from elsewhere) has said: Using five-dollar words when a nickel word will do. I am very guilty of it. I think I use it to show people "Hey, I dropped out of of school... but I still have an IQ over 130. So ha!" Okay, I'm kidding a bit, but it's still true. I use big, sometimes obscure words in my daily speak. But I'm learning in my work to pick the 'write' word: What fits best in the prose. Which is what I most believe Guthrie means. For Tom Clancy, big, obscure words are the way to go. Big, obscure, tech jargon I don't understand. Which is why I haven't been able to finish a Clancy novel. But it works with his readers. Of course, if he had three paragraphs of tech talk, then one written in 'nickel-words' I'd wonder if he had a small stroke while writing.

So, Kiddies, keep your voice, keep it consistent, LOVE what you write. But make sure it fits the prose.

[James D. Macdonald]

Style is what you can't help doing.

So, if you sound schoolmarmish, and can't help it, pick stories where that's a plus.

(As far as Tom Clancy: Many years ago, when I was with Uncle Sam, here's how I was introduced to his novels. I walked into the wardroom, where one of my brother officers was reading Hunt for Red October, and my comrade looked up and said, "Hey, Mac! Someone told this guy that LORAN-Charlie works!")

[smsarber]

So I guess LORAN-Charlie doesn't

One more thing, for me, the novel is that last place I need to showcase my smartitude. I mean, when's the last time you read a review of a Stephen King book that said, "He sounds intelligient" or "This writer graduated high school?"

[errantruth]

Originally Posted by smsarber

when's the last time you read a review of a Stephen King book that said, "He sounds intelligient" or "This writer graduated high school?"

Too true. Love it. *wipes tears from eyes*