POV question

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Ivonia

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I had a question about Point of View (POV). I generally stick to 3rd person limited, other than the beginning of the novel, where its omniscient (so as to help establish the storyline).

Right now, my POV focuses mainly on the protagonist, although during certain scenes (such as battles), the POV switches around from time to time so that readers can see what some of the more important characters are doing/saying (such as a conversation between two high ranking enemy admirals right before a fight breaks out between them, or the hero's friends protecting civilians from the bad guys a few moments prior to the hero arriving at the scene). I still focus mostly on the hero, but the only "outside POV" that readers see is stuff that's occurring immediately around the hero, not something occurring on the other side of the world (or galaxy in my story).

Can I get away with doing this? Or am I going to have to stick specifically to only the hero's POV (note that I don't want to do first person, as it would get boring pretty fast, since the hero isn't always at the scene of something interesting happening, and he doesn't neccessarily always arrive on time either, for storyline reasons).
 

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That's perfectly fine. You can switch POV as many times as you like, as long as you're not doing so in the middle of a scene. Third person limited just doesn't work with like that.

So, a POV after a chapter or white-space break? Sure. Go for it. Remember, your goal is to keep it interesting. Keep the pages turning. :)
 

Susan Gable

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RaptorBpW said:
That's perfectly fine. You can switch POV as many times as you like, as long as you're not doing so in the middle of a scene. Third person limited just doesn't work with like that.

So, a POV after a chapter or white-space break? Sure. Go for it. Remember, your goal is to keep it interesting. Keep the pages turning. :)

Actually, I occasionally do a POV switch mid-scene WITHOUT white space. If the scene continues, I find the white-space indicator to be insulting to me as a reader. If the POV switch is done well, and I'm immediately grounded into the character's head, then I'm fine with it - and so is my editor. Now, I'm against head-hopping, but I don't think one-POV per scene is the only way to go.

So yes, you can have other characer's POVs in your book. Most of my books have at least 3 POVs.

Susan G.
 
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azbikergirl

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In fact, if you believe some of the How To books, like Jerry Cleaver's Immediate Fiction, we writers owe it to our readers to use whatever POV best suits the scene. Jerry tells us that we should write the scene from the POV of the character having the most intense experience.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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Scenes

azbikergirl said:
In fact, if you believe some of the How To books, like Jerry Cleaver's Immediate Fiction, we writers owe it to our readers to use whatever POV best suits the scene. Jerry tells us that we should write the scene from the POV of the character having the most intense experience.

He's may be write, though this still doesn't mean you should switch POV in the middle of a scene, and changing POV too often gets awfully disjointed and confusing.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Susan Gable said:
Actually, I occasionally do a POV switch mid-scene WITHOUT white space. If the scene continues, I find the white-space indicator to be insulting to me as a reader. If the POV switch is done well, and I'm immediately grounded into the character's head, then I'm fine with it - and so is my editor. Now, I'm against head-hopping, but I don't think one-POV per scene is the only way to go.

So yes, you can have other characer's POVs in your book. Most of my books have at least 3 POVs.

Susan G.

Different strokes, I guess. I don't see any difference between head-hopping and switching POV in the middle of a scene. That's the definition of head-hopping. This turns any novel into an automatic wall banger for me. It always comes across as the writer taking the lazy way out. When a writer starts switching POV without switching scenes, I immediately switch writers.
 

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Jamesaritchie said:
He's may be write, though this still doesn't mean you should switch POV in the middle of a scene, and changing POV too often gets awfully disjointed and confusing.
I tend to agree. If we have a darn good reason for switching POVs (to show a more intense bit of action going on with another character), maybe staying in the same scene would work, but maybe starting a new scene would work better. See thread on Switching POV without changing physical setting. :)
 

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Jamesaritchie said:
Different strokes, I guess. I don't see any difference between head-hopping and switching POV in the middle of a scene. That's the definition of head-hopping. This turns any novel into an automatic wall banger for me. It always comes across as the writer taking the lazy way out. When a writer starts switching POV without switching scenes, I immediately switch writers.

I'd have to agree. Switching POVs between chapters is one thing, but doing it mid-scene strikes me as sloppy writing. I always notice it and it jars me out of the flow of the read. At times this kind of head-hopping is a version of telling rather than showing. It's easy to jump from one character's head to another and tell what they are thinking/feeling/etc. It's a bit more difficult to show the same thing from another character's POV, but it generally makes for a more dynamic and satisfying read. It's also the way most of us operate on a day to day level. We can't read other people's thoughts so we are forced to observe and interpret using whatever signals we can. Sometimes this leads to errors of assumption (which can create fun plot issues!) Don't underestimate the power of body language, intuition, and action.

Beth
 

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I have a mid-scene POV switch phobia. But that's because I write almost purely in the third-person limited POV. To me, if you write in that style, you simply can't switch to another person in the middle of a scene. It invalidates the very nature of the limited viewpoint.

Third-person omniscient, on the other hand...well, you're playing God. You can do what you want, and switch whenever you like. ;)

I just like to keep the reader locked in the box of one character's head throughout a scene. If my character is going insane, I like to portray the insanity from inside the character's mind rather than through the observations of another.

That said, I reiterate: Change POV when you need to. When it feels right. Above all else your job is to keep the pages turning.
 

maestrowork

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There're always exceptions, and some writers are very good at head hopping and that fits the story well.

I haven't read any 3rd person omniscient (meaning head hopping within the same scene) novels that I like yet.
 

Susan Gable

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Jamesaritchie said:
Different strokes, I guess. I don't see any difference between head-hopping and switching POV in the middle of a scene. That's the definition of head-hopping. This turns any novel into an automatic wall banger for me. It always comes across as the writer taking the lazy way out. When a writer starts switching POV without switching scenes, I immediately switch writers.

Like you say, different strokes. I define head-hopping as the FREQUENT switching of heads (POVs). (Hence the HOPPING part. One switch does not HOPPING make.) This "rule" of one-POV-per scene is a new thing in writing.

Nora Roberts, previously a notorious head-hopper (not that it impacted her sales at ALL!) once said that other romance writers were the ONLY people who bugged her about POV - her readers didn't care one bit. (Again, the sales speak for themselves.) Actually, she wrote more or less in omniscent POV.

Readers are not the morons they are sometimes portrayed/believed to be. They manage to follow along. Most of them have never heard of POV. Tell them a good story. As long as a writer is competent, switching POV does not indicate laziness.

I do not advocate "head-hopping" (see my definition) because it doesn't allow the reader to bond with the character well. Bonding with the character is critical for the reader - they have to root for him/her. However, I stand by the fact that switching POV once in a scene is NOT the mark of a hack - it's the mark of a writer who declines to go with this particular "rule" that someone, somewhere decided, started spreading like it was gospel truth, and after a while, everyone believed it.

That's different from a writer who doesn't know their POV from SUV, or who makes sloppy POV mistakes.

Switching POV in the scene beats rehashing the previous scene in the new scene just because you're in a different character's head.

Writing is great - one size does NOT fit all. There is no "one right way" to do it, no matter what some folks want you to believe. "Never use omniscent POV" one person says. "Never, ever Tell anything," another says. "Stay out of your characters' heads!" another warns.

Those are just some pieces of advice that are proven wrong on a daily basis in books being published right now.

How you prefer to do it, and what your choice is in reading material is totally up to you. :) It's a shame that becoming writers make us so much more critical as a reader. (I think there was a thread about that around here someplace.)

Susan G.
 

brinkett

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I agree with everything Susan wrote. Readers aren't stupid. Constant head-hopping is distracting and can break the flow, but if one character passes the POV baton to another in a smooth and clear way, nobody cares. Except other writers who are reading in critic mode.

Intentionally changing the POV within a scene in a fluid manner isn't laziness, it's a skill. Readers only notice when an author isn't very good at it.

Whatever works, as they say.
 

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maestrowork said:
There're always exceptions, and some writers are very good at head hopping and that fits the story well.

I haven't read any 3rd person omniscient (meaning head hopping within the same scene) novels that I like yet.

Can anyone reccomend a 3rd omniscient novel they did like?

Maestrowork, what were some of the ones you thought were done poorly?
 

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I just finished Marian Keyes' Sushi for Beginners (chick lit) with head hopping. It's a cute book.

Bel Canto, by Anne Patchett, is a wonderful book (except for the ending) with head hopping.

Dune, a SF classic, head hops all over the place.
 

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maestrowork said:
There're always exceptions, and some writers are very good at head hopping and that fits the story well.

I haven't read any 3rd person omniscient (meaning head hopping within the same scene) novels that I like yet.

I posted on this in the earlier thread, but it bears repeating. Thomas Pynchon does it in Gravity's Rainbow all throughout the novel. He uses the elipses to go from view point to another... and she couldn't undertand exactly what he meant by jumping POV in the same scene. It didn't seem possible. She once had a writing teacher tell her to avoid doing it... he had been in front of the class for close to two hours. He wanted to beat it home to them, do not change POV in the same scene.

You get the idea. Gravity's Rainbow isn't for eveyone, and the technique is very jarring and takes getting used to. However, the novel has been voted one of the greatest of the 20th century on many critics lists, and the writing is very accomplished throughout, so there are worse authors to study for craft.

- Anatole
 

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brinkett said:
I agree with everything Susan wrote. Readers aren't stupid.

I don't equate wanting to write well and with skill as implying that readers are stupid. In fact, it's precisely because I believe most readers are quite intelligent and discerning in their tastes that I strive to give them the highest quality product I can.

brinkett said:
Constant head-hopping is distracting and can break the flow, but if one character passes the POV baton to another in a smooth and clear way, nobody cares. Except other writers who are reading in critic mode.

And the editors a writer is trying to sell his work to.

brinkett said:
Intentionally changing the POV within a scene in a fluid manner isn't laziness, it's a skill. Readers only notice when an author isn't very good at it.

Trust me, there are plenty of non-writing readers who notice. They aren't stupid, remember? The fact that a writer can head hop "with skill" doesn't mean the writing and the story wouldn't be much stronger and tighter if the writer strengthened their prose and characterizations to a point where head hopping wasn't necessary.

I can personally name three people (none of whom are writers) who were once Nora Roberts fans who will no longer read her work precisely because of her head hopping tendencies. (And Nora doesn't do it nearly as much as she used to--I wonder why?) Sure, three may not seem like much, particularly if you're talking in Nora's numbers, but for a low or midlist author, those three multiplied beyond my small circle of friends can be a career killer.

Beth
 

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Susan Gable said:
Readers are not the morons they are sometimes portrayed/believed to be. They manage to follow along.

Just because a reader can "manage to follow along" doesn't mean they should have to. Perhaps they deserve better than just managing to follow along.

Susan Gable said:
Switching POV in the scene beats rehashing the previous scene in the new scene just because you're in a different character's head.

If the writing is strong enough, this shouldn't be necessary.

Susan Gable said:
Writing is great - one size does NOT fit all. There is no "one right way" to do it, no matter what some folks want you to believe. "Never use omniscent POV" one person says. "Never, ever Tell anything," another says. "Stay out of your characters' heads!" another warns.

Those are just some pieces of advice that are proven wrong on a daily basis in books being published right now.

Being published isn't a guarantee of quality. Low quality stuff gets produced in all walks of life and it is often tolerated. Eventually, however, the cream will rise to the top.

Breaking the rules is fine if you first understand them, do it for a specific reason (other than because it's easier than taking the time to try to find a better way to accomplish what you want), and do it well. While all mid-scene POV shifts may not be the result of laziness or a lack of skill in the writer, I do believe that many, if not most of them, are just that.

Beth
 

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The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books headhop a lot. Works out quite all right for the comedy though. At least to me.
 

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cwfgal said:
I don't equate wanting to write well and with skill as implying that readers are stupid.
Neither do I, which is why I never made that statement.

The fact that a writer can head hop "with skill" doesn't mean the writing and the story wouldn't be much stronger and tighter if the writer strengthened their prose and characterizations to a point where head hopping wasn't necessary.
Doesn't mean it would be strengthened if there was no POV switch, either. I don't believe that it's always possible to strengthen the prose and characterization to a point where a POV switch isn't necessary. Depending on what the author wants to get across, sometimes a POV switch is the better way to do it. Another thing I don't believe in is making blanket statements about what constitutes well written fiction. There's always a scene somewhere that will prove me wrong.

I've never read Nora. I don't know how often she head hops and how jarring it is, so I can't comment on anything related to her writing.
 

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I see nothing wrong with telling a story from multiple points of view. The change from one to the other just has to happen for a reason, and be clear.

In a work of mine, I have a big battle at the climax where I jump through the POV's of four different characters on different parts of the battlefield in fairly rapid succession, making about ten POV changes in total before reaching the 'big' moment. Each POV segment is a mini scene, each one building on the one before. I did this because there are numerous important things happening simultaneously, plus I believe (hope) it helps ratchet up the tension with each change. Each time I leave a character to move to another, I try to leave him or her in greater peril than the previous time we were with them.
 
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I believe there is but one golden rule in writing:

Whatever works.



I, personally, am not an omni-POV writer. But Larry McMurtery had a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, Lonesome Dove, that headhopped all over the place. I read it and I enjoyed it.



Plus, I believe Susan made a good point when she stated that the majority of readers don't even know what POV is. I know I never did until I began looking into this writing "stuff".



Dune was one of my favorite novels growing up, but I couldn't tell you the POV it was written in. I can, however, tell you who (character) the story (plot) was about.



I think, in the end, that's what readers really focus on: The Story.



If you notice, bestsellers are written in a very particular style. It’s hard to describe… straightforward, simplistic. Very smooth, as if the sentences had been worked with a very fine sander so that there are no sharp edges to prevent the reader's eye from sliding down each page repeatedly.



Often you’ll hear writers denounce these bestseller books and state loudly how they can’t understand how such non-talented writers can be published, much less bought by millions of people.



I guess writers are more attuned to the “craft” side, while the average buying public cares nothing for craft:



“Just give us a good story – we don’t care how you bring it!!”

 

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brinkett said:
Doesn't mean it would be strengthened if there was no POV switch, either. I don't believe that it's always possible to strengthen the prose and characterization to a point where a POV switch isn't necessary. Depending on what the author wants to get across, sometimes a POV switch is the better way to do it.

I'm not sure we're discussing the same thing. There is nothing wrong with telling a story from varying POVs and, in fact, some types of stories are much better told from a variety of POVs. What I'm referring to is the head-hopping that often occurs mid-scene, where at first we're in Joe's head and in the next sentence it's Carl's POV and in the next sentence it's Jane.

brinkett said:
Another thing I don't believe in is making blanket statements about what constitutes well written fiction. There's always a scene somewhere that will prove me wrong.

I don't believe in blanket statements, either. But rules do exist for a reason and before you break them you need to know why they are there in the first place and what they are meant to accomplish. I think it's a disservice to say it's just fine to change POVs mid scene if you want.

(And when I say "you" I am not referring to anyone in particular, just writers in general.)

Beth
 
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brinkett

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cwfgal said:
I'm not sure we're discussing the same thing. There is nothing wrong with telling a story from varying POVs and, in fact, some types of stories are much better told from a variety of POVs. What I'm referring to is the head-hopping that often occurs mid-scene, where at first we're in Joe's head and in the next sentence it's Carl's POV and in the next sentence it's Jane.
No, we're talking about the same thing - POV shifting within a scene.

I don't believe in blanket statements, either. But rules do exist for a reason and before you break them you need to know why they are there in the first place and what they are meant to accomplish. I think it's a disservice to say it's just fine to change POVs mid scene if you want.
Of course an author should always know why they're doing something--that applies when you're staying within the "rules" too. What I was objecting to was the assertion that shifting POV within a scene is always lazy writing, and that all scenes written without POV shifting are by default stronger than scenes containing POV shifts. And when writing in omniscient, the rule doesn't even apply.
 

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ChunkyC said:
I see nothing wrong with telling a story from multiple points of view. The change from one to the other just has to happen for a reason, and be clear.

In a work of mine, I have a big battle at the climax where I jump through the POV's of four different characters on different parts of the battlefield in fairly rapid succession, making about ten POV changes in total before reaching the 'big' moment. Each POV segment is a mini scene, each one building on the one before. I did this because there are numerous important things happening simultaneously, plus I believe (hope) it helps ratchet up the tension with each change. Each time I leave a character to move to another, I try to leave him or her in greater peril than the previous time we were with them.

I'm reading The Princes of Ireland by Edward Rutherfurd right now, and he's doing what you described above. I haven't reached the climax yet, but I'm pages away, and it works. In previous chapters, the head hopping was more limited. I haven't found it jarring, though I have been aware of it. It's effectively building the tension.
 
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