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Dusk

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Forgive me if I'm posting news that folks already know, but I don't see anything about this elsewhere at this forum. Here's the relevant news article from August 10 at Publishers Weekly, and here is the new service, CreateSpace.

Differences that I notice between CreateSpace and Lulu:

The pricing structure is hard to compare, but someone at the Lulu forums who ran the numbers concluded: "CreateSpace's pricing is almost always better than Lulu's for books sold on Amazon (sometimes by a lot), slightly better for color or very short B&W books sold on storefronts [i.e. through Lulu's or CreateSpace's Websites], and worse on longer B&W books sold on storefronts."

Lulu books have the option of being sold through various online bookstores (and also brick-and-mortar bookstores, though that's unlikely, because of the pricing structure); for that option, you have to pay a fee. CreateSpace books can only be sold through the U.S. Amazon bookstore; you pay no fee for this.

Lulu does a lot of optional hand-holding through such processes as creating a PDF file and creating a cover. I can't tell whether CreateSpace does, but it certainly doesn't have the quite valuable support forums that Lulu does.

For more comparisons, see the second link above. Also, a Lulu member has already put together a comparison calculator between the two services.

Running some numbers for comparison's sake, here's the breakdown in prices, using as an example a 300-page book that's priced at $15.99.

Lulu Storefront (sold only at Lulu site): $4.53 (cover and binding) + 2 cents per page + 20% of profit to Lulu.
Author's profit: $4.91

Lulu Distribution (sold anywhere - realistically, only at online bookstores): $1.50 (cover, binding, and set-up) + 2 cents per page + 20% of profit + 50% of total to distributors.
Author's profit: 30 cents.
Added expenses: $100-150 for ISBN. Optional $80 fee for corrections.

CreateSpace (sold only at CreateSpace site): $3.15 (cover and binding) + 2 cents per page + 20% of list price (not profit) to CreateSpace.
Author's profit: $3.64.
Added expenses: Optional $270 fee for ISBN (a block of ten - you can use the ISBNs for nine other books too) if you want to sell the book through other self-publishing services too.

CreateSpace (sold at CreateSpace site and U.S. Amazon site): $3.15 (cover and binding) + 2 cents per page + 30% of list price to Create.
Author's profit: $2.04.
Added expenses: Optional $270 fee for ISBN (a block of ten - you can use the ISBNs for nine other books too) if you want to sell the book through other self-publishing services too.

Lightning Source (sold anywhere - realistically, only at online bookstores): 90 cents (cover and binding) + 1.3 cents per page + 25% of total to distributors (you set your own percentage, but that figure is on the low end, for maximum profit).
Author's profit: $7.19.
Added expenses: $270 for ISBN (a block of ten - you can use the ISBNs for nine other books too). $95 set-up fee (for 300-page book). Annual fee: $12. Optional $80 fee for corrections.

Summing up the profits:

Lulu storefront: $4.91.
CreateSpace storefront: $3.64.
Lulu + online bookstores: $0.30
CreateSpace + U.S. Amazon: $2.04.
Lightning Source (online bookstores): $7.19.

(Anyone have anything to add to my figuring? Math isn't my strong point.)

Lightning Source remains miles ahead of its competitors in terms of profit. However, working directly with Lightning Source continues to be a hassle, because they're set up to work with businesses, not individuals.

There's probably hidden ickiness in all this - there always is - but off-hand, it looks to me as though CreateSpace is a strong rival to Lulu. The good news is that neither company requires exclusive rights, so (provided that you buy your own ISBN, which costs a fair amount of money) you could upload your book to both companies if you wished.
 

Gigi Sahi

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I tested this out with one of my self-pubbed chap books. Create Space is fulfilled through BookSurge. Sure, Lulu costs a bit more, but I find their quality far superior to that of Create Space. The front cover colors were bolder and crisper from Lulu. The body text print was sharper set against an off-white page, which I find easier on the eyes. Whereas, with Create Space the pages are stark white and give a bit of a glare. The text seemed a bit faded and the images on my front cover were fuzzy. Mind you, I submitted identical pdf files to Lulu and Create Space.

I had my book within 5 business day via UPS Ground from Create Space. Deliver took 8 business days via USPS from Lulu at a savings of just over $2.00 shipping cost. Create Space doesn't give the option of how you'd like your book shipped the way Lulu does.

What I like about Create Space is that they offer the 6x9 and the 5.5x8.5 novel sizes. Lulu only offers the 6x9. Also, Create Space will automatically assign an ISBN and barcode with a generic '9000' barcode for the price, and place your book(s) on amazon.com at no extra cost. Those services are extra at Lulu.

Bottom line:

Better overall quality: Lulu, hands down.

Better overall package: Create Space, hands down.

IMHO
 

Dusk

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Gigi Sahi, thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Veinglory, repeating what I said elsewhere: CreateSpace doesn't have an e-book option for the simple reason that Amazon only sells Mobipocket e-books, so Mobipocket takes care of the job of arranging for Mobipocket-formatted e-books to be sold at Amazon. Self-publishers can go through that process, incidentally.
 

Stijn Hommes

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Stijn Hommes

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I gave it a look and there's a significant problem with that site.
On the getting started page I get: "We are currently unable to offer book setup for non-US members due to tax considerations." I couldn't even use it if I wanted to.
 

Gigi Sahi

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Lulu ONLY offers the 6x9 novel trim size. I stand by that. They're site says so. Of course they offer other trim sizes, but those are not novel trim sizes. Those other trim sizes are better suited for mass market paperbacks, children's books, etc. Create Space offers those trim sizes as well. In addition, Create Space offers both the 6x9 NOVEL trim size AND the 5.5x8.5 NOVEL trim size. If you've ever self-published and formatted your own books, it should be obvious that a half inch in length and width makes a HUGE difference in page count and, subsequently, spine width.
 

Julie Worth

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Lulu ONLY offers the 6x9 novel trim size. I stand by that. They're site says so. Of course they offer other trim sizes, but those are not novel trim sizes. Those other trim sizes are better suited for mass market paperbacks, children's books, etc.


Huh? I've bought plenty of mass-market novels over the years. In fact, it's mostly novels that are published that way.

I always use the mass market size from Lulu (4.25" x 6.875"), even though it has more pages (even with 11 pt rather then 12 pt text) and therefore costs more. But it's cute, convenient, and my Beta readers prefer it. And an agent I sent it to emailed me, saying he loved it. He called it a "subway reader."
 
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Gigi Sahi

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Exactly - novels are also formatted as mass market paperbacks, a trim size that is also available on both Lulu and Create Space. However, I was referring to TRADE paperback novels as I personally NEVER purchase mass market formatted novels. The print is much too small and the pages are much too thin for my liking. The books I purchase are hardcover or trade paperback and they come in 6x9 and 5.5x8.5. I should've substituted the words 'Trade paperback' for 'novel'. I thought it was understood. Standard trim sizes for TRADE PAPERBACKS are 6x9 and 5.5x8.5. Lulu ONLY offers the 6x9 TRADE PAPERBACK trim size. Create Space offers both TRADE PAPERBACK trim sizes. Better? Sheesh!
 

Julie Worth

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I was referring to TRADE paperback novels as I personally NEVER purchase mass market formatted novels. The print is much too small and the pages are much too thin for my liking.

At Lulu, the paper and cover of the pocket size are exactly the same as the 6x9. The only difference is the trim size. The print size, of course, is whatever you want it to be.

Also, Lulu offers two sizes of hardcover.
 
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Gigi Sahi

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Well, that's true. But take my novel that I self-pubbed thru Lulu. (It's the very book I lost to PA, minus the typos they added, then later got my rights back. That book only sold 3 copies. While I'm aware that self-pubbing isn't the best route for novels, I figured I could do better than selling 3 copies by pubbing it myself).

Moving along...

I formated my novel as a 6x9 paperback with 1" inner, and .75" outer, top, and bottom in Georgia 10 with a .04 leading (using Open Office Writer). Total page count: 388. The list price is $15.95. [my PA book was 320 pgs and with a $24.95 cover price] Keeping that font, font size, those margins and leading, could you imagine if I formatted my book as a mass market paperback? I think we're easily talking 700 pages. Caray!

Now, I didn't buy the distribution package at Lulu because I learned of Create Space where you're automatically listed with Amazon. So, I sent them the same files and my book should be listed on Amazon in a week or so. BN even picked it up through the ISBN and Books-in-Print. [I have NO idea of how BN plan on fulfilling sales, if any. Amazon prints the books as they're ordered. That's why I went with them. I didn't have a clue that BN would pick up my book based on its ISBN]. I have my own ISBN prefix (a 10 block) as I enjoy self-pubbing a few projects of mine as a hobby (still have my day job). I also gave one of my ISBNs to a friend of mine. She did/is doing all the work on her book, she just didn't want to be "self-published" so by using my ISBN, my "press" is the publisher of record, and she's going to split her profits with me. So I guess I'm an accidental indy micro press now. LOL! This just might work out. Who knows? Stranger things have happened, yet I have no expectation of success because the whole thing is a fluke.
 

Christine N.

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One thing to add to this discussion.

I discovered (through a little digging) that the "ISBN" advertised on CS is NOT a Bowker's ISBN - it's only an Amazon tracking number, and useless anywhere else.


If you purchase an ISBN from Lulu (which you can now do thanks to their 'Published by you' program, it's a real Bowker's number, which means you get listed in Books in Print. If you buy their distribution package, you get an Ingram's listing AND an Amazon listing.

So if you only want to sell on Amazon, CreateSpace is probably okay, but you're NOT getting a real ISBN for free. If you already own an ISBN, you could conceivably upload the book to BOTH sites and get a free Amazon listing and be on Lulu's storefront. Not sure what that'd get you, though.

I wish they'd change that on the site, because it could lead to confusion.
 

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So can you use more than one of these? For example, Create Space for POD and Lightning Source for eBooks?

Alex
 

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When I went to createspace, their example of a 200 page book gave a profit of $14.85 for a list of $25. But they keep saying e-store. So is this an e-book? But I thought they didn't offer that?
 

Christine N.

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See, now their "glossary" says that the ISBN's DO come from Bowkers, but that they belong to CS and you can't use them anywhere else. But when my friend actually ASKED about them, he was told that it WASN'T a real ISBN from Bowkers, just an Amazon stocking number.

So I don't know what they heck they're doing over there at CS. If you purchase an ISBN from Lulu, I know it's a real one and I THINK you can then take that one and use it over at CS. Especially if you purchase the 'published by you' package at Lulu, which assigns the ISBN directly to you and not to Lulu. And Lulu has the distribution package you can purchase, which gets the book on Amazon and listed in Ingrams, which means a library or bookstore could order one if they had the inclination.

CreateSpace is just for listing your book for sale on Amazon.
 
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MarkP

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?????

Has anyone ever asked themselves why these company's charge so much for the author to buy their book that they have just sold?

Seems to be a serious flaw in the system.

It can't be for the great distribution they provide because we all know how few books per author are actually sold.
 
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Dusk

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"Has anyone ever asked themselves why these company's charge so much for the author to buy their book that they have just sold?"

I haven't checked CreateSpace's policy, but Lulu lets you buy your own book for the price of the printing. The price of printing appears to be padded to provide profit to Lulu, but one expects that from a middleman organization like Lulu.

"It can't be for the great distribution they provide because we all know how few books per author are actually sold."

There's a difference between distribution and marketing. Lulu is quite frank about the fact that it does no marketing of the books. Folks who want someone else to do the marketing shouldn't go to a service that labels itself "self-publishing". :)

As far as distribution is concerned, I've heard a few complaints about the price of international shipping of Lulu books, but Lulu seems to be trying to address that. Also, I've had a couple of entanglements with Lulu's checkout process at their storefront that I've brought to the attention of the staff; again, they've addressed those problems. Other than that, I've heard no horror stories about Lulu's basic distribution process. Its global distribution is handled by Lightning Source, a printer that handles the distribution for many small presses.

So what it comes down to is marketing. If a self-published book doesn't sell well, it's almost never the distributor's fault - the fault most likely lies with the person doing the marketing, namely the author.

Of course, there's a long tradition of self-published books that are intended to have limited distribution. My father, who is a book designer, once designed me an edition of the Gospel of Luke, describing it in the colophon as being of "an extremely limited edition of two copies, of which this is copy no. 1." :)
 

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I haven't checked CreateSpace's policy, but Lulu lets you buy your own book for the price of the printing. The price of printing appears to be padded to provide profit to Lulu, but one expects that from a middleman organization like Lulu.

I think it is a little more then padding. If the author provides the print ready pdf for the cover and the interior, what is it that lulu is actually doing besides printing the book and making it available on the lulu website? As far as I can tell, they charge additional to get in the other distribution channels.

Why should the "self published" author pay the markup on the printing of the book that lulu charges? They are not the middleman in my mind, they are the printer, unless the name lulu is worth a 300% mark up.

Don't get me wrong, lulu is good at what they do and their business model obviously works for them. I can't figure out why it works for the self published author.
 

Christine N.

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Lulu is just a printer. They're not a publisher. So the author didn't 'sell' the book to anyone. They wrote, edited, formatted and uploaded the book to a company that will print it. The author is the publisher in this case. And, just like any publisher, they have to purchase an ISBN and pay the printer.

If a small press wanted a distributor, they'd have to pay for that too. Granted it would be a better distribution company than what Lulu gives ya, but it'd be far more expensive too. Most distribution companies provide sales forces and such.

Lulu has overhead too - advertising, webhosting, employee salaries, etc.. So even if they charged you cost, they need to pay their bills. It's not that much they're 'padding'. And digital printing is more expensive.

There are probably cheaper places, but many are only open to publishers with more than one title.
 

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If Lulu is just a printer, why do they take royalties on the books that they are suppossedly not publishing and distributing?

Again, this is not meant to condemn Lulu. I just don't understand why people are willing to pay such absurd printing prices for books that could be printed for so much less. By the time the book hits the market, it is basically impossible to sell at a price where the author will make any money.

Maybe there is another way?
 

Christine N.

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They're not taking royalties, AFAIK. They've added to the price of manufacturing to ensure they make a profit. Just like any other retailer would. Does the bookstore take a royalty? No, they get a discount, sell it at cover price and pocket the difference. They're a business they need to make money.

The author sets the royalty price, as much above base price as they want to make per book.

I agree there are probably cheaper alternatives, but with Lulu, like many other places, you're paying for convenience. Lulu is easy and has a good product. I made up a 100 page book of family history. Included journal entries, b&w photos and a family tree chart. Picked a stock cover.

Cost me $6 and change per copy. Cheapest Christmas gifts I ever bought. Granted I wasn't trying to make a profit on them. But for something like my little project, it was perfect. No muss, no fuss.

Remember, like I said before...overhead. Each person is paying for the website, 'free' storefront (stuff like that is NEVER free, you're just not paying specifically for it), Google ads Lulu takes out, etc...

At the end of the day, a print shop is probably cheaper. But I found lulu to be easy to use and had no difficulty.
 
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