Has anyone done a series-trilogy...etc.

I'm just wondering what types of problems you found?

One of the problems I've run into is the "Better Ideas" problem. I finished off the entire story, with the intention of editing and being done with it. There was no way to condense this into one book.

After a rather complete draft, I had to go through each book and edit each story.

One of the primary problems in doing such a massive story is that you can't make a simple edit. My creative mind doesn't shut down, and slip into grammar-mode. So, if I see a better way to say something, and edit something, you now have this laborious task of going through three books, not one, and long books at that, to change each, which causes a domino effect! If you take someone who is wealthy and make them poor, you have to make it work throughout the whole story.

This may sound absurd, but I ran into this. I had characters who were poor, but I wanted to give a key player a hand maiden, and therefore wrote her in. Obviously "Poor" doesn't work anymore. So, I had to go back and change other parts of the story.

Primarily this is because I love the "Let the story write itself" approach, rather than "Maps out the whole story approach".

Even while I was writing what was a "Trilogy" which takes place in the same relative age, there was a "History" or back story, taking place in an earlier age.

I had more than enough information to write a Metaphorical "Silmarillion"- in relation to LOTR". This is because I worked on several computers, one at work, and one at home. For a variety of reasons, I couldn't download from one to the other, and instead of doing nothing, I decided to work on the "Back Story" on one computer, while the trilogy on the other. Low and behold, I magnified the problem. I now had to reconcile more information.

Primary lesson is "Do one thing at a time." But now that I'm in this mess, I realize how absolutely crazy it was to do a project rather than one large story.

People are like, "Hmmm? If this was legit, wouldn't he be done by now? He's been talking like he was close to publishing, and now he's making major edits?"

And they are probably thinking, "Poor deluded idiot. Thinks he can write. He's probably like that professor in "A Brilliant Mind" working in a garage filled with strings and loose papers flying around!"

Actually I was thinking that this post is in keeping with an observation I've made in regard to your other posts. You enjoy debate and conflict.

You should stick with your gut. The biggest problem I have in "fixing" things is that it often causes so many problems in the workaround that it hurts the core story. You have THREE books here and you are adding content?

I often write a story, with the follow-up in mind. It is a HORRIBLE affliction. Why? Well you are always rushing through the first story to get to the next. You almost get bored with writing things that you know the outcomes of. When we write we have a basic idea of where we are going, stick to the map unless THERE IS A HELL OF A SIGHT TO BE SEEN on a turnoff. Your hand maiden should have a tragic accident that takes her completely off the page.

Just my two cents... good luck!

You enjoy debate and conflict.

You caused a moment of introspection with your statement. I wouldn't doubt I appear that way outwardly, but I'm not so sure the conclusion is consistent with what I feel inwardly. I hate conflict (emotionally), and will walk away when I sense something is confrontational, and yet, have this tremendous desire to be understood, and enter into fellowship with others.

I was probably an irritating kid growing up, in that I always wanted to know "Why?"

On one end, that means poking and prodding, and never simply accepting things on face value. Irritating as that may be, there's a general hunger to understand things. Others may percieve it as intrusive.

On the other hand, over time, after dissecting things, you tend to think you know things, and instead of engaging in apologetics, you say things with a certain sense of conviction. The end product sounds a little like an irritating know it all.

"Deep calls unto Deep" -Solomon

I enjoy deep thinkers, and I'm thirsty for those who love deep conversation. And because of that, I have this propensity to try to draw people out.

I appreciate your obvervations, in that you seem to think Concisely. I don't intention to be scattered.

I see Tolkien as a scattered person. (no, I don't think I'm a Tolkien) It took him ten years to write LOTR, and even so, he needed a hounding publisher, and friends like C.S Lewis to constantly light a fire under him. Lewis offered much moral support, and pushed him. If you read his letters, you can see that at times he felt like giving up altogether, getting in way over his head. Sans the unique literary talent, that's how I feel at times. And not that the story isn't good, but that finishing it is emotionally draining.

But look at the Silmarillion, he spent a lifetime working on it, and it wasn't published until his loyal son put it together. I'd certainly hate to reprise that situation.

Still, I do believe some things happen for a reason. And I'm hoping it all works out for the good.

Nate:

I've been working on my "Code of Honor" trilogy on and off for about 3 or 4 years now. There are three planned books: "First Duty", "Broken Loyalty" and "Final Courage". I ran into some trouble while I was writing them, but I do enjoy working on them.

I had my original plot outline, but it wasn't working the way it was written. I was pulling my hair out. Finally, I realized that the "real" story was about events that happened thirty years PRIOR to the events in that draft. So I threw that draft out and started on a new one. I listened to my gut, and it turned out much better.

Of course, that meant I had to change stuff throughout the trilogy, but luckily, both BL and FC were still in planning, and I was able to make changes. One thing about a trilogy is that I had to make sure the dates match, the settings were consistent, etc. They say "God is in the details." They weren't kidding. A reader can pick up an inconsistency from one book to the next in a series.

right now I'm working on a redraft of "First Duty", and I'm trying to stick to revising one book at a time, instead of doing all three at once. If I change something, I make a note for the other two books. but if I tried to do all three books at once, I'd be in a muddled mess. Who was married to whom? What the heck happened when...? You get the picture.

There will come a time when it's time to quit making changes and let things be...otherwise your book(s) will never make it out the door.

Sheesh, can I relate!!!

I started with a simple vampiric tale that has escalated into a multi-generational epic of monstrous portions. I feel that the storyline is solid, and if I ever get it published, I think it would be successful. But its positively overwhelming at times.

However, every time I contemplate downsizing the storyline or only focusing on the 'first' novel part of the storyline...I can't. Seems this story is dying for me to tell it. So I keep plugging away.

So, I can relate to what you are going through Nate. But don't stop. Even if it takes a while to finish, you'll be glad you stuck with it in the end.

Anyway, I've been a lurker here for months. Just wanted to say hi to everyone, and a BIG thanks to all the info on this site. I learn something new every time I stop by!

Hey Mitch! Glad to have you on board.

By the way, thanks for the encouragement. I also hope you find your way through the mud and the muck, and rejoice to see your book sitting on a shelf at Barnes and Nobles.

Perhaps some day we'll meet at a writer's convention and laugh about these days of dread.

I've written stories before, and completed them. Most are outdated, or perhaps I'd brush them off and try to publish them. So, it isn't that I have this disease of mind where I can't finish things off.

If I explain the convoluted story behind how this became a Grand Fantasy, you might laugh, because in the beginning it wasn't that Grand.

However, once I had the story written, I just saw what I call incidental inspiration, those moments in life when you accidentally do something and look back afterwords simply knowing it was meant to be. But this is not like writing a book, it's like being in a prolonged hard labor (I'll ask the women here to excuse my using this metaphor-but my wife always had hideously difficult pregnancies) and you just can't wait for this thing to finally pop out and to be done being with book.

The subject of trilogies has come up a time or two since I've been around. The usual advice (and I think it's good advice) is to make sure each book can stand on it's own. Publishers, from what I hear, don't normally sign a new author for a trilogy deal.

The first book has to stand alone well enough that you can get it published, and only then do you worry about the other two, because if the first one doesn't fly, the other two are useless. (or maybe you can publish the second one first, and the first as a 'prequel' but either way, things get complicated.)

---

I would say, if you're having new inspirations for how to make the stories better, you should follow them. I know this same kind of thing is taking the writing my single book into it's second year. :eek

But I would strongly suggest you focus your effort on the first book and don't even worry about the other two until the first is complete, and ready to submit to agents. Don't worry about how your changes are going to affect the second two books. Just tell youself you'll cross those bridges when you come to them.

I know that's not easy to do, but three whole novels at once is an enormous task, even if you think you had the darn things nearly perfect.

Don't worry about what other people think, about how long it's taking. Rome wasn't built in a day, and when you're talking about an epic trilogy, the comparisson is valid!


---

Still, I sympathise. My current WIP began as a one-off novel, but after working on it for many months, my brain has come up with most of the plot for a great sequel, and the tender sprouts of a third book, which would make it a trilogy.

I'm already working in foreshadowing toward the other two books in the current WIP. It's making it a better story, but still, the hard struggle is to stay focused on just the one novel.

This may sound like a cop out. But if I don't get published, I'm most likely not going to bother self publishing. I'll just put it on the Internet, and create a free site and let people read it.

When push comes to shove, I'm sure that people will read it.

Yeah, then I'd just be a footnote, and not really an author. But the bottom line is that I wrote this to be read.

One of the reasons I started working on the "Prequel" was because I figured I might as well just release the first book as a stand alone book, and then release the trilogy after. Unfortunately that may be the way to go.

I plan to submit the related short story within the month. If that finds a home, then great. If not, perhaps I'll just add it to the prequel.

Nate,

I've written four novels in a series (paranormal fantasy thriller is the only way I can describe it), two more planned and maybe a third--won't know until I get there. I have two novels of another series (thriller) written, the second one of this series a branch into a third series (paranormal thriller), but these two series themselves were unplanned. I love them though, all of them.

I wrote each book as a stand alone. Only the first series did I plan to be a series (and that not until after I'd written the first book), but I've always approached each novel as if it were a single story. I've always mixed things up, too, writing different stories in between novels of my first series so as not to hem myself in with one set of characters. That's how I ended up with these two other series.

The difficulty I ran into is that between writing the first book of my first series (my second ever whole novel) and my eleventh novel which is my current work in progress and not related to any series, I sort of grew up as a writer, found my voice as it were. Now, I've rewritten that first book, not revised, but rewrote the whole thing, emphasizing the threads I see running through the series as a whole, taking advantage of the history I know now but didn't know then. I will also have to rewrite the sequel since the story's very good but the writing's just not up to par with the rest of my work. But these are the hardest two rewrites--the rest all benefit from having written them in that I found my voice.

And Nate, you are an author, whether you publish or not. My bottom line question to myself has always been--if I never get these novels published will I quit writing? And the answer is...:smokin

Mari

Nate, you don't have to apologize around here for any of your traits. I run across you a lot around the boards and I'm always surprised to see you starting something up. Notice I didn't say, "stirring something up."

It looks like you have an inexhaustible supply of topics and questions tumbling out of your head, and I'm always intrigued to find some new dilemma you've cooked up. If anything, you get the boards hopping, motivating responses, and cheer leading the discussions. You're like chasing a mosquito in a nudist colony, nobody knows where you're going to land next. I wish I had that kind of energy. I think one day you'll be a moderator around here somewhere. Information exchange is what this place is all about. Maybe one day the archives of Absolute Write will be a valuable commodity.

Just thought to tell you you have a pal

Tri

It was like waking up with quintuplets, completely unplaned

And Nate, you are an author, whether you publish or not. My bottom line question to myself has always been--if I never get these novels published will I quit writing?

And I'm impressed that you have done so much. That's great.

As far as me being an "author"; I see myself as a writer. I guess, in my mind being unpublished makes me sort of a an author wannabe. Even if 300,000 people read my story. If I'm unpublished, I won't feel like a flop, but will feel like I'm not a legit author. It's a semantics thing for me.

I'll be honest with you. I didn't plan on writing a trilogy.

Years before, I wrote a serious allegorical story. It was a rather deep story. I finished it off and shelved it, having never edited it.

Fast forward. Since I had the story on M-Word, I toyed with taking it and reworking it as an entertaining story for my friends. I made it more whimsical, and wrote it as a series, rather than a single story.

I'd say I had maybe fifty or sixty people reading it, and started getting feedback from the readers, "You should publish this...this is very good..."

Their words were a seed that grew. Here's where things took off. I had a complicated story already written. However, in order to make it a real novel, I had to do a hard edit on it.

I began to flesh out the characters more, adding detail to the world. In so doing, I realize that the story was already way too long for a single book after it was already written.

So, I didn't sit down and say, "I'm going to write a Trilogy." I just woke up one day and already had one.

The hard part wasn't writing it. Honestly, I had a blast with it. I had an audience that loved it. The problem was in containing it. When I went through fleshing it out to publish it, I had no idea how long it was going to be. And that process of making it a consistant story with meat on the bones, doubled its size.

No word of lie, when I did the word count after finishing book one, I almost freaked. I had 170,000 words. It was by far the longest of the three books. However, I realize I already had an impossible situation on my hands. It might seem amusing to some, but it was suddenly overwhelming, like waking up and having four infants dropped in my lap, all needing attention.

So, now I'm taking it slow. I'm thinking "Series" instead of trilogy. But I'm realistic, in that I know that I have to cut book one in half, and/or prune the snot out of it. And rather than getting bent out of shape; I'm taking it one book at a time.

I realize that book one has to have a great opening, and great finish. I already changed it with that in mind. It has to stand alone, and come in around 80,000 words. So, that's my goal, and I'm realistically hoping to get it done by early to mid summer. "Hoping" being the key word.

triceretops

I loved your analogy.

If you saw what I actually have on my plate, you'd think I was nuts.

I actually add 1 1/2 hours to my work day so that I can work on my story there. It helps me to focus better. Add my lunch break, and I have 2 hours of dedicated writing.

But I'm also involved in some very important things outside of work. That was why I questioned whether I should invest time in this story.

I'm presently working not only on a "trilogy" (why that seems to be the thing, I don't know) but an entire series of mystery novels.

I just finished the 2nd and will mail it to my agent tomorrow. The 1st is already there, and she's shopping it now to publishers.

I will soon begin the 3rd of the series, and I have about 20k words finished on that one. I hope to finish it in fall 2005.

So keeping a long series of plot interconnections and characters is quite a chore. And I know this.

Your problem may be that you've tried to tell too much of a story from the beginning, or to keep it all juggling at the same time.

I recommend that you focus on one element of your overall series first, keep onto that, narrow the scope, and tell only a portion of the story. Save some for the next novel, in other words.

Mapping out an entire trilogy is a mammoth job and it's well beyond the capacity of most of us. So do it a slice at a time.

i'm wrestling with a four-book story right now (which i'll probably have to trim to a trilogy), so i'm suffering through a lot of headaches that i'm not normally having to put up with. for instance, my naturaly inclination is to let the story write itself, but that's not very realistic here, so i've reduced myself to using outlines. i've even started fleshing out, ugh, themes, knowing that just trying to be entertaining here isn't going to cut it.

i have the same problems you did/are having, nate. i have an original concept that i might even have begun the scene to, then later something else comes into play for some reason which sends what i already wrote instantly into the rework pile. so, my advice to anyone giving a trilogy a shot (not a series) is to outline as much as possible and work out a lot of story glitches that way. i doubt most people can wield half a million words without a framework and hope to achieve anything more than a bunch of dead trees with scribbles. even for people who've knocked off a few novels already, three books isn't easy to just bang out.

one thing that's helping is the idea that i'm not necessarily writing three books as much as just a really long story, paying attention to where one 'act' ends and the next begins. i'm considering each book an 'act' just as a way to stave off the feeling of being overwhelmed.

another problem i'm having is scene placement. having a scene done is great, but then there's where to place it. at first, i absolutely knew how the first book was to end, but now i've made that the end of the second book, which jumbles everything around. not being one to use outlines, i'm unsure of how long the outline should be to be a good, full book, and i'd hate to write the thing and be woefully short of my plan. for me, the scope of the thing negates the story maturing organically, and i'll be hella glad to get back to how i enjoy writing, all willy-nilly. ponderous structure stifles what middling creativity i've got.

and you know what? yeah, at first i was concerned with being an unknown writer (yes, i'm a writer, too, not an author. i hate it when people say, 'i'm an author.' i don't care if you're published or not, it's just a pompous way to describe yourself, like referring to one's trivial collection of banalities, cliches, rip-offs they call 'homages' and genericism as 'my work,' as if angels are hand-carving it into marble and setting it outside the pearly gates for all to see. sorry about that rant... what the hell was i talking about? oh, yeah...) and trying to pawn off a trilogy as a first-time effort. then a lot of people say, 'it should be a stand-alone book.' well, then it's not a trilogy, is it? it's one book plus a duology. that's closer to a series. as far as i'm concerned, they could publish the whole thing in one massive book. it's true, i'm taking my chances doing it, but who's to blame if i'm rejected? the editor, who probably more likely to publish a good book than not? the agent? or me?

i hate it when people say, 'you can't do it like that.' why not? watch me. i'm rather stubborn-- i feel if it doesn't go anywhere it's not so much that i'm unknown as it's not good enough. the challenge is to write such a good set of books that some editor will be like, 'i hate to take a chance on an unknown like this, but damn if this ain't a good book, and if i don't pick-up on it maybe someone else will.' if that doesn't happen, oh, well, i'll write a few more books *then* sell the trilogy, and if no editor ever buys anything i write, i might as well have written a decalogy for all it will have mattered. so, my plan is to write the books i want to write the way i want to write them (i'd change 'em for an editor, obviously) and see what happens. ultimately i don't think i'd have wasted any effort, and what a great thing it is to even go against the nay-sayers let alone do what they say can't be done. people who don't take chances just plain suck in my opinion. my advice is don't take any advice that's going to ruin your story by parcing it into sections. i don't even see how it's possible to turn a trilogy into stand-alone books and the writer have the nerve to call it anything less than a mere series. if it's a trilogy, gawddamnit, make it a trilogy.

five book

Hiya,

I keep getting advice to stop working on the later novels of my series until my agent can sell the first one. I'm halfway through the second one. They're saying that I should write one of the other projects I've started. But I had to pick one project to work on and I chose the sequel. It is easier for me and I enjoy writing on it.

there are going to be 5 books in this series, not counting the prequel (which I'll write after the others).



David

I hope I didn't come off as critical when I said I thought you "like" debate and conflict. All I was saying, with my usual blind candor was that you should be aware of yourself and it might assist you in contending with some of the second guessing you have where it concerns your work.

I think you've gotten a lot of great advice through this thread but in the end, writing is all about us (the authors). We're going to do it our way when you get to the nitty gritty (well at least up to the point where either money or an editor corrupts us *snickers*). If you know how you yourself think, it tends to make these machinations over the work much less painful.

Peace

Don't worry Takvah, I didn't take it personally, but I did ponder it because it was worth considering.

Perhaps this was completely unique in that I didn't begin the novel with me in mind.

Without getting specific, I had a venue to write a series of topical articles on serious issues that were important to people. And it gave me the opportunity to also speak to fairly large audiences for a time.

Fiction had been a hobby for me. However, one day I bridged the two by writing a very serious allegory. And it had tremendous impact. People read it, got it, and said it changed their lives.

Then in the 1990s I decided to go a step further, and wrote a very deep allegory, which I think I finished around 1995. However, it grew and grew to the point where it was far too large for the target audience I wrote it for, and far too deep as well. But again, it was origionally written to be a teaching tool, rather than shear entertainment.

When I pulled it out of mothballs, it was for convenience sakes. I was in the mood to write a story for a bunch of friends, and built a story around the allegory. It was serendipity. I didn't plan to do this, but in the end I had one long story. It wasn't a trilogy, but long enough to be a three book set. I already had the whole entire story when I decided I might as well publish it.

Well, the decision to publish was the actual problem, not writing the story. To publish, I had to add shades and hues. You needed to look into the eyes and know what color they were.

But here's the balancing act. I decided to make it a stand alone story, completely entertaining. Everyone can read it like they'd read LOTR. But in various places the story is also very deep. Yet, only those who are looking for "Deep" would be aware of that unless it was pointed out.

One of the proof readers, a professional counselor, Tolkien lover, who proofread her husbands writings (a professional writer) actually wrote "wows" and "awesome" in the margins.

I told her how daunting this whole thing had become, and she said, "Don't you dare give up on this...this is too important...you have a gift...promise that you'll stay with it until it is published."

All of that and 50 cents will get me a newspaper, but the point was that initially, the core of the story was meant to be a gift to the reader, strange as that may sound, in that it was something I origionally meant to distribute for free to an audience that would benefit from what was written.

On a personal note, I can relate a bad experience with my last agent. She loved a book called Cave Island of mine and started sending it out. She told me she had high hopes for it.
Without being told I decided to back it up with a sequel, just in case those high hopes panned out. After a year, and 11 submissions she cooled on the manuscript, and there I was stuck with a completed sequel, that I knew she couldn't/wouldn't be interested in.

Lesson--For the sake of all that is good and decent, at least make sure you land your first fish before you put any more on the line. Don't project, in your mind, what a big fabulous trilogy will do for you. Rather, make that first presentation outstanding. Pour all your energies and craftsmanship into numero uno.

Just from experience

Tri

I appreciate the advice. And I do believe it. In fact, at one time I planned to do that, and actually had the books written. But for a number of complex reasons, never submitted one of them. And after that, the dream of being an author died. I had no desire to write another work of fiction, and add it to the boneyard in my closet.

Many years latter, I was writting, but not novels. I never had the grandious idea that I would ever publish this present story into a novel.

I wrote it because I felt there was a message in it worth saying, and then secondly, expanded it, for my friends to enjoy.

It was when people told me to publish it, and I realized that in having a published novel, more people would have access to it, that I decided to take the story and make it publishable.

Years ago, I wrote two Sci Fi- murder mysteries. One medical murder mysteries. Several fantasies. I wrote one children's story. I wrote a number of mythical Aurthor-like series, incorporating friends at work as the characters. Three of them I wrote, seriously wanting to edit them and have them published.

You might ask, "Why didn't you try to get any of those published?" Three of them were written "Pre Word Processor", by hand. Several were cutting edge in their time. I had this "I'll pay someone to type them out some day" mentality. But due to a variety of finacial setbacks, it never got done. Low and behold, by the time I had the money, the stories were outdated. One was about a heartless Physician, who also had a PH.d in biochem who wanted to create a super virus, which he would then patent a cure for.

He wormed his way into a hospital E.R, and he experimented on live people by injecting his virus into homeless people who had no families, who came there for treatment of a variety of ailments. Unfortunately, he used the wrong syringe on the young son of a Newspaper reporter, infecting him. And now his son was dying, having a disease which was not responding to anything. Not even the malicious doctor was aware that he had infected the kid. One of the nurses took the wrong syringe. And thus began the frantic father's search for answers, to find out if anyone else has been treated for a similar malady...etc.

It was cutting edge at the time, but fastforward a number of years since the Aids Epidemic, and countless Mystery Virus novels and movies were written, I missed the window.

Seeing my ideas were good was more discouraging than encouraging, because I saw three movies that were almost verbatum stories that I had written.

I didn't know how to type way back when I first thought of publishing a work of fiction. In the meantime, the computer age hit, and my job went online, and they forced me to learn to type. I'm glad they did.

So back to the issue; I now have this new story. I didn't intend to create this monster, but it is now breathing on its own. It can only be unmade in the fires of Mt Doom.

I once asked if I should table this "series", and simply try to get something else published, just to get a name; and then come back to this. Having no ephiphonies that I should either scrap it or do otherwise, I'm trying to make book one into a stand alone novel. It's more work, irritating, but hopefully worth it.

Without getting specific, I had a venue to write a series of topical articles on serious issues that were important to people. And it gave me the opportunity to also speak to fairly large audiences for a time.

Click to expand...

Nate, you've lead quite a life. Regardless of how the trilogy goes, I'm really looking forward to the memoirs.

Nate, you sound like an incredible idea man, and that's exactly what it takes to bring a new or rehashed concept to the literary table. Books are ideas, concepts, illusions, and sometimes dreams that speak out and Shanghai an audience, even against their will. I have no doubt that you will find that voice and focus it into crystal clarity. My father, who was also a published writer told me, "dare to be different, dare to bold" My fiction has certainly been that.

Tri

Thanks for the encouragement, it means alot

Tri and Mr, you are both great guys.

think your father gave you great advice Tri. I've been reading over your shoulder in the fantasy/fic, but palenantology (Sp?) is out of my league, so I couldn't contribute much that was helpful. Funny though, I do incorporate Archeaology in one story. I even took a crash course on the internet to try to sound like I had any clue about the subject.

And I thank you Mr. Mistook for your encouragement.

By the way, I'll PM you a sample of writing. I haven't forgotten. I'm planning on submitting the short story soon. It was a nice break because I just wanted to finish something. A friend is going over it for grammar and should get it back to me next week.