Character arc and story

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RylenolFlu

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Alot of the time you hear gurus saying how the character must be different at the end of the film than he/she was at the beginning, so I have been pondering this question lately: How many characters need to have an arc in a story? Now I know it would vary from story to story, but generally, is the protagonist the one character that has the arc and not the antagonist. Watching Gladiator actually got me to thinking about this. I think an argument can be made that both Maximus and Commodus remain relatively the same throughout the entire film. What about Maximus, besides his circumstances, really changes? Commodus remains the deceitful and nasty person throughout the entire film. Just wondering what everyone thinks.
 

ImagineAZ

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Most stories feature a protagonist who changes during the course of a film, but not always. Generally, if you have a protagonist who doesn't change, you're making a point with the fact that he never changes, OR you're writing a complicated but not very complex story, like an action film.

The Gladiator went from being the soldier and family man to being almost a hollow shell while he was being forced to fight. Then when faced with the possibility of facing the emperor, he found a reason to continue living. But you're right - he remained a man of great honor from beginning to end. I think you could say that the events of the story transformed him from happy to lost to focused, but he never underwent a real change of character.
 

gp101

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James Bond hasn't changed through what, 30 movies? I still love him.

That said, yeah most MCs go through a character arc that leaves them changed. Yours might not, depending on the story. An action/adventure would be more about plot than character (though of course you can't ignore character ever). The enjoyment of the story could be watching how clever, determined, strong your MC is while he reaches his goal. He will still have an arc, but it may not leave the MC a "changed" person at the end.

Like with Maximus. The honorable, brave general is reduced to someone with no hope, no reason to live. Circumstances then provide him a reason to live (to gain revenge) and he is a changed person once again, relying on his training and determination while he pursues his goal. My memory is a little foggy about the ending, but I think at the end he winds up very near to the same person he was at the beginning in regards to what type of person he is, not what he does (he's no longer a general but still a leader of men). Not 100% sure about the end though.

All that said, yeah a lot of movies have characters that are somehow transformed, for the better or worse, by the end of the story. Ask around for examples of movies where the MC doesn't change much by the end and watch those movies for examples, if that's the type of story you want to write.

Good luck.
 

HeronW

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I don't think a change has to be major, or there can be several minor changes that forces my MC to wonder why she's doing this, will it ever get any easier, will she always feel like she's losing even though she and her friends destroyed a great evil.
 

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One script reader said that there are three critical elements that all scripts must have: 1) Concept,2) Plot, and 3) Theme. And he also said that the resulting Character Arc will be inextricably intertwined with the theme. He used Liar Liar as an example:

1) Concept -- A man can't lie
2) Plot -- This phenomenon happens because the man's frustrated son makes a wish, and so now the man's job as a courtroom lawyer gets confounded by his inability to lie.
3) Theme -- The man needs to learn that his family should take precedence over his job.

So of course we watched Jim Carrey spend 90 minutes thrashing around with his inability to lie. And then by film's end, he learned that he needs to put his family first



As for Gladiator, I think Maximus was the classic "reluctant hero" because he at first refused the job of emperor, but by the end of Act 2 he was ready to march an entire army against Rome. It was a long journey for his conscience to get there. His arc was our following all of his many choices to get involved or not to get involved.

One of the most memorable of such choices he made was when he and the other slaves were forced into the gladiatorial ring. He chose to take on a role of leadership with the other slaves/gladiators and to show them how to fight together "as one." Then when he had the confidence of the other men, the tigers charged forth and Maximus and the other slaves defeated the tigers and it was entirely because of Maximus.
 
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Plot Device

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The movie Jaws had a very very bogus, tiny, little character arc for Chief Brody: stop being afraid of the water. It was quite itsy bitsy in comparison to the huge colossal plot of needing to get rid of the shark. (That was a Spielberg film, BTW.)

In a similar vein, Indiana Jones from the original Raiders of the Lost Ark had a fear of snakes. (Another Spielberg film, coincidentally.)

The recent DaVinci Code also had a flimsy excuse for a character arc: Tom Hanks' character was claustrophobic and needed to get over his fear of enclosed spaces. (A Ron Howard film, and Howard is good buddies with Spielberg.)



I guess the moral of the story is:

When your film needs to be primarilly driven by action and suspense, and you don't have time for one of those pesky character arcs, cook up an on-the-spot phobia for your main protag and that'll do. (Must be the Spielberg school of how to do a movie. But who am I to argue with Spielberg, right?)
 

ImagineAZ

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I think that the gladiator is a classic example of steadfast character. It was a tale of what a strong, simple, honest, honorable man will do when asked for help or when confronted with evil. Every decision was based on what he felt was needed, not on a change in his attitude or his views. Archetypal courage and honor.

In fact, he was planning to be emperor. He wanted to go home, but after his conversation with Marcus Aurelius, he immediately told Cicero that they would not be going home after all.

Powerful stuff.
 

dpaterso

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There was an odd moment in GLADIATOR when they almost threw Maximus's vaunted honor away. When he became the most popular gladiator in Oliver Reed's school, pleasing the crowds, he butchered four men in the arena as if they were something he'd scraped off his shoe. That was a cold moment that severely dented his hero rating. Gotta watch out for those little blips that can tarnish or ruin a carefully constructed character.

-Derek
 

ImagineAZ

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Ah yes. He seemed to make little of their lives.

My impression of that scene was that he was equating the enemies in the arena with the arena itself. He seemed to have little care for the enemies in any arena, as it seemed that those men were there by choice, as opposed to the prisoners with whom he fought.
 

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I just read the Gladiator script, and it says absolutely nothing about his demeanor or facial expressions or anything else during battles. It just says things like "Maximus slices through the enemies with ease." I think if the script was meant to demonstrate the idea that his sense of honor was wavering, or that honor was becoming less important, the script would have said something like "Maximus watches the body fall, then spits on the corpse."
 

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Fair enough, tho' this seems like a missed opportunity to show character growth/arc -- the merciless soldier learns to appreciate the value of life. Maybe they were saving this for the big arena fight with the former champion? But it could equally have worked along the way, to mellow Maximus's ruthless character. Honor on its own isn't enough.

-Derek
 

clockwork

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The movie Jaws had a very very bogus, tiny, little character arc for Chief Brody: stop being afraid of the water. It was quite itsy bitsy in comparison to the huge colossal plot of needing to get rid of the shark. (That was a Spielberg film, BTW.)

Brody's arc isn't getting over his fear of the water. Give him (and Spielberg) a bit of credit. His character is far deeper than that. The film isn't really even about a shark, it's about a guy finding his way in a new world that he isn't really at home in. He's afraid of the water and lives on an island - it's your classic fish out of water set up.

Outwardly Brody likes Amity, "Here, one man can make a difference" but he knows he's not particularly happy because he's both demanded and rejected at the same time. The locals badger him for every little thing but they think he's a sissy. He lives in Amity but he and his family will "never be islanders." He's the chief of police but the mayor countermands him at every turn and yet he's the one that gets slapped in the face by a grieving mother when her son dies.

He's a guy being pulled in every direction and he has no idea of how to be all things to everyone or where he really belongs. Most importantly, his family, who he moved for a better life is also worn down by the island - his son is attacked by the shark, his wife grows distant the more he tries to face up to his official responsibilities and by the time he goes out to sea, she is in tears and he's facing a very uncertain future.

Brody really wants to make a go of it in Amity but when the shark comes along, (which is really just a metaphor for the violence and bloodshed he ran away from in New York) he is forced to confront something that threatens to stop him from finding his place and settling down. He has to stop running and become what he believes he needs to be in order to get his life back on track, whatever the cost, whatever he has to do, whether it's going out to sea despite hating the water, looking like a bumpkin in comparison to Hooper and Quint or telling the mayor what needs to be heard - "You're gonna sign it, Larry. You're gonna sign it so I hire Quint to kill the shark," - would he have dared say that to the mayor at the beginning of the film? No. This is a man that is changing and by the end of the film, once he has personally destroyed the threat, after everyone else has failed and he's paddling back to shore, we are left with the distinct impression that once he gets back, things will have changed.

In summary; a scared man gets brave - exactly what you said - but that fear and bravery runs far deeper and more abstractly than you seem to realise.

And I won't belabour it but Indy's arc has nothing whatsoever to do with getting over a fear of snakes. It's about him realising he wants Marion more than the ark - that he wants love more than trinkets.

He initially seeks Marion out for an object, a thing, and discovers she has become something of an object herself. Soon after, he is forced into a partnership he doesn't want. Then, throughout the course of the film, he chases both Marion and the ark but it seems quite clear he values the ark more - tying up Marion in the tent rather than simply escaping with her, for example. But then it starts to get a little fuzzy. When he swims over to the submarine that has taken both the ark and Marion, we're left wondering who is he chasing now? We are soon left with no doubt as Indy threatens to blow up the ark with a bazooka - "All I want is there girl," - and finally, if there were any doubt left, despite his bad meeting with the government types at the end, he still chooses to walk away from the ark and leave with Marion. This is a guy who has discovered there is a greater reward is saving the people he loves over the relics that don't love him back.

I haven't seen DaVinci Code but saying it has a Spielberg connection and therefore a bogus character arc seems like bogus reasoning. I'm sure there's more at play in that film (however bad it is) than a simple case of conquering claustrophobia.
 

Plot Device

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Honor on its own isn't enough.

It was enough to

a) gross $450 million at the world wide box office
b) win 5 Oscars including Best Picture for that lack-of-an-arc story, as well as Best Actor for it's previously-not-too-well-known-by-the-general-public star



:D :tongue
 

Plot Device

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Aw ... Chris! :( You're usually such a sweetheart on these boards. But, ouch! I guess I hit a raw nerve/sacred cow with you by picking at Spielberg (and I love Speilberg, btw).

You analysis/defense of Jaws has merit. Raiders, I'd have to think about (beyond Marion, there was the added plot element of keeping Hitler from getting his hands on the Ark because he could like maybe conquor the world with it).

The DaVinci Code had the additional "arc" of Hanks' character feeling slighted by the statements made by Audre Toutou's father before his death, and so Hanks had to get over that perceived insult.


I made the "Spielberg connection" to be sardonic, not to be serious. I do love that man and his body of work and all he's done for cinema.
 

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Hey - I didn't mean to sound pissed. I just think these are clear character arcs.

Raiders, I'd have to think about (beyond Marion, there was the added plot element of keeping Hitler from getting his hands on the Ark because he could like maybe conquor the world with it).

"All I want is the girl" is all you need to pay attention to in Raiders. Compare that to his earlier lines, "I had it Marcus, I had it in my hands!" And it's quite clear this is a guy who's changed.

He kind of reboots to his old self in the sequels but the same arc eventually comes to bare; choosing to save the people he cares about over the object he's chasing.
 

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It was enough to

a) gross $450 million at the world wide box office
b) win 5 Oscars including Best Picture for that lack-of-an-arc story, as well as Best Actor for it's previously-not-too-well-known-by-the-general-public star

:D :tongue
Well sure, but are we lauding the film or jawin' about character arcs? (Or lack thereof.) :)

-Derek
 

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No worries, Chris! :)

I guess part of me is STILL taking personally a very polite rejection I got from a prodco last summer. After they took 3 months to read my script they said their biggest problem was that my main protag's character arc wasn't pronounced enough and he seemed to simply be a reactive character, walking through the adventure with no discernable inward change. I thought it was a plenty strong arc, but they said they wanted it to be far more pronounced than what I presented, and also didn't like that he was an ulitmately noble person (the same way that Indie and Maximus are noble) and they prefer a grittier main protag. I am now hyper-sensitive to a possible LACK of a BLATANT arc in other scripts, and so this thread in particular caught my eye today.

But I'm being read right now by another prodco. So the dream is still alive. :cool:
 

Plot Device

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Well sure, but are we lauding the film or jawin' about character arcs? (Or lack thereof.) :)

-Derek


Wel, Derek, get a look at the response I made to Chris just now (Post #17) and read between the Fruedian lines of that reply ........ ;)


... I guess what we're REALLY jawin' about here is whether a "lack" of an arc is indeed a "lack" at all. :D
 

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No worries, Chris! :)

I guess part of me is STILL taking personally a very polite rejection I got from a prodco last summer. After they took 3 months to read my script they said their biggest problem was that my main protag's character arc wasn't pronounced enough and he seemed to simply be a reactive character, walking through the adventure with no discernable inward change. I thought it was a plenty strong arc, but they said they wanted it to be far more pronounced than what I presented, and also didn't like that he was an ulitmately noble person (the same way that Indie and Maximus are noble) and they prefer a grittier main protag. I am now hyper-sensitive to a possible LACK of a BLATANT arc in other scripts, and so this thread in particular caught my eye today.

But I'm being read right now by another prodco. So the dream is still alive. :cool:

I think sometimes we mistake simplicity for absence. I see how people could assume that Brody and Indy are stock characters that don't change because there's so much window-dressing that comes with them. But I love Jaws and Raiders for Brody and Indy, not the shark and not the ark so there must be more to them than meets the eye.

And try not to take rejections personally. You'll end up putting a gun in your mouth if do. :)
 

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Fair enough, tho' this seems like a missed opportunity to show character growth/arc -- the merciless soldier learns to appreciate the value of life. Maybe they were saving this for the big arena fight with the former champion? But it could equally have worked along the way, to mellow Maximus's ruthless character. Honor on its own isn't enough.

-Derek

I actually think the lack of a character arc is part of the story's strength. I know I felt the power of that movie when I first saw it, and it probably emanated from the unwavering sense of justice that the gladiator shows. Perhaps we could say that revenge played a bigger role than justice, and maybe he would not have taken the same path if it was another family that was unjustly murdered. But even standing there dying at the end, his final order was to restore the democracy.

The only reason I'm laboring on the point is that it seems to me such a great example of what Robert McKee said about theme being demonstrated by lack of character arc in the protagonist. I finally get it haha.
 

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I guess this might be what made Maximus so relateable and well-liked by millions and milions of peope the world over. SO FRIGGING MANY FILMS try to tell us: "You really probably could stand some improvement to your personal conduct and your general outlook on life." But this movie said: "Maximus is fine just the way he is. But life sucks, and the suckiness of life and the evilness of others encroached upon his private little piece of happiness, and now it's his job to get society to change, not his job to get himself to change." And therefore, we of the audience vicariously were being told the same thing. I think it's reassuring to SOMETIMES be told "you're fine exactly the way you are."

Gladiator was very much modeled after Braveheart (in fact, Mel Gibson turned down the role of Maximus explaining: "I'm too old, mate"), and so William Wallace was yet another character whose arc wasn't one of inward change, just of answering the call to duty.



::ETA::

But I guess that's the trade-off, then (do you think?) A "perfect just the way you are" kind of a character CAN'T be permitted to live by film's end. Such a character MUST die perhaps. He's so perfect he's rivalling God himself, and so that makes him a messiah-character --a savior. And all (or most) messianic characters have to die. If they don't die, then they must change (or vice-versa). Agree?

In that same vein of thought, Tom Cruise's character from the Mission Impossible series has repeatedly been positioned as a messianic character, but he also never dies. Check out the imagery at the very begining of MI:2 when Crusie is rock-climbing. He turns and faces the camera while hanging by his fingertips from the cliff, and both his arms are spread apart at his sides in crucifixion-fashion. So what was Cruise's arc/flaw in ANY of the three MI films?
 
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nmstevens

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Brody's arc isn't getting over his fear of the water. Give him (and Spielberg) a bit of credit. His character is far deeper than that. The film isn't really even about a shark, it's about a guy finding his way in a new world that he isn't really at home in. He's afraid of the water and lives on an island - it's your classic fish out of water set up.

Outwardly Brody likes Amity, "Here, one man can make a difference" but he knows he's not particularly happy because he's both demanded and rejected at the same time. The locals badger him for every little thing but they think he's a sissy. He lives in Amity but he and his family will "never be islanders." He's the chief of police but the mayor countermands him at every turn and yet he's the one that gets slapped in the face by a grieving mother when her son dies.

He's a guy being pulled in every direction and he has no idea of how to be all things to everyone or where he really belongs. Most importantly, his family, who he moved for a better life is also worn down by the island - his son is attacked by the shark, his wife grows distant the more he tries to face up to his official responsibilities and by the time he goes out to sea, she is in tears and he's facing a very uncertain future.

Brody really wants to make a go of it in Amity but when the shark comes along, (which is really just a metaphor for the violence and bloodshed he ran away from in New York) he is forced to confront something that threatens to stop him from finding his place and settling down. He has to stop running and become what he believes he needs to be in order to get his life back on track, whatever the cost, whatever he has to do, whether it's going out to sea despite hating the water, looking like a bumpkin in comparison to Hooper and Quint or telling the mayor what needs to be heard - "You're gonna sign it, Larry. You're gonna sign it so I hire Quint to kill the shark," - would he have dared say that to the mayor at the beginning of the film? No. This is a man that is changing and by the end of the film, once he has personally destroyed the threat, after everyone else has failed and he's paddling back to shore, we are left with the distinct impression that once he gets back, things will have changed.

In summary; a scared man gets brave - exactly what you said - but that fear and bravery runs far deeper and more abstractly than you seem to realise.

And I won't belabour it but Indy's arc has nothing whatsoever to do with getting over a fear of snakes. It's about him realising he wants Marion more than the ark - that he wants love more than trinkets.

He initially seeks Marion out for an object, a thing, and discovers she has become something of an object herself. Soon after, he is forced into a partnership he doesn't want. Then, throughout the course of the film, he chases both Marion and the ark but it seems quite clear he values the ark more - tying up Marion in the tent rather than simply escaping with her, for example. But then it starts to get a little fuzzy. When he swims over to the submarine that has taken both the ark and Marion, we're left wondering who is he chasing now? We are soon left with no doubt as Indy threatens to blow up the ark with a bazooka - "All I want is there girl," - and finally, if there were any doubt left, despite his bad meeting with the government types at the end, he still chooses to walk away from the ark and leave with Marion. This is a guy who has discovered there is a greater reward is saving the people he loves over the relics that don't love him back.

I haven't seen DaVinci Code but saying it has a Spielberg connection and therefore a bogus character arc seems like bogus reasoning. I'm sure there's more at play in that film (however bad it is) than a simple case of conquering claustrophobia.

I'd just like to weigh in on a couple of points on the subject of Jaws.

First -- and perhaps the biggest point.

Stephen Spielberg is a very talented fellow. But he is a talented *director.*

He did not write Jaws. He didn't write the book and he didn't write the screenplay. The screenplay was written by Peter Benchley and Carl Gottlieb. The "Indianapolis" monologue was written by Howard Sackler, John Milius and re-written by Robert Shaw.

I can't tell you how much it bugs me when people talk about, "Well Spielberg shaped the character arc to be this, that, and the other thing" -- No -- the *writer* did. The writer of the screenplay, who created the characters, who invented the scenes, who wrote the dialogue -- he is the one who created the character arc (such as it is).

Not the Director.

This is a kind of lazy shorthand that critics use, wrongly, all the time. I just hate to see it being used here, on a screenwriting newsgroup.

Second, regarding Brody's character arc -- which, of course, has to do with the larger theme of this story.

This is a story that is, thematically, about redemption. Brody is someone who has fled from the big city to a small town, to escape from the dangers and responsibilities of that world -- and where does he find himself? What does that fear of water signify?

He comes here to escape the hard moral choices that come with being a cop in a big city - life and death choices. That is what he fears -- and instead, finds himself morally and thus, thematically, "in over his head."

And what happens? When presented with the first tough choice as Sheriff -- he balks. He makes the wrong the choice. Everything tells him that a shark has killed the girl in the opening scene. He knows it's a shark. He doesn't change his mind because he thinks it isn't. He changes his mind because he's pressured by the Mayor and his cronies. He goes along so as to not make waves.

And what is the result? An innocent boy is killed. The hard choices he tried to escape -- the "waters" that he feared, he now finds himself swimming in. He couldn't escape them after all. And he's failed, disastrously. And he keeps floundering, keeps trying *not* to swim -- let others fix it, the coast guard, the Marine Biologist Expert, anyone but him, and what's the result? There is yet another death, and his own son is almost killed.

And finally, he realizes that there is only one choice. There is no escape. In order to redeem himself, he is going to have to take full moral responsibity -- it can't be passed on to anyone else. He has to close the beaches. He has to get the boat -- and he has to be the one to go out into those waters and risk everything -- his own life -- to make it right.

And when he has finally made it right -- when he has embraced the full moral responsibility that he had been ducking all along -- then he is, symbolically, "no longer afraid of the water."

That is what Jaws is about.

(And the Da Vinci Code is just a complete piece of crap that isn't even worth thinking about).

NMS
 

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I can't tell you how much it bugs me when people talk about, "Well Spielberg shaped the character arc to be this, that, and the other thing" -- No -- the *writer* did. The writer of the screenplay, who created the characters, who invented the scenes, who wrote the dialogue -- he is the one who created the character arc (such as it is).

Not the Director.

This is a kind of lazy shorthand that critics use, wrongly, all the time. I just hate to see it being used here, on a screenwriting newsgroup.


Sorry, NMS, I started this conundrum by being a dark jokester this morning in this thread. My humor was ill-received and thus probably ill-conceived. My bad.

And I'm a huge proponent of championing Peter Benchley as the writer of Jaws. I mean no disrespect to him (and the other writers).

Second, regarding Brody's character arc -- which, of course, has to do with the larger theme of this story.

This is a story that is, thematically, about redemption. Brody is someone who has fled from the big city to a small town, to escape from the dangers and responsibilities of that world -- and where does he find himself? What does that fear of water signify?

He comes here to escape the hard moral choices that come with being a cop in a big city - life and death choices. That is what he fears -- and instead, finds himself morally and thus, thematically, "in over his head."

And what happens? When presented with the first tough choice as Sheriff -- he balks. He makes the wrong the choice. Everything tells him that a shark has killed the girl in the opening scene. He knows it's a shark. He doesn't change his mind because he thinks it isn't. He changes his mind because he's pressured by the Mayor and his cronies. He goes along so as to not make waves.

And what is the result? An innocent boy is killed. The hard choices he tried to escape -- the "waters" that he feared, he now finds himself swimming in. He couldn't escape them after all. And he's failed, disastrously. And he keeps floundering, keeps trying *not* to swim -- let others fix it, the coast guard, the Marine Biologist Expert, anyone but him, and what's the result? There is yet another death, and his own son is almost killed.

And finally, he realizes that there is only one choice. There is no escape. In order to redeem himself, he is going to have to take full moral responsibity -- it can't be passed on to anyone else. He has to close the beaches. He has to get the boat -- and he has to be the one to go out into those waters and risk everything -- his own life -- to make it right.

And when he has finally made it right -- when he has embraced the full moral responsibility that he had been ducking all along -- then he is, symbolically, "no longer afraid of the water."

That is what Jaws is about.

You and Chris both gave great analyses. Thanks.
 

Plot Device

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One more thing I want to apologise for in this thread: I saw Jaws in the theatres when I was just 10 years old, and it was the film that first sparked my imagination to truly look at the art of filmmaking. But I was still just 10 years old. The maturity level in my ability to grasp those deeper aspects of the movie just weren't there.

I have seen Jaws several more times since reaching adulthood, but not one of those re-screenings were at a time in my life (more than five years ago) when I was considering film as a career. So I was never (during those adult screenings) able to embark upon the same sort of deep-shit analysis of the film that I am now capable of via my (only very recent) formal film training.

I realize that some people in this thread are much younger than I am, and so their exposure to the film is liekly via the 30-year anniversary edition of Jaws with all the cool commentary in it that I keep hearing about. But for me, the bulk of my life-long perceptions of the film come from my very first screening in a movie theatre back when I was just 10. So I guess it's time for a re-watch by me.
 
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